Simon Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 You made a positve statement, I asked you to support it. That's how logic works. It's not my job, nor anyone else's, to disprove your fiat declarations. Your fiat declarations don't materialize as standing facts until disproven. You introduced an idea. Defend it. Did you read the report I provided? If it's too much for your towering intellect; here's a shorter read: New Orleans' Charters You can find many other articles in USNews, NYT, etc if you take 5 minutes to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Did you read the report I provided? If it's too much for your towering intellect; here's a shorter read: New Orleans' Charters You can find many other articles in USNews, NYT, etc if you take 5 minutes to look. Haven't had time to research the actual study the article is based on, but are we supposed to believe that a study commissioned by The Network for Public Education is going to prove that charter schools work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Haven't had time to research the actual study the article is based on, but are we supposed to believe that a study commissioned by The Network for Public Education is going to prove that charter schools work? Notice the tone and words used. The Business of Charter Schooling: Understanding the Policies that Charter Operators Use for Financial Benefit CloseService Links Facebook Twitter Google + LinkedIn Pinterest Tumblr Reddit Digg Permalink Bruce D. Baker, Gary Miron December 10, 2015 Press Release → Media Citations → This research brief details some of the prominent ways that individuals, companies, and organizations secure financial gain and generate profit by controlling and running charter schools. To illustrate how charter school policy functions to promote privatization and profiteering, the authors explore differences between charter schools and traditional public schools in relation to three areas: the legal frameworks governing their operation; the funding mechanisms that support them; and the arrangements each makes to finance facilities. They conclude with recommendations for policies that help ensure that charter schools pursue their publicly established goals and that protect the public interest. Four major policy concerns are identified: A substantial share of public expenditure intended for the delivery of direct educational services to children is being extracted inadvertently or intentionally for personal or business financial gain, creating substantial inefficiencies; Public assets are being unnecessarily transferred to private hands, at public expense, risking the future provision of “public” education; Charter school operators are growing highly endogenous, self-serving private entities built on funds derived from lucrative management fees and rent extraction which further compromise the future provision of “public” education; and Current disclosure requirements make it unlikely that any related legal violations, ethical concerns, or merely bad policies and practices are not realized until clever investigative reporting, whistleblowers or litigation brings them to light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 New Orleans' Charters This 'source' is not a newspaper, but an advocate. From their "about us" page: Through five presidential administrations, In These Times has adhered to the belief that to thrive, a progressive political movement needs its own media to inform, educate and orient itself. That's fair enough, but to present their article as proof of Charter school's failure is misleading. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keukasmallies Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 One concern I had throughout my career in public education was reconciling the 19th century revenue source (tax on property) with the need to implement 21st Century techniques, pedagogy and objectives. Particularly since the public, rightly so, holds schools accountable for much much more than they were designed to deliver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Haven't had time to research the actual study the article is based on, but are we supposed to believe that a study commissioned by The Network for Public Education is going to prove that charter schools work? I've seen a fair amount of propaganda from both sides of the debate and I thought this report was the most even-handed, thorough and objective thing I had come across. If you're inclined and have the time, give it an open-minded look. I thought it was a fair assessment of data with a reasonable conclusion based on available evidence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 But it won't stop you from writing pages of drivel on it, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Did you read the report I provided? If it's too much for your towering intellect; here's a shorter read: New Orleans' Charters You can find many other articles in USNews, NYT, etc if you take 5 minutes to look. No, I read your original link, and found that it cherry picks data; and speaks to the "worst case scenario" which represents outcomes for a mere 15% of charter school nationally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I've seen a fair amount of propaganda from both sides of the debate and I thought this report was the most even-handed, thorough and objective thing I had come across. If you're inclined and have the time, give it an open-minded look. I thought it was a fair assessment of data with a reasonable conclusion based on available evidence Here's the thing about the story you linked - NOLA students' scores and graduation rates improved. Everything else was crying about the method of teaching, yet it showed far greater involvement by the students & parents. Which is the whole point in failing school districts. But let's shed a tear for anecdotal evidence that a soaring auditorium in one of NOLA's worst schools was demolished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 No, I read your original link, and found that it cherry picks data; and speaks to the "worst case scenario" which represents outcomes for a mere 15% of charter school nationally. If you