Is EJ a franchise QB?

[1billsfan]

 

The point isn't who is better between Gabbert, Ponder or EJ. The point is that each of those QBs had moments where they demonstrated competence. The problem with all of them is that they didn't have any kind of consistency that would make them good starting QBs. That is the point. It's not about whether or not EJ had a few better games than Gabbert or EJ had some stats better than Ponder. The point still stands that neither of those guys have played well enough consistently to establish themselves as solid QBs. That's why, when you say EJ had moments of decent play I just throw that aside because just about every bust that has come into the NFL has had their own share of moments. Ultimately though, fans are going to interpret what qualifies as a "moment" differently.

 

I'm not going to waste my time trying to discuss why EJ is or isn't better than some of the other scrubs that never made it as a franchise QB. It's pointless and accomplishes nothing.

 

I'll just stick to watching the film and letting that influence my opinion on how I see EJ's career panning out.

 

Gabbert was an epic disaster. Ponder was more stable but he literally had nothing to offer an NFL team in regards to arm, athleticism, mobility or size.

 

EJ Manuel actually played as advertised, a project QB with high measurables who would probably take three years to develop into a franchise level QB (if he were to ever get there). He actually has shown a few true flashes unlike those two nothing QBs.

 

A point that's been made over and over again is that if before Manuel played his first game everyone was told what his numbers would be after 14 games, and there was a poll was conducted here on how those numbers were received, 80% would be looking forward to seeing him in his third year. Marrone was a disaster as an NFL offensive minded head coach. He was as clueless as it gets. Let's see what he does with Roman. I'm expecting to see a huge difference in his play this year.

Edited February 28, 2015 by 1billsfan

[FireChan]

 

Gabbert was an epic disaster. Ponder was more stable but he literally had nothing to offer an NFL team in regards to arm, athleticism, mobility or size.

 

EJ Manuel played actually as advertised, a project QB with high measurables who would probably take three years to develop into a franchise level QB (if he were to ever get there). He actually has shown a few true flashes unlike those two nothing QBs.

 

A point that's been made over and over again is that if before Manuel played his first game everyone was told what his numbers would be after 14 games, and there was a poll was conducted here on how those numbers were received, 80% would be looking forward to seeing him in his third year. Marrone was a disaster as an NFL offensive minded head coach. He was as clueless as it gets. Let's see what he does with Roman. I'm expecting to see a huge difference in his play this year.

Your hypothetical does not correlate with reality, that's why 80% would want to see him in his third year. It ignores the 3 injuries, the team giving up on him, the clear regression in performance by year 2, the lost confidence, the injured wideouts, and other things.

[metzelaars_lives]

What's hilarious is the amount of people, who are fans of this team, are enjoying the possibility of the Bills dismissing a young QB. Nearly every person who wasn't a Bills fan that I talked to last season consistently told me "your team gave up on that Manuel kid a bit early". These were Saints fans, Packers fans, Fish fans,Jet fans, Cheats fans, Charger fans and 9er fans.

All these other QBs being mentioned in this thread - save for Locker (due to injuries) - have showed way less than Manuel and their respective teams stuck with them for at least 2-3 seasons.

EJ hasn't exactly been absolutely phenomenal but he hasn't been completely inept. In his worst games he's still had some kind of production.

 

I don't think the kid at this point in time is a franchise QB but he's certainly not at the point where you give up completely on him either.

As long as he's on our team and has a chance to be our starter. I'll roll with EJ. Not the worst we could manage.

Did your friends watch the Chargers and Texans games? I'm not enjoying nor even advocating they give up on EJ. I think what's happening in these threads is that the EJ dreamers are a little guilty of liking him because he's on the Bills (ie. making fun of every QB that gets mentioned when many of them have in fact shown more promise than Manuel). Say what you want about Josh McCown- I did not want the Bills to sign him and am thrilled they did not- but do you really believe Manuel will ever put together a stretch where he throws for 13 TD's and 1 INT? I don't. Matt Cassel. Ha ha ha. I certainly don't want them to sign him either. But he has made the Pro Bowl and had a GREAT season with the Chiefs in 2010. Do you think Manuel will ever throw for 27 TD's and 7 INT's in a full season and lead his team to the playoffs? I don't. But admittedly, the EJ detractors are probably a little guilty of liking other QB's because they're NOT on the Bills. The bottom line is that EJ is going to get one more chance and one side is going to be able to say I told you so. I would be shocked if he develops into a franchise QB but nothing would make me happier if he did. Do you know what I think is possible? That he plays the game manager role like he did against Chicago last year and we go 10-6 with him at the helm. But unfortunately I think that's his ceiling.

