a key difference between the bills and the pats

[dave mcbride]

In the middle of this past season, there was an incident that shows a key difference between the bills and the pats. Sam Adams threw a fit when he was taken out of a game (one that they won). Afterwards, Jerry Gray spoke with Adams and effectively decided to placate him in the future. The consequence? adams played most of the snaps for the remainder of the year. Tied to this, Fletcher, Spikes, etc. persistently and proudly proclaim that they're every down, every game players who should never come off the field. And they don't. Of course, they (and adams) are good players. But let's compare them with the Pats.

 

Against the Steelers, Ty Warren, Vince Wilfork, and Jarvis Green played virtually the whole game. Roman Phifer was nowhere to be seen (he only played a couple of snaps). Why? Because the Steelers are a running team, and these were the defensive players who could best stop them. Two weeks later, against Philly, Warren played two snaps all game; Wilfork played one (or two - I'm not completely sure). Why? Because Philly is a passing team, and they decided that the best way to stop them was with 2 linemen and 5 linebackers most of the game. The same pattern has been evident for a number of seasons for the Pats. They get great production out of their young players from year one onward, and they expect it from them. It's gotten to the point where when a 5th round draft choice, Dexter Reid, can come in in the middle of the Super Bowl (replacing Eugene Wilson) at safety and play fairly poorly, the word you hear is "he may well not make it - just compare him to Randall Gay, Dan Klecko, Dan Koppen, Brandon Gorin, Jarvis Green. Guys who produced immediately."

 

Phil Simms earlier this year said that he visits camps and teams all year long and one constant for every team save one is players complaining about not getting enough playing time. The exception? Of course, it's the Pats. He said that it's amazing: the players never complain about not playing enough snaps, and that they understand and like the system as Belichick has set it up.

 

Let's swing back to the Bills, especially their front seven on defense. What kind of production have we seen since 01, when a bunch of rookies were thrown into the fire because of a dearth of talent? Anderson, Edwards, Bannon, Crowell -- they almost never play. The second rounders at DE obviously get playing time, but even then Kelsay didn't really contribute much at all as a rookie.

 

The upshot of all of this: when the Bills defense has faced good teams over the past two years, they've almost invariably failed when it comes to crunch time: the Pats in particular, who have sliced and diced the Bills three games running; Indy last year (who had a crushing drive at the end of the game; Philly last year; KC last year; the Jets this year [recall that Pennington tore a shoulder muscle in the first quarter of the second game]; Pitt; etc.). There haven't been many fresh legs or alternative tactics vis a vis the front seven in any of these games. As for the Bills defensive record this year, of course they're one of the better units, but recall that they padded their record this year playing the NFC West and a gift of 15 total yards from a horrible Browns team, but next year won't be so kind. If they're going to take one page out of the Pats book, I would suggest trying to figuring out how to maximize the unique skills of each player (starter and non, young and vet) and applying them in the appropriate situation. Tied to this, they should be telling guys like Sam Adams to shut the hell up and get with the program.

[Bill from NYC]

OUCH!!!

A very good post, however frightening.

Speaking of "placating," why was Henry allowed to stink up the field for 4 games with a budding superstar sitting on the bench?

 

Gray has been mentioned as a head coach prospect, but imo he is now starting to mature into the DC role. MM was a rookie last year, and hopefully he too will become more assertive.

 

The Bills will need this to move to the next level.

[Ozymandius]

great post

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Excellent analysis. This ahs basically been my thought lately too. The Bills are built on "me-first" guys. The Pats are built of players of a totally different caliber.

[Bob4Bills]

Well conceived post, Dave! Forward it on to TD,MM,JG!

[Bill from NYC]

Excellent analysis. This ahs basically been my thought lately too. The Bills are built on "me-first" guys. The Pats are built of players of a totally different caliber.

232275[/snapback]

 

Even if what you say is true, the blame belongs on the shoulders of the coaches. I like Big sam as much as anyone, but if he was insubordinate (and I dont know this to be true), he should have been suspended or at least fined.

