1billsfan Posted February 3, 2005 Author Share Posted February 3, 2005 Because that statement is so assanie that it merits that sort of response. Brady, Manning, McNabb, Farve, (and I can't believe I'm saying this) even Vick are the class of the league. On the second tier of QBs (this year) you have Culpepper, Breese, and McNair. Of those 8 QBs you have 3 or 4 HOFs, but McNair isn't one of them. (For sure HOF: Brady, Manning, Farve). His career numbers don't merit consideration for the HOF, he has never gotten a ring DESPITE having been on playoff teams for the past half a decade. And he's more fragile than ICE's ego. (come on, that was a little funny). Is he a good QB? Sure. Is he better than Drew or JP? Absolutley. But is he the best in the league? No friggin way. Do you honestly expect McNair to end up in the HOF? 227414[/snapback] As I said before you seem to know little about football. What you do know you probably learned from ESPN and Fox Sports. In a playoff game I would take a healthy Steve McNair over Manning, Farve and Vick any day of the week. I would take him over all three for the whole season if I knew he would be healthy. I'm not looking for a player based on if he will get into the Hall of Fame. Who would you rather have? A Jim Kelly HOFer but winless in the big one, or a Jim Plunkett non-HOFer but had given the Bills a couple of Superbowl rings? I'd rather have Plunkett and the rings baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 As I said before you seem to know little about football. What you do know you probably learned from ESPN and Fox Sports. In a playoff game I would take a healthy Steve McNair over Manning, Farve and Vick any day of the week. I would take him over all three for the whole season if I knew he would be healthy. I'm not looking for a player based on if he will get into the Hall of Fame. Who would you rather have? A Jim Kelly HOFer but winless in the big one, or a Jim Plunkett non-HOFer but had given the Bills a couple of Superbowl rings? I'd rather have Plunkett and the rings baby. 227463[/snapback] Plunkett wouldn't have changed the results of any of those SBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 As I said before you seem to know little about football. What you do know you probably learned from ESPN and Fox Sports. In a playoff game I would take a healthy Steve McNair over Manning, Farve and Vick any day of the week. I would take him over all three for the whole season if I knew he would be healthy. I'm not looking for a player based on if he will get into the Hall of Fame. Who would you rather have? A Jim Kelly HOFer but winless in the big one, or a Jim Plunkett non-HOFer but had given the Bills a couple of Superbowl rings? I'd rather have Plunkett and <a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=5&k=the%20rings"'>http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=5&k=the%20rings"'>http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=5&k=the%20rings" onmouseover="window.status='<a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=5&k=the%20rings" onmouseover="window.status='<a style='text-decoration: none; border-bottom: 3px double;' href="http://www.serverlogic3.com/lm/rtl3.asp?si=5&k=the%20rings" onmouseover="window.status='the rings'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">the rings</a>'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">the rings</a>'; return true;" onmouseout="window.status=''; return true;">the rings</a> baby. 227463[/snapback] It's pointless to argue about who knows more about football. How imature and insane is that? What if my point of view comes from playing the game in HS and College and covering the sport for Radio and Print? Is my opinion worth any more than you because of my background? Of course not. Still, as I said McNair is good, but not great. Kelly was great. Farve is great. Brady is great. Manning is great. McNair has one MVP and one Super Bowl performance. That's it. I have watched him since college and he has never scared me. Not once. Here's how I define a great QB. It's simple. And it has nothing to do with stats or rings. It has to do with leadership and clutch. Here's the test: down by 4, 2 minutes left with no timeouts on your own 20 yardline...who do you want under center? Lots of names come to mind: Kelly, Farve, Elway, Montana, Brady, Manning, Unitus, Bradshaw, Namath...but not McNair. As for the comments that he has only been hurt this year. That's a gross understatment. The guy has hardly EVER had a season where he hasn't suffered an injury. This season was his most severe, but he is always on the injured list. BUT the guy has grit. He plays through it. That's swell. I'll still take Brady or Manning over him any day of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted February 3, 2005 Author Share Posted February 3, 2005 Plunkett wouldn't have changed the results of any of those SBs. 227471[/snapback] I didn't say he would have. I was arguing hypothetically that having a HOF QB who never won the big one is never as big as having a QB that one it twice who will never get in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted February 3, 2005 Author Share Posted February 3, 2005 It's pointless to argue about who knows more about football. How imature and insane is that? What if my point of view comes from playing the game in HS and College and covering the sport for Radio and Print? Is