Edited February 28, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[MarkAF43]

 

Guts, Seriously?

 

I have no problem putting my name one way or the other, but it didn't seem to especially call for guts. It's an opinion. On a message board. A snapshot of what folks believe at one moment in time. Millions of dollars, people's health, justice and freedom, things that take guts to stand up for, do not rely on my vote in this instance.

 

It seems to me people are mostly having trouble because the wording of the poll bins together people who think EJ irrevokably sucks and will never be an NFL QB, with people who think EJ hasn't yet proven he can become a good NFL QB but he's still in the "grey zone" of development where many a QB who became good or great looked squiffy. And the latter don't want to be lumped in with the former. It's like the Hatfields and the McCoys.

 

Toss in some confusion about "franchise QB" which to some people means "HOF-bound like Elway, P. Manning, Brady, Montana" to others means "those, yes, plus really good QB who can carry a team at times like Brees, Rodgers, Rivers" to others mean "year after year consistent guys who help their team win given the right pieces and system - long time starters like Flacco, E. Manning, Matt Ryan" and as we've seen, to still others means ">Tannehill".

 

So anyway, I think it's the way the poll is framed rather than guts or the lack thereof. But that's just my opinion.

I can get that. I. chose guts because there are far too many people here who want to throw in different scenarios and circumstances into play. I look at this as either you do or you don't, put your name on one side or the other and there are a lot of people who want to stay in the middle so they can be right no matter what happens.

[Bangarang]

 

Gabbert was an epic disaster. Ponder was more stable but he literally had nothing to offer an NFL team in regards to arm, athleticism, mobility or size.

 

EJ Manuel actually played as advertised, a project QB with high measurables who would probably take three years to develop into a franchise level QB (if he were to ever get there). He actually has shown a few true flashes unlike those two nothing QBs.

 

A point that's been made over and over again is that if before Manuel played his first game everyone was told what his numbers would be after 14 games, and there was a poll was conducted here on how those numbers were received, 80% would be looking forward to seeing him in his third year. Marrone was a disaster as an NFL offensive minded head coach. He was as clueless as it gets. Let's see what he does with Roman. I'm expecting to see a huge difference in his play this year.

 

Again, there's no need to go into Gabbert or Ponder because they are both scrubs. Saying that EJ has shown a few true flashes compared to those other QBs is simply hyperbole. You don't create the universal definition of what is considered a "true flash" for a young QB. Just like I'm sure you haven't watched enough of those other guys to be able to say that they haven't shown true flashes. And I'm not even here to debate the amount or quality of flashes, moments or whatever else it is you want to call it that these guys have had. The point is that just about every QB shows flashes during the young stages of their NFL career. Most QBs never amount to being franchise QBs despite showing flashes or having moments of competence here and there. It's not a good enough reason for me to just continue having blind faith in someone when their overall body of work tells me something different.

 

And you're whole poll point is also nothing more than hyperbole. Is that all you're arguments are going to be based on at this point? Goodness. And why is it that people keeping throwing around 14 games as if EJ is a rookie still? He's entering his 3rd year in the league so if you want to make a poll then at least don't be so misleading and include all the facts.

 

"Here's EJ's stats after 14 games. Those 14 games occurred over a 2 year span in which EJ suffered 3 knee injuries during his rookie year and was benched after 4 games into his second season because the coach and GM agreed that he no longer gave the team the best chance to win. Going into his 3rd season, that same GM and new HC have now declared an open QB competition because they cannot commit to EJ as the unquestioned starter of the team."

 

Marrone was a terrible coach but being a terrible coach shouldn't have anything to do with EJ's poor accuracy, anticipation and timing. Those are all talent issues that the quarterback is responsible for. Marrone isn't out there throwing the ball for him or having him fail to climb the pocket and keep his eyes down field. That's all on EJ. I think you're overstating the impact Roman will have on EJ but we'll find out this summer.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Bangarang

[1billsfan]

Did your friends watch the Chargers and Texans games? I'm not enjoying nor even advocating they give up on EJ. I think what's happening in these threads is that the EJ dreamers are a little guilty of liking him because he's on the Bills (ie. making fun of every QB that gets mentioned when many of them have in fact shown more promise than Manuel). Say what you want about Josh McCown- I did not want the Bills to sign him and am thrilled they did not- but do you really believe Manuel will ever put together a stretch where he throws for 13 TD's and 1 INT? I don't. Matt Cassel. Ha ha ha. I certainly don't want them to sign him either. But he has made the Pro Bowl and had a GREAT season with the Chiefs in 2010. Do you think Manuel will ever throw for 27 TD's and 7 INT's in a full season and lead his team to the playoffs? I don't. But admittedly, the EJ detractors are probably a little guilty of liking other QB's because they're NOT on the Bills. The bottom line is that EJ is going to get one more chance and one side is going to be able to say I told you so. I would be shocked if he develops into a franchise QB but nothing would make me happier if he did. Do you know what I think is possible? That he plays the game manager role like he did against Chicago last year and we go 10-6 with him at the helm. But unfortunately I think that's his ceiling.