Placating Henry cost the Bills a playoff spot. This is one thing I do NOT blame Henry for. It was the fault of the rookie coach.

[34-78-83]

I appreciate this thread and the time spent with the post but re: the defense I liken this thinking to searching for a tiny pebble on a beach when you can get your result by simply finding a large rock (IE fix QB and OL). I've stated before that I think any team should be extremely careful before making the Pats into a " model" for their franchise. I really think it's a unique situation that cannot easily be duplicated.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

I think the fault in your argument is that it overstates the case in a number of ways:

 

1. First it is true that the Bills D did not answer the call against a quality O versus Pittsburgh and was badly beaten in many facets of the game by the Pitts reserves. However, it seems to go a bit far to claim this one real and fatal problem is based in some broad D failing when this same D beats the crap out of weak and moderate NFL teams (including a few playoff level squads like Seattle on the road, the Rams here and NYJ in the second game. The inmates may be running a good but not great squad, but our D is so far from being bad or an asylum it undercuts your argument.

 

2. The individual players you point too as being problematic are among the best in the league. Spikes certainly deserved the Pro Bowl nod and Adams did too. Fletcher did not get the nod but simply led the team in tackles. As these players show all signs of being productive on the field, your complaints get reduced to wailing about style points. Do these style points impact team output? Possibly, but there is a "let me play" we want athletes to have in terms of their attitude or they don;t seem to be productive as players.

 

The item which differentiates the Pats and which the Bills under MM seem to be aspiring to is that the players are being asked and are being anxious to play O when they are defensive players like Seymour who has lined up as a blocker or play D when the are O specialists as seen with Troy Brown playing CB. One of the best things about the Bills this year is that MM seemed to respond to Adams wanting to play by inserting him in as a blocker in the red zone offense and their performance was upgraded. Likewise Bannan contributed in the redzone, and even Ryan Denny was used as a TE. MM is a rookie HC and it seems unreasonable to me to expect him to make a major change in the Bills ethic on a dime.

 

However, the Pats-like answer to Adams demanding to play is not telh him to shut up as you suggest but actually to let him play and prove he can contribute on other units. MM is doing this with good results as best as I can tell.

 

3. The thinking fan does not go too far in taking the story laid out by the media as the gospel. The Pats are special in that they do seem to pick up for each other as players and not back bite each other as seemed to be the case for example in the RJ/DF dispute and the negative ranting of fans around the Bledsoe case. However, be it Phil Simms or the rest of the media they do seem to gloss over some real life fights and negativity in Patriot land. When BB bollixed the management of the Milloy situation last year, it was quite amazing to me to hear some of the falry public scorn heaped on the genius BB by the Pats players. This had a direct and pretty large impact on their play and they got steamrolled by the Bills in the first game last year.

 

However, a couple of things happened:

 

1. BB publicly admitted he had been surprised and mishandled the situation.

2. The Pats suffered a series of grievous injuries to key players like Colvin and were forced to either pack it in or suck up for each other. It is a tribute to the character of the players they chose to suck it up and play for each other.

 

I think a key to the Pats success has been not that they bend to every whim of the management, but that they always watch each others backs as tammates whether the foe is th media or Belichick.

 

I'd take a deeper read of the situation if I had your views because they do not seem to spring from the full truth of the situation as best as I can tell.

[1billsfan]

I heard that David Patten wants out because of his reduced roll. I'm sure there are others on the team will not sit by as their careers are being spent on the bench. Especially after having already won their Superbowl rings.

[dave mcbride]

Well conceived post, Dave! Forward it on to TD,MM,JG!

232281[/snapback]

i would if i knew where to send it! and thanks for the compliment!

[Beerball]

Sadly I cannot disagree. Some very pointed analysis, good job.

