Kirby Jackson Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Is CJ Spiller an elite RB? He has elite skills, does that make him an elite RB? The front 7 is one of the best in the league when they consistently beat the opposing offense. No, he is talented. What front 7's are better. SF? STL? Carolina? KC? Cincy? Other than those I don't even know who you would argue. If you put them all ahead of the Bills than they would have the 6th best front 7. IMO that would still be one of the best. I think that they are closer to 1 than they are to 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 The front 7 is one of the best in the league when they consistently beat the opposing offense. Not against the run. Last season they couldn't stop Steven Jackson, who's washed up, Powell, Ivory, BJGE, Vereen, Blount, Bobby Rainey (who wasn't even drafted and is on his third team in two seasons), Jordan Toddman (a 6th rounder also on his third team in two seasons) Great point about the front-7 being good. I mean stopping all of those future hall-of-fame RBs, I see your point. Does anyone even conduct a thorough analysis anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 No, he is talented. What front 7's are better. SF? STL? Carolina? KC? Cincy? Other than those I don't even know who you would argue. If you put them all ahead of the Bills than they would have the 6th best front 7. IMO that would still be one of the best. I think that they are closer to 1 than they are to 6. My goodness, any front 7 that finished the 2013 season with better numbers is better than the current Bills. You show your talent on the field during games. Until games are play we have names on a roster (said for the 3rd time). I'm happy that you are ready to anoint this team as top tier talent. I prefer to wait until I see how those players are used and how they respond during a game. To use your Spiller comparison...there is talent on defense. Elite means the results of that talent are there for all to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Much to the chagrin of those that see Kyle Williams as the reason our defense sucks against the run the last several seasons, the real reason we've been so bad is we've managed to field of one of the WORST linebacker groups in the league every year, bar none. I'll believe we have a good group of LBs when I see it on the field and not a minute before. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Not against the run. Last season they couldn't stop Steven Jackson, who's washed up, Powell, Ivory, BJGE, Vereen, Blount, Bobby Rainey (who wasn't even drafted and is on his third team in two seasons), Jordan Toddman (a 6th rounder also on his third team in two seasons) You are misunderstanding my point. Go back and give it another read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 My goodness, any front 7 that finished the 2013 season with better numbers is better than the current Bills. You show your talent on the field during games. Until games are play we have names on a roster (said for the 3rd time). I'm happy that you are ready to anoint this team as top tier talent. I prefer to wait until I see how those players are used and how they respond during a game. To use your Spiller comparison...there is talent on defense. Elite means the results of that talent are there for all to see. To answer the question if you were to rank them where would they be? My statement was that "they are one of the best." It doesn't mean that they are perfect but it is a comparison. If they are not "one of the best" than who do you have ahead of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 My goodness, any front 7 that finished the 2013 season with better numbers is better than the current Bills. You show your talent on the field during games. Until games are play we have names on a roster (said for the 3rd time). I'm happy that you are ready to anoint this team as top tier talent. I prefer to wait until I see how those players are used and how they respond during a game. To use your Spiller comparison...there is talent on defense. Elite means the results of that talent are there for all to see. To answer the question if you were to rank them where would they be? My statement was that "they are one of the best." It doesn't mean that they are perfect but it is a comparison. If they are not "one of the best" than who do you have ahead of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Jackson Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Beerball, it isn't 2013 anymore though. Rosters have changed. The Bills front 7 improved, SF regressed for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 ........ We gave up a lot of passing TDs too given that we finished 2nd in the league in sacks. We allowed 28 passing TDs. One more and we would have been in a log-jam tie for 26th. The teams that were ranked 27th and 28th, GB and TB, had terrible D's. How do you reconcile that? When is everyone going to realize that last year this foolish team was so focused on logging sacks that they designed their entire D around that. They even said that prior to the season. They told us that. They put all their eggs into one basket, yet we still finished 6-10. The teams we faced didn't even have good offenses on average, we had it very easy last season. Even the Pats had their worst offense since probably Brady's first few seasons. This year we face more good offensive teams. The D isn't going to be better this year, it's going to be worse, and everyone's going to blame it on Schwartz, not the facts per above. There are other indicators besides pass rush. And frankly, those sacks didn't even help us against teams like NO and ATL, who both had great offensive days despite 10 sacks against them. Why does no one see this most simple of things? Though I agree somewhat with your points on the sacks, I don't see why you feel the need to be a stat stacker in order to support your narative. Yes we allowed 28 passing TDs. 20 in the first 8 games where the secondary was injured & learning the new D......and 8 in the last 8 games. One more & we were log jammed at 26th??? Well, we were actually 20th.....and had the same result of the 2nd half occured in the first half we would have been 2nd. You also fail to point out that we were actually 4th against the pass last year. Our opposition didn't have good passing offenses on average? Really? 