 

I see Manuel having 21 TD passes and 4 rushing TDs this year and that being good enough for the Bills getting into the playoffs. Of course this is providing they do have a solid running game. With Roman in charge, I think Manuel gets his "sea legs" and becomes comfortable as a starter in the NFL this year.

[metzelaars_lives]

 

I see Manuel having 21 TD passes and 4 rushing TDs this year and that being good enough for the Bills getting into the playoffs. Of course this is providing they do have a solid running game. With Roman in charge, I think Manuel gets his "sea legs" and becomes comfortable as a starter in the NFL this year.

At least you have the balls to make a prediction. The rest of the EJ dreamers keep saying "14 games" and "we just don't know yet." I will bet you he doesn't get a chance to play enough games to reach 21 touchdowns as he will either not win the starting job or get replaced again. That's my prediction. I hope you're right.

[1billsfan]

At least you have the balls to make a prediction. The rest of the EJ dreamers keep saying "14 games" and "we just don't know yet." I will bet you he doesn't get a chance to play enough games to reach 21 touchdowns as he will either not win the starting job or get replaced again. That's my prediction. I hope you're right.

 

Thanks man. A LOT hinges on the running game because if they don't have one then Manuel will no doubt falter and the Bills will be "all in" in the QB market next year.

[DirtDart]

This poll stemmed from a conversation elsewhere. There are no "it depends" options. Do you believe that he will be a franchise QB?

I honestly think he can be a good QB in this league. He really has not been given a real good opportunity thus far. I am an EJ supporter. One thing for sure is I am tired of the franchise wasting 1st round picks. I think the sample size of his play is no way an indicator whether or not he can be a franchise QB. I am a firm believer they should bring in a legitimate veteran at QB and make EJ earn the right to play.

Edited February 28, 2015 by DirtDart

[metzelaars_lives]

I honestly think he can be a good QB in this league. He really has not been given a real good opportunity thus far. I am an EJ supporter. One thing for sure is I am tired of the franchise wasting 1st round picks. I think the sample size of his play is no way an indicator whether or not he can be a franchise QB. I am a firm believer they should bring in a legitimate veteran at QB and make EJ earn the right to play.

This is fair too.

[Fadingpain]

Didn't vote because there was no "Hell no, are you insane?" voting option.

 

Can't wait for EJ to be flushed from the league so we can stop this nonsense.

 

After the Bills dump him and no other NFL GM picks him up, maybe some here will start to realize that maybe we actually DON'T need to see him play 457 more football games before we realize he is horrid.

[Tampa Bob]

I tried not to be vague with, "Do you believe that EJ will be a franchise QB?" You either believe that he will become one or your don't.

Not sure I understand the confusion. Seems like a pretty simple question. If you stuck a middle ground in there, it would/should win by a landslide. I think people just like to whine about everything.

 

Regardless, the answer is of course not. Ej has zero confidence on the field. Franchise qbs typically show significantly more confidence out of the gates... turnovers might be higher early in their careers, but the tentativeness will kill you every time...just ask trent. The early slides, the floaters, the constant checkdowns, etc.

[Sojourner]

Did your friends watch the Chargers and Texans games? I'm not enjoying nor even advocating they give up on EJ. I think what's happening in these threads is that the EJ dreamers are a little guilty of liking him because he's on the Bills (ie. making fun of every QB that gets mentioned when many of them have in fact shown more promise than Manuel). Say what you want about Josh McCown- I did not want the Bills to sign him and am thrilled they did not- but do you really believe Manuel will ever put together a stretch where he throws for 13 TD's and 1 INT? I don't. Matt Cassel. Ha ha ha. I certainly don't want them to sign him either. But he has made the Pro Bowl and had a GREAT season with the Chiefs in 2010. Do you think Manuel will ever throw for 27 TD's and 7 INT's in a full season and lead his team to the playoffs? I don't. But admittedly, the EJ detractors are probably a little guilty of liking other QB's because they're NOT on the Bills. The bottom line is that EJ is going to get one more chance and one side is going to be able to say I told you so. I would be shocked if he develops into a franchise QB but nothing would make me happier if he did. Do you know what I think is possible? That he plays the game manager role like he did against Chicago last year and we go 10-6 with him at the helm. But unfortunately I think that's his ceiling.