[dave mcbride]

I think the fault in your argument is that it overstates the case in a number of ways:

 

1. First it is true that the Bills D did not answer the call against a quality O versus Pittsburgh and was badly beaten in many facets of the game by the Pitts reserves.  However, it seems to go a bit far to claim this one real and fatal problem is based in some broad D failing when this same D beats the crap out of weak and moderate NFL teams (including a few playoff level squads like Seattle on the road, the Rams here and NYJ in the second game.  The inmates may be running a good but not great squad, but our D is so far from being bad or an asylum it undercuts your argument.

 

2. The individual players you point too as being problematic are among the best in the league.  Spikes certainly deserved the Pro Bowl nod and Adams did too. Fletcher did not get the nod but simply led the team in tackles.  As these players show all signs of being productive on the field, your complaints get reduced to wailing about style points.  Do these style points impact team output? Possibly, but there is a "let me play" we want athletes to have in terms of their attitude or they don;t seem to be productive as players.

 

The item which differentiates the Pats and which the Bills under MM seem to be aspiring to is that the players are being asked and are being anxious to play O when they are defensive players like Seymour who has lined up as a blocker or play D when the are O specialists as seen with Troy Brown playing CB.  One of the best things about the Bills this year is that MM seemed to respond to Adams wanting to play by inserting him in as a blocker in the red zone offense and their performance was upgraded. Likewise Bannan contributed in the redzone, and even Ryan Denny was used as a TE.  MM is a rookie HC and it seems unreasonable to me to expect him to make a major change in the Bills ethic on a dime.

 

However, the Pats-like answer to Adams demanding to play is not telh him to shut up as you suggest but actually to let him play and prove he can contribute on other units.  MM is doing this with good results as best as I can tell.

 

3. The thinking fan does not go too far in taking the story laid out by the media as the gospel.  The Pats are special in that they do seem to pick up for each other as players and not back bite each other as seemed to be the case for example in the RJ/DF dispute and the negative ranting of fans around the Bledsoe case.  However, be it Phil Simms or the rest of the media they do seem to gloss over some real life fights and negativity in Patriot land.  When BB bollixed the management of the Milloy situation last year, it was quite amazing to me to hear some of the falry public scorn heaped on the genius BB by the Pats players.  This had a direct and pretty large impact on their play and they got steamrolled by the Bills in the first game last year.

 

However, a couple of things happened:

 

1. BB publicly admitted he had been surprised and mishandled the situation.

2. The Pats suffered a series of grievous injuries to key players like Colvin and were forced to either pack it in or suck up for each other.  It is a tribute to the character of the players they chose to suck it up and play for each other.

 

I think a key to the Pats success has been not that they bend to every whim of the management, but that they always watch each others backs as tammates whether the foe is th media or Belichick.

 

I'd take a deeper read of the situation if I had your views because they do not seem to spring from the full truth of the situation as best as I can tell.

232294[/snapback]

 

 

i won't respond to everything, but i will say this -- i'm not referring to d playing or vice versa. i'm talking about maximizing your use of possibly 12 front seven players on defense and using different combinations to beat your opponent. as for claiming seattle is a good team, give me a break. they would have been 6-10 at best if they had been in the afc central or afc east. same with the rams, who moved the ball pretty easily against the bills in buffalo in any case. as for it not being the full truth, i'm fairly certain my eyes aren't lying. watch some pats games and look what they do against different teams. the bills don't do the same, and it shows. did i ever say the bills defense is bad? no. they're actually pretty good -- good enough to dominate mediocre teams. however, they aren't good enough to play well against the really good teams, and a lot of that has to do with coaching decisions. don't get me wrong - the pats are an *exception*. unfortunately, we have to play them 2 times a year and they've won 3 championships while donohoe has been here. maybe their system is better than ours.

[dave mcbride]

I appreciate this thread and the time spent with the post but re: the defense I liken this thinking to searching for a tiny pebble on a beach when you can get your result by simply finding a large rock (IE fix QB and OL). I've stated before that I think any team should be extremely careful before making the Pats into a " model" for their franchise. I really think it's a unique situation that cannot easily be duplicated.