7 were in the top 12, 5 in the bottom 12, and 4 in the middle 10. I totally agree that there are other indicators besides pass rush. 4th in the league against the pass & only 8 TDs allowed in the final 8 games are some of those other things. Also, if you acknowledge that we focused too much on sacks last year(and likely won't do the same this year), surely you would predict a Schwartz D with a new run stuffing specialist LB(Spikes) will improve the weakest area.....thus a possible improvement to the D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Not against the run. Last season they couldn't stop Steven Jackson, who's washed up, Powell, Ivory, BJGE, Vereen, Blount, Bobby Rainey (who wasn't even drafted and is on his third team in two seasons), Jordan Toddman (a 6th rounder also on his third team in two seasons) Great point about the front-7 being good. I mean stopping all of those future hall-of-fame RBs, I see your point. Does anyone even conduct a thorough analysis anymore? That's funny. /\ Some additional stats/information which don't really add up that well. With all the pash-rush pressure and sack totals from last year, the Bills pass D defense: o 20th passing TD allowed overall. o 27th passing 40+ yards overall. If you want to score against the Bills, after you're done running all over the place, throw the ball deep? A lot? Where could one find additional stats like completion % over 20 yards and 40 yards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 You are misunderstanding my point. Go back and give it another read. "The front 7 is one of the best in the league when they consistently beat the opposing offense." Gotcha. Yes, I did misunderstand. That's funny. /\ Some additional stats/information which don't really add up that well. With all the pash-rush pressure and sack totals from last year, the Bills pass D defense: o 20th passing TD allowed overall. o 27th passing 40+ yards overall. If you want to score against the Bills, after you're done running all over the place, throw the ball deep? A lot? Where could one find additional stats like completion % over 20 yards and 40 yards? Additional stats: 6-10 We logged many sacks, but again, 10 sacks against Atlanta (2-14) and N.O., but both QBs had excellent games regardless and beat us anyway. Does it really matter whether we log 5 sacks against Jax or Cleveland? Can't we beat Jax or Cleveland without having 5 sacks? As it is, 5 sacks and we still lost to Cleveland. Think things through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 ...... Additional stats: 6-10 We logged many sacks, but again, 10 sacks against Atlanta (2-14) and N.O., but both QBs had excellent games regardless and beat us anyway. Does it really matter whether we log 5 sacks against Jax or Cleveland? Can't we beat Jax or Cleveland without having 5 sacks? As it is, 5 sacks and we still lost to Cleveland. Think things through. You might want to reread his post too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San-O Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 "The front 7 is one of the best in the league when they consistently beat the opposing offense." Gotcha. Yes, I did misunderstand. Additional stats: 6-10 We logged many sacks, but again, 10 sacks against Atlanta (2-14) and N.O., but both QBs had excellent games regardless and beat us anyway. Does it really matter whether we log 5 sacks against Jax or Cleveland? Can't we beat Jax or Cleveland without having 5 sacks? As it is, 5 sacks and we still lost to Cleveland. Think things through. I am agreeing with you: all the sack totals don't really mean much if you can't stop the run sometimes, and give up huge passing plays, many for TDs. Sounds like the 2ndary didn't get a lot of help with the deep ball, or couldn't translate the pressures into coverage down field. ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 I am agreeing with you: all the sack totals don't really mean much if you can't stop the run sometimes, and give up huge passing plays, many for TDs. Sounds like the 2ndary didn't get a lot of help with the deep ball, or couldn't translate the pressures into coverage down field. ??? That's because the secondary was overrated last year. With Byrd gone it's not going to be good. It was the system that made them look better than they are. Few seem to be able to see this. Same for Watkins, it was his system in college that allowed him to excel. I read somewhere that most of his yardage came off of bubble screens. Several places in fact and his splits support that. Well, bubble screens aren't going to work in the NFL. So, now what we have is a highly touted WR that is going to be asked to do what he did not frequently do in college, and one that has route running as a weakness. That is hardly a good combo for an NFL WR much less for a rookie looking to transform a team and render credibility to a GM that's already taking on water for last year's 1st rounder. He may be great in a couple of seasons, but it's not going to be this season. If Manuel doesn't make an enormous leap, then Watkins will be fortunate to post 600 yards and 5 TDs, hardly enough to make an impact. Aaron Williams didn't all of a sudden become good overnight. He's still not good, he merely benefited from the system. McKelvin has sucked as a CB for years too, ditto there. Corey Graham simply isn't that good. Searcy, ... please. Gilmore's good but he's far from great yet. He needs to step up too. He's solid though. Without Byrd, IMO, this secondary falls apart. He was the glue that held it together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 That's because the secondary was overrated last year. With Byrd gone it's not