 

The Texans game was a debacle, yes. The Chargers one? That was a poor performance all around. But these people I mention were not - for the most part friends. You obviously didn't even correctly read the part you highlighted. They have nothing vested in terms of this team, they aren't my friends so what exactly do they have to make me "feel good" about? I'm sure you'll come up with something.

Also, it's funny that you mention the Chicago game because if Kyle didn't get that INT, I guarantee you sing a different tune about EJ's performance there.

EJ's shown enough to fail and enough to succeed. The only detractor towards his success is consistency. Very few QB's are THE guy after one season's worth of play. Maybe the same happens with Manuel? Maybe it doesn't? As long as he's a Bill, I hope it does.

[KGUNBILLS]

The team averaged more points per EJ starts than any other Qbs the last 2 years.

I guess he's lucky. That's not saying much considering the extremely conservative offensive play calling. It just doesn't seem to me that he has the "it" factor. He doesn't possess the on field leadership to take the team to the next level. I don't believe that they can develop leadership. EJ was pushed into the lineup in hopes that he would succeed and that has yet to happen.

[Sojourner]

Not sure I understand the confusion. Seems like a pretty simple question. If you stuck a middle ground in there, it would/should win by a landslide. I think people just like to whine about everything.

 

Regardless, the answer is of course not. Ej has zero confidence on the field. Franchise qbs typically show significantly more confidence out of the gates... turnovers might be higher early in their careers, but the tentativeness will kill you every time...just ask trent. The early slides, the floaters, the constant checkdowns, etc.

 

BS. Brady once he took over hardly ever "let it rip" which is what you would be suggesting with the whole "confidence out of the gates"/"turnovers might be higher". Each path is different, there isn't a mold for how a QB becomes great - it develops and they grow into it.

The majority of what tends to kill a QB is not early slides, floaters or check downs but more often than not a blindside hit that completely derails their patience (happy feet/seeing ghosts) in games or one that costs them an injury that they never truly get over - the list of those types of QBs AND players is endless.

I will say the one thing I agree with all the EJ doubters is that he plays scared.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Smooth

[FireChan]

 

The Texans game was a debacle, yes. The Chargers one? That was a poor performance all around. But these people I mention were not - for the most part friends. You obviously didn't even correctly read the part you highlighted. They have nothing vested in terms of this team, they aren't my friends so what exactly do they have to make me "feel good" about? I'm sure you'll come up with something.

Also, it's funny that you mention the Chicago game because if Kyle didn't get that INT, I guarantee you sing a different tune about EJ's performance there.

EJ's shown enough to fail and enough to succeed. The only detractor towards his success is consistency. Very few QB's are THE guy after one season's worth of play. Maybe the same happens with Manuel? Maybe it doesn't? As long as he's a Bill, I hope it does.

You're saying if EJ threw for <200 yards in a loss, it would be a different story? Perish the thought!

[Sojourner]

You're saying if EJ threw for <200 yards in a loss, it would be a different story? Perish the thought!

 

Hahaha, perish all you want.

[bisonbrigade]

EJ is not a franchise QB, but can be a serviceable NFL QB. He needs to prove it this year or he's a gonner. Hopefully with an actual NFL coach he has a chance.

[Bill from NYC]

Do you know what I think is possible? That he plays the game manager role like he did against Chicago last year and we go 10-6 with him at the helm. But unfortunately I think that's his ceiling.

Do you seriously think the above is possible, or is this you being polite? 10-6 with Manuel starting 16 games? Really? When you say "possible," what percentage are you feeling? 5%? 10%? 50%?

 

If EJ starts 16 games and wins 10, I will be the happiest AND most shocked Bills Fan in the continental USA.

 

GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bangarang]

The team averaged more points per EJ starts than any other Qbs the last 2 years.

 

This is actually false.

 

In EJ's 14 starts, we averaged 21.5 points per game.

 

In Orton's 12 starts, we averaged 22 points per game.

 

Heck, even in Thad Lewis' 5 starts we averaged 20.6 points per game.

 

 

So with EJ leading the charge, we were marginally worse than an over the hill Orton who was retired before joining the team and marginally better than an offense led by an undrafted scrub who had 1 start to his name in the NFL. Also interesting is our team led by Fitzpatrick averaged 21.5 points per game in 2012. Can you imagine our offense led by EJ with him having to throw to a powerhouse receiving corps of Stevie Johnson, Donald Jones, David Nelson and TJ Graham? Whoof

Edited March 1, 2015 by Bangarang