gumby Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) Forgive me, this has been on mind awhile... There is an interesting Freakonomics article from 2012 that dissects the "defenses win championships" idea pretty solidly. A snippet: Another interesting bit: On the flip side, the list of "game manager" (i.e. sub-par) QBs to win championships is very small - Rex Grossman in 2007, Trent Dilfer in 2000. Lose a championship? Stan Humphries. Neil O'Donnell. Kerry Collins. Consider the rule changes in recent years - are they there to help defenses or offenses? Now look at this upcoming weekend: Brady vs. Luck Rodgers vs. Wilson Two of the best veteran QBs, both who have rings, vs. two the best young QBs, one who already has a ring. The QBs who lost last weekend - Manning, Flacco, Newton, Romo. I'm pretty sure if you look at the final 4, the final 8, of the last 15 years, the majority of those teams are lead by franchise QBs, not journeyman, not projects, not retreads. The point? Just like our Great Lakes brethren in Cleveland, it doesn't matter if the Bills have a top 5 defense, a young star wide receiver, good RBs, a good line, until their is a legitimate franchise quarterback under center, this team will be on the outside looking in. It does not matter if the Bills defense is #1 under Ryan. It matters that this team find a legitimate, young, franchise QB to lead this team. Anything else is a waste of time and will not move the franchise forward. Love Freakonomics. To anyone not sure what this is it's 2 profs from the Univ. of Chicago who use the laws of economics on non-economic topics. This thread has quickly gone off the rails. I wonder how many actually took the time to read the article. All it tries to answer is "does defense win championships." By following the numbers the answer is no because a top defense is no more important than a top offense. Due to the fact that top defensive teams don't win any more championships (or even playoff games) by enough of an appreciable difference than top rated offenses. In other words teams can win championships with a dominant defense or a dominant offense. Either or works, one is no more important than the other. That's it. That's all it states. I don't know why this is so difficult for some. Edited January 15, 2015 by gumby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey D Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I don't know how to link. But if you google Jay Cutler attitude or Jay Cutler arrogance or Jay Cutler detested you'll find everything you need. He is voted the second most hated athlete in America, just after Lance Armstrong. Sorry about my technological limitations. You have to be joking. There's about a dozen of these. Bears fear a potential Cutler mutiny Jay Cutler's attitude criticized by ex-Chicago Bear Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) You have to be joking. There's about a dozen of these. Bears fear a potential Cutler mutiny Jay Cutler's attitude criticized by ex-Chicago Bear From your first link. Last night’s sideline incident with left tackle J’Marcus Webb, which featured Cutler swearing at and bumping the much bigger Webb, has created concerns within the organization that the players could eventually turn on Cutler, for good. It’s not the first time a quarterback has had relationship issues in the locker room. We’ve heard for years that Ben Roethlisberger had been (and still may be) persona non grata in Pittsburgh. Wow, he yelled at his offensive line? Remember Peyton being restrained from attacking Saturday? Or Brady's weekly antics? And look, Big Ben is hated in Pittsburgh, allegedly. From the second. "There is no good to Jay, there is no smiling. All we see is when he is pissed off, when he is angry and that reflects in the way people might view him in the locker room. But a guy like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, genuinely they are nice people and they overextend themselves. Tom Brady can be the biggest diva in the world -- he has that right, he has won Super Bowls -- but he is not that guy. I think that is why he is even more likeable." Hall of Fame quarterback Terry Bradshaw even piled on. He said much of this could have been avoided if Cutler were was more judicious with his words to the media. Much of this could be avoided if he was nicer to the media. Hmm, where have I seen the media piling on a guy because he doesn't like talking to them?. Oh, maybe it's the hundreds of athletes who have hated talking to the media. Don't see anything about him being detested by his team mates though. Edited January 15, 2015 by FireChan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey D Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 From your first link. Last night’s sideline incident with left tackle J’Marcus Webb, which featured Cutler swearing at and bumping the much bigger Webb, has created concerns within the organization that the players could eventually turn on Cutler, for good. It’s not the first time a quarterback has had relationship issues in the locker room. We’ve heard for years that Ben Roethlisberger had been (and still may be) persona non grata in Pittsburgh. Wow, he yelled at his offensive line? Remember Peyton being restrained from attacking Saturday? Or Brady's weekly antics? And look, Big Ben is hated in Pittsburgh, allegedly. From the second. "There is no good to Jay, there is no smiling. All we see is when he is pissed off, when he is angry and that reflects in the way people might view him in the locker room. But a guy like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, genuinely they are nice people and they overextend themselves. Tom Brady can be the biggest diva in the world -- he has that right, he has won Super Bowls -- but he is not that guy. I think that is why he is even more likeable." Hall of Fame quarterback Terry Bradshaw even piled on. He said much of this could have been avoided if Cutler were was more judicious with his words to the media. Much of this could be avoided if he was nicer to the media. Hmm, where have I seen the media piling on a guy because he doesn't like talking to them?. Oh, maybe it's the hundreds of athletes who have hated talking to the media. Don't see anything about him being detested by his team mates though. Why do you want to like a guy who is widely despised? I mean why do you rationalize this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Why do you want to like a guy who is widely despised? I mean why do you rationalize this? He's not widely despised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 If you read the article, they did analyze regular season numbers. And it's essentially a wash, meaning having a great defense is a 50/50 proposition. I did read the article. They analyzed regular season RANKINGS, not production. And furthermore, as one of the comments to the article astutely stated, offense and defense are not independent. A good offense that builds a large lead can simplify the defense's job by forcing the opposing offense into a one-dimensional attack. Conversely, a good defense can force an advantage in field position that benefits the offense. The "analysis" is nothing of the sort. It's just shallow accounting. It's not surprising the result they got is "there's no meaningful advantage to defense," since they didn't do a meaningful study. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkington Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Hopefully our front office reads TBD and now fully realizes that we need an elite QB. They've been asleep at the wheel for too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey D Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 He's not widely despised. OK... that's the problem now days, everyone feels entitled to their own facts. Hard to have a meaningful discussion. But if Cutler had Flacco's drive, determination leadership skills and personality, then I would agree you might be on to something. Hopefully our front office reads TBD and now fully realizes that we need an elite QB. They've been asleep at the wheel for too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 OK... that's the problem now days, everyone feels entitled to their own facts. Hard to have a meaningful discussion. But if Cutler had Flacco's drive, determination leadership skills and personality, then I would agree you might be on to something. You can't support any of your claims because you claim to not know how to copy paste, and I'm the problem. Also, Joe is such a leader, his team was shocked that he made a halftime speech this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey D Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 You can't support any of your claims because you claim to not know how to copy paste, and I'm the problem. Also, Joe is such a leader, his team was shocked that he made a halftime speech this season. Wow, you are amazing-- it's like proving to you water is wet. Are you Cutler's mom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QCity Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Don't see anything about him being detested by his team mates though. Well ok then. Hopefully our front office reads TBD and now fully realizes that we need an elite QB. They've been asleep at the wheel for too long. Sarcasm aside, the front office has butchered the position over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Wow, you are amazing-- it's like proving to you water is wet. Are you Cutler's mom? You don't know how to prove water is wet? That's a layup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 (edited) I did not state absolutes, but I'm not just talking about Super Bowls, I'm talking about making the playoffs. Marino did that a few times, so has Manning. You're right, there is no perfect way, but the "defense wins championships" canard that is being bandied about is not going to get this team over the hump they've been stuck on for 15 years. LMAO, you said you didn't state absolutes, yet you just did it again. I put it in bold for you. You just said that there are many ways to do it, but using a top Defense won't do it all of a sudden because its the Bills. So you just declared that defense can NOT and will NOT win a championship for us despite the fact its happened many times in the past and you even provided evidence of such in your original post. Here is the last sentence of your original post where you state that even if we have the #1 defense in football, we can NOT win a championship. It does not matter if the Bills defense is #1 under Ryan. It matters that this team find a legitimate, young, franchise QB to lead this team. Anything else is a waste of time and will not move the franchise forward. LOL, so again, you keep stating how defense CAN win championships all over your first post and then reply to me and acknowledge there are many ways to win a championship, yet you keep absolutely declaring the Buffalo Bills can not win, and will not win a championship this way. So you rather you want to admit it or not, you keep talking in absolutes about what we can't do despite proving it can be done and has been done, many many times. Edited January 15, 2015 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey D Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 You don't know how to prove water is wet? That's a layup. Take care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I don't know. The Dolphins defense has been quite good, and the team is stuck at 8-8. Tannehill is the picture of average. Last couple years have been very different teams with the same record. Good defense last year with an OL that made ours look like the '93 Cowboys. This yr the OL was better but the D collapsed at the end. Not that I really disagree that he's average. Average QBs are underrated assets though (strictly defined as 16th or 17th best). We haven't had that in a very long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 You don't know how to prove water is wet? That's a layup. That's a tautology. Water defines "wet." It's basically an a priori assumption, and not provable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casey D Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 That's a tautology. Water defines "wet." It's basically an a priori assumption, and not provable. Exactly. Like Cutler is an a-hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 That's a tautology. Water defines "wet." It's basically an a priori assumption, and not provable. What does Hoth wildlife have to do with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
die hard bills fan Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 The article is really stating the obvious. The franchise quarterback is your ace in the hole, as long as you have one you are in contention to win it all year after year regardless of the rest of your team. (Patriots-Brady, Manning -colts/broncos, Roth.-steelers) A great defense alone can win a SB occasionally but great defenses require more players and is harder to maintain yearly. So I agree if you have a choice between a franchise quarterback vs a great D you take the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Did I say that? Are you inferring he's not a franchise QB? He's ridiculous efficient, is a dangerous runner, has a good arm and is in another championship game. If the Bills had drafted Wilson, I don't know he would have developed the same way, but he's far better than any QB who has been on the Bills roster since Jim Kelly, and yes, I'm including Bledsoe. But not a guy that carries a team by himself. Point is, Seattle's defense and an efficient offense (read power running and occasional passing) wins the day. That's what the Bills should be buidling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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