going to be good. It was the system that made them look better than they are. Few seem to be able to see this. Same for Watkins, it was his system in college that allowed him to excel. I read somewhere that most of his yardage came off of bubble screens. Several places in fact and his splits support that. Well, bubble screens aren't going to work in the NFL. So, now what we have is a highly touted WR that is going to be asked to do what he did not frequently do in college, and one that has route running as a weakness. That is hardly a good combo for an NFL WR much less for a rookie looking to transform a team and render credibility to a GM that's already taking on water for last year's 1st rounder. He may be great in a couple of seasons, but it's not going to be this season. If Manuel doesn't make an enormous leap, then Watkins will be fortunate to post 600 yards and 5 TDs, hardly enough to make an impact. Aaron Williams didn't all of a sudden become good overnight. He's still not good, he merely benefited from the system. McKelvin has sucked as a CB for years too, ditto there. Corey Graham simply isn't that good. Searcy, ... please. Gilmore's good but he's far from great yet. He needs to step up too. He's solid though. Without Byrd, IMO, this secondary falls apart. He was the glue that held it together. I've seen you mention this in a couple threads and have done nothing to research why that could be. The Clemson offense ran lot's of short passes and screens to Watkins because that's what the defense gave them. They gave Watkins a cushion so the offense got the ball into the hands of their top playmaker and let him go to work. A number of people have pointed that out. Watkins is weak at running routes? That's patently false. The worse I've seen is that his routes could use some polishing. That's it. Go watch his freshman year. Ya know, the one where he set all sorts of records. He was torching teams running routes, hence why defense's switched how they would defend him. A bunch of teams, not draft pundits, had him rated number 1 on their boards. As for draft pundits, they say he can be a generational talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 That's funny. /\ Some additional stats/information which don't really add up that well. With all the pash-rush pressure and sack totals from last year, the Bills pass D defense: o 20th passing TD allowed overall. o 27th passing 40+ yards overall. If you want to score against the Bills, after you're done running all over the place, throw the ball deep? A lot? Where could one find additional stats like completion % over 20 yards and 40 yards? This was a strong argument for the first half of the season, but over the course of the second half, after Byrd and Gilmore got healthy and the D started to play more insinctively as they got more accustomed to the new schemes, we improved tremendsously. I'm concerned that momentum will be stunted as the D tries again to learn a new system. I won't be surprised if it takes the better part of half the season before they are comfortable enough to once again play without having to think too much about it. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H2o Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 That's funny. /\ Some additional stats/information which don't really add up that well. With all the pash-rush pressure and sack totals from last year, the Bills pass D defense: o 20th passing TD allowed overall. o 27th passing 40+ yards overall. If you want to score against the Bills, after you're done running all over the place, throw the ball deep? A lot? Where could one find additional stats like completion % over 20 yards and 40 yards? Let me just start by saying that on paper we look like a POSSIBLE elite LB corp/Front 7, but actions always speak louder than words. Needless to say we are 3+ months away from meaningful action. As far as all these stats go, especially our stats as a pass defense, you have to take into account our early season injuries. Does anyone remember when Justin Rogers was seeing substantial playing time? Lord knows I wish I could forget. Geno Smith had the game of what will be his NFL career in that first matchup. Once Gilmore shed the club and got his timing back out there our pass defense as a whole looked much better I thought. The early season injuries inflated the rest of the pass defense numbers if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Let me just start by saying that on paper we look like a POSSIBLE elite LB corp/Front 7, but actions always speak louder than words. Needless to say we are 3+ months away from meaningful action. As far as all these stats go, especially our stats as a pass defense, you have to take into account our early season injuries. Does anyone remember when Justin Rogers was seeing substantial playing time? Lord knows I wish I could forget. Geno Smith had the game of what will be his NFL career in that first matchup. Once Gilmore shed the club and got his timing back out there our pass defense as a whole looked much better I thought. The early season injuries inflated the rest of the pass defense numbers if you ask me. This is irrefutable. Just look at the difference in defensive stats between the first and second halves of last season. The only thing we didn't improve on was the propensity to give up long runs at times. And I put most of that on poor LB play. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyHorseAteTheKid Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 It's nice to read, but they have't played a down yet!! Just like everyone else, I will wait to see them play.. But I hope this review is 100% correct... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted May 31, 2014 Share Posted May 31, 2014 Beerball, it isn't 2013 anymore though. Rosters have changed. The Bills front 7 improved, SF regressed for example. You know how 2014 will play out. I don't pretend to be able to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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