232293[/snapback]

fair enough, and i'd agree if they were, say, an nfc central team. the problem is, i have to watch the bills play them twice a year. that second game this year was one in which the bills were thoroughly dominated, akin to the KC game last year (another sunday night performance, by the way).

[Hardy Pyle]

awesome post davey boy. It seems like Pats pick players to play. We pick players to develop.

 

Bellichek had a quote about every player must find his role. No player is coming along for a free flight and a free meal to a game. Find your role.

[BuffaloBud]

One other thing worth considering is that when someone on the Pat defense got hurt they worked pretty much on a "plug and chug" system. Plug someone else in and chug along. Can the Bills defense say / do this (ex. Spikes)?

[Bill from NYC]

Soon, someone will come along and turn this great thread into a "I Hate Bledsoe"

thread.

Surprised it hasn't happened yet.

[34-78-83]

fair enough, and i'd agree if they were, say, an nfc central team. the problem is, i have to watch the bills play them twice a year. that second game this year was one in which the bills were thoroughly dominated, akin to the KC game last year (another sunday night performance, by the way).

232311[/snapback]

 

Very True... I also believe though that the Defense (or any defense for that matter) plays a lot better when it's offense can produce a first down in the 2nd half and not give up the ball in it's own end of the field.

[Hardy Pyle]

Bledsoe is also still a huge problem. Bellichek knew that. If we don't get rid of him, everything else is mute. He costs us games.

[dave mcbride]

Bledsoe is also still a huge problem. Bellichek knew that. If we don't get rid of him, everything else is mute. He costs us games.

232349[/snapback]

agreed. he has to go.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

Speaking of "placating," why was Henry allowed to stink up the field for 4 games with a budding superstar sitting on the bench?

232265[/snapback]

 

 

I think Henry played and WM sat on the bench the first four games for several reasons:

 

1. Care was being taken with the ongoing rehab of WM from his devastating injury and even if he looked great in pre-season and in the back-up role the Bills would have been unlikely to throw WM right into the mix as a fulltime starter.

 

2. WM actually was not producing in practice and on the field in pre-season and in the first four games like he was producing at his all-star levels at the end of the season. If you look at WMs stats in the first four games, they were very promising and great for a guy who had suffered a major injury, but they simply were not great production at the Pro Bowl levels he showed at the end of the season. WM's yards per carry were not that great at the beginning of the season (he was at about 3.5 or so for the most part in the first four games). As he and we began to have confidence in his durability then he quickly worked up to 30+ carries a game like he logged against the Fins and as he wore them down his production per carry increased, but it would have been foolish to use WM as the workhorse he became for game 1 on. Complaints that we should he would have done more if he had been used more also do not accord with the stats as the games he got in during the fist four was often due to cramps or an injury to Henry so he fact was our primary rusher in these games and had fair to middlin production at best.

 

3. Henry did not perform at the Pro Bowl level we want and expect in the first four games, but he did have some productivity. He mainly can be faulted for not stumbling over nothing as he headed to some holes but generally speaking he was OK but unspctacular as a runner and not a total disaster excet on the play he stumbled over nothing and when the NFL admitted he should have been given a TD against Oakland and MM did not challenge the call. He actually finally lost the job when he was hurt and we were forced to go to WM and we won and WM never looked back (though he gracefully said TH was still the starter until it was obvious after 2 great WM performances who the man was).

 

As best as I can tell form the stats and my memory, WM's development was not held back so much by refusing production to placate Henry, but by WM actually not producing a lot initially. To the extent WM might have produced more if he were used more, the stats do not indicate this as WM did get used a lot a couple of times when Henry was laid low and he did not produce at a level exceeding Henry's production in the game.

 

What seemed to be the case was that word began to leak out from the Bills in the 5th game or so that WM was now showing an extra gear in practice and this coincided with Henry going down and the rest was history.