my opinion worth any more than you because of my background? Of course not. Still, as I said McNair is good, but not great. Kelly was great. Farve is great. Brady is great. Manning is great. McNair has one MVP and one Super Bowl performance. That's it. I have watched him since college and he has never scared me. Not once. Here's how I define a great QB. It's simple. And it has nothing to do with stats or rings. It has to do with leadership and clutch. Here's the test: down by 4, 2 minutes left with no timeouts on your own 20 yardline...who do you want under center? Lots of names come to mind: Kelly, Farve, Elway, Montana, Brady, Manning, Unitus, Bradshaw, Namath...but not McNair. As for the comments that he has only been hurt this year. That's a gross understatment. The guy has hardly EVER had a season where he hasn't suffered an injury. This season was his most severe, but he is always on the injured list. BUT the guy has grit. He plays through it. That's swell. I'll still take Brady or Manning over him any day of the week. 227486[/snapback] About as immature and insane as saying that Steve McNair was never one of the best QBs in the league. Try he was one of the best 4 years in a row starting with the 2000 season. You saying that McNair is not clutch is really what's lunacy. He made a freaking career out of being clutch QB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimBob2232 Posted February 3, 2005 Share Posted February 3, 2005 Amazing post. McNair is contemplating RETIREMENT. JP is a ROOKIE. No GM in this league would make this deal. This is INSANITY. Drew for McNair...perhaps. But i dont see why tennessee would do it, other than to have someone around for a few extra years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 About as immature and insane as saying that Steve McNair was never one of the best QBs in the league. Try he was one of the best 4 years in a row starting with the 2000 season. You saying that McNair is not clutch is really what's lunacy. He made a freaking career out of being clutch QB! 227510[/snapback] Here's a better view of what I'm saying based on the names we've been throwing around: Career QB Rating 1) Culpepper: 93.2 2) Manning: 92.3 3) Pennington: 93.7 4) Brady: 87.5 5) Favre: 87.4 6) McNair: 86.2 7) McNabb: 83.9 8) Hasslebeck: 83.7 9) Vick: 76.7 10) *Drew: 76.7 *Just for fun Now, let's look at the average QB Ratings for the stretch you are talking about, 2000-2004. In parens I've included their highest and lowest QB ratings. Very illuminating stuff: 2000-2004 Rating Average: 1) Manning: 97.5 (84.1 / 121.1) 2) Culpepper: 92.8 (75.3 / 110.9) 3) *Pennington: 92.7 (82.9 / 104.2) -3 year stretch 4) Favre: 88.1 (78.0 / 94.1) 5) *Brady: 87.7 (85.7 / 92.6) - 4 year stretch 6) McNabb: 86.6 (77.8 / 104.7) 7) McNair: 86.2 (83.2 /100.4) 8) *Hasslebeck: 82.7 (70.9 / 88.8) -4 year stretch 9) *Drew: 78.2 (73.0 / 86.0) -4 year stretch 10) *Vick: 72.8 (62.7 / 81.6) -4year stretch This shows a couple of things. First, and I'm man enough to admit it, I was wrong about McNair. He does have better numbers than I thought. He is SOLID. Looking at his low and high QB rating you see he was never lower than an 83 (very respectable) and never higher than 100 (the year he split the MVP w/ Manning). He's a workhorse that's consistent (unlike the fluctuations w/ Vick, Culpepper or McNabb). But it also shows that he isn't the best...no matter what stretch you look at. Whether you are looking at career stats or over that magical five year stretch where he won the MVP, he doesn't match up very well with the others. The career numbers are misleading since half the list is still too young to honestly compair. But over the 5 year stretch he's only 7th (and this was a random sample of QBs, there may be more higher or lower than he). Take those numbers into consideration and factor in his frequent injuries (during that 5 year stretch he only started 16 games twice) and his inabilty to win a ring despite playing on playoff teams year in and year out, how could you possibly assert that the Bills should trade their future (JP) for him? Even if he decided to play one or two more years, it doesn't make sense. He certainly is good, but not great. And certainly his numbers don't merit the recognition as THE best QB in the league nor the HOF. That's all I was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 "Welcome to John Madden Football..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 On the second tier of QBs (this year) you have Culpepper, Breese, and McNair. Yeah, Culpepper with his 39 touchdowns was definitely a second tier QB this year..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Yeah, Culpepper with his 39 touchdowns was definitely a second tier QB this year..... 227810[/snapback] No, you're right. That is the other thing that jumped out at me when I put the other stats together. I had no idea how good he has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Yeah, Culpepper with his 39 touchdowns was definitely a second tier QB this year..... 227810[/snapback] I was wondering when someone was going to mention that. Culpepper had one of the best seasons ever for a QB. Not only did he have 39 passing TDs, but he also had over 5100 combined passing and rushing yards, which is an NFL record. Given that, its hard to call him anything but one of the best Qbs in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 I was wondering when someone was going to mention that. Culpepper had one of the best seasons ever for a QB. Not only did he have 39 passing TDs, but he also had over 5100 combined passing and rushing yards, which is an NFL record. Given that, its hard to call him anything but one of the best Qbs in the league. 