have anything better (or even equally accurate), I'd be glad to check it out. Here's the thing about the story you linked - NOLA students' scores and graduation rates improved. Yes they did; and here's the thing about that. If you look into that statement you'll see that it covers all of NOLA, not just the schools taken over by charters. To my knowledge nobody has broken down (or published) the data far enough to see if there is any measurable differences between the improvements in the remaining public schools and the new charter schools. My guess is that, like the vast majority of charters, there isn't any real difference in their testing scores because if there were, one side of the debate would be seizing on it as evidence. Another thing to note about the N'awilns case (which was admittedly probably a bad example for me to have used because there are so many odd variables) is that when the agreement was put in place the city had two caveats; one was that the charters had to be operated by non-profits and the other was that control had to remain local. These are two things that are very atypical with most charter privateers, most of which are definitely profit-driven with no ties to the local district. So basically what we have is an absolute best-case scenario in NOLA, with the worst schools in the US struck by tragedy and then being administered by local charters who aren't driven by profit. And still with that best-case scenario, there's not likely any difference in the results between them and the more traditional public schools. The profit-driven charters who are only interested in stealing public money are not going to have even these negligible results when they implement their plans to toss out professional teachers and replace them with untrained wage-slave babysitters and focus their efforts on nothing but drilling students on standardized testing scores so they can claim "improvement". Meanwhile some self-interested jackasses are going to be raking in your tax dollars while your kids are given a McDonald's level education and communities are losing local control of their schools to people who are going to bail on them the second things get tough. Don't fall for it, man. These mercenaries are beneath your support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Say to my wife all the time if I did it all again being a teacher is a great option. Glorified baby sitting. Great hours. Great vacations. Almost impossible to get fired. One of the better gigs out there. I enjoy the irony of seeing a guy who complains about teachers gleefully bragging about how he would really just love to be one of the few shltty ones. Props on your mad hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 The profit-driven charters who are only interested in stealing public money are not going to have even these negligible results when they implement their plans to toss out professional teachers and replace them with untrained wage-slave babysitters and focus their efforts on nothing but drilling students on standardized testing scores so they can claim "improvement". Meanwhile some self-interested jackasses are going to be raking in your tax dollars while your kids are given a McDonald's level education and communities are losing local control of their schools to people who are going to bail on them the second things get tough. Don't fall for it, man. These mercenaries are beneath your support. And you say that 3rd preaches dogma? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 And you say that 3rd preaches dogma? Was it the "stealing public money" or the " untrained wage-slave babysitters" that gave it away. hilarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 And you say that 3rd preaches dogma? If you think that these people actually have your kids' best interest in mind, you're living in fantasy land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 If you think that these people actually have your kids' best interest in mind, you're living in fantasy land. If you think public schools have your kids' best interests in mind, you're living in a fantasy land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 If you think public schools have your kids' best interests in mind, you're living in a fantasy land. Like any other profession, there's a few teachers who suck at what they do. But the vast majority of them are dedicated and professional and do their very best with all the kids under their care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Like any other profession, there's a few teachers who suck at what they do. But the vast majority of them are dedicated and professional and do their very best with all the kids under their care. A few suck. The majority are doing time, adequately going through the motions. And a few truly make a difference. That's the normal bell curve in any business and schools are no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) Like any other profession, there's a few teachers who suck at what they do. But the vast majority of them are dedicated and professional and do their very best with all the kids under their care. Pssst.... Your bias is showing. Teachers, administrators, etc. all do what is in their own best self interests. They don't care about your kids. Edited December 11, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 A few suck. The majority are doing time, adequately going through the motions. And a few truly make a difference. That's the normal bell curve in any business and schools are no different. While that's a fair assessment, I like to think that most teachers hold themselves to a bit of a higher standard. Regardless, I think the issue at hand is figuring out how to get rid of the few who suck instead of tearing down entire districts and handing them over to profiteers with zero oversight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 If you think that these people actually have your kids' best interest in mind, you're living in fantasy land. There's nothing fantastic in understanding all success comes from motivated self-interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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