227815[/snapback] Again, I was the idiot that called him second tier...I was wrong. Once I did my research I saw the light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarthur31 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Steve McNair. We all know our Defense and Special Teams are Superbowl worthy. Our offense would be Superbowl worthy with a QB like Steve McNair. I know that he's been hurt a lot. But if we were able to get him to stay healthy for 2 years and somehow get a Superbowl trophy during this time period then it would all be worth it. Tennessee is prime for rebuilding and I think that all of the vets leaving soured McNair and even has him contemplating retirement. I would think that Tennessee might be open to this if they were high on Losman at all. Anybody agree? Thinks it's stupid? Somewhere inbetween? 227291[/snapback] He's doner than Brett Favre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Now that's a fortified position tgregg. Nice job. But it also shows that he isn't the best...no matter what stretch you look at I never said he was definitively the best. I said he had become one of the best (which your numbers show) and that he was arguably the best. And here we are arguing about it; imagine that. He's a workhorse that's consistent.......... and factor in his frequent injuries (during that 5 year stretch he only started 16 games twice) Now how can you call him a workhorse but then give him hell for being frequently injured? And how many QB's have started all 16 games more than twice over that stretch? Until his injury last year, the guy has averaged 15 games/year since being named starter 8 years ago. Until we see a trend of him missing more games, then last year was simply an anomoly, not a trend. But over the 5 year stretch he's only 7th Actually you have him 6th. And with Pennington's candy arm now exposed and Favre apparently done like dinner, that would move him up to 4th. And also consider that thsoe are only numbers and that he doesn't have Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison/Edge, or Belichik/Weiss working with him. his inabilty to win a ring despite playing on playoff teams year in and year out, That's an irrelevant argument as rings are a team accomplishment and have nothing to do with individual evaluation. how could you possibly assert that the Bills should trade their future (JP) for him? Even if he decided to play one or two more years, it doesn't make sense. Because right now JP is nothing more than potential. And McNair is a proven stud. And I'll trade potential for proof any day of the week. And what if he decides to play 5-7 more years? Hell, the guy is only 30. He certainly is good, but not great If he's one of the best 5 QB's in the NFL, then he certainly is great. And if he came to Buffalo, the Bills would be an instant SuperBowl contender the second he arrived. All that being said, I just can't see Tennessee letting him get away unless A) they know he is going to retire in the next year or two and b)they get a mint for him. But if they are ready to start a rebuild cycle and McNair still wants to chase the ring for a few more years, then the Bills would be insane not to make a serious run at him. And if they could get him for nothing more than picks and potential, it would be an outright steal. Cya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmicBills Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 All that being said, I just can't see Tennessee letting him get away unless A) they know he is going to retire in the next year or two and b)they get a mint for him. But if they are ready to start a rebuild cycle and McNair still wants to chase the ring for a few more years, then the Bills would be insane not to make a serious run at him. And if they could get him for nothing more than picks and potential, it would be an outright steal. Cya 227825[/snapback] I hear what you're saying, I just don't agree. But it's all good. That's what boards like this are for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alg Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Great idea. Maybe McNair will decide not to retire this year as a result! Come on people. Next time someone swings that stupid-stick at you.......duck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayzer32 Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Air McNair behind our O-line,even though they have improved some, would be killed dead by week 4. DB is just one pretty tough SOB, who can't QB for crap. That being said I would rather have McNair tutor JP than DB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 how about we trade you for BF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Come on people. Next time someone swings that stupid-stick at you.......duck! 227858[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohninMinn. Posted February 4, 2005 Share Posted February 4, 2005 Billy Volek is better than JP right now... 227373[/snapback] There's a man who knows QB'S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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