Unions - you can't make up stuff like this

[Jim in Anchorage]

Yeah Buddy... Did you forget about Fukushima? That's why you are so phucking retarded.

http://www.huffingto..._n_5632127.html

"When it is at 50 million, you have direct effects on mortality, reproductive effects. That is a seriously high number," Buesseler said. "The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency allows us to drink water up to about 7,400."

 

He predicts that water off the Oregon shore will peak at around 10 to 20 becquerel per cubic meter of water as ocean currents carry radiation from Japan in the years ahead. (Editing By Cynthia Johnston and Sandra Maler) So maybe my water goes to 20 Becquerels and 7400 is drinking water. Better throw all my shrimp and fish out and get some of those sewage eating great lakes carp..

Edited September 9, 2014 by Jim in Anchorage

[ExiledInIllinois]

http://www.huffingto..._n_5632127.html

"When it is at 50 million, you have direct effects on mortality, reproductive effects. That is a seriously high number," Buesseler said. "The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency allows us to drink water up to about 7,400."

 

He predicts that water off the Oregon shore will peak at around 10 to 20 becquerel per cubic meter of water as ocean currents carry radiation from Japan in the years ahead. (Editing By Cynthia Johnston and Sandra Maler) So maybe my water goes to 20 Becquerels and 7400 is drinking water. Better throw all my shrimp and fish out and get some of those sewage eating great lakes carp..

 

No... You are missing the point. I am not saying throw your shrimp out. Just use caution and realize it is not pristine water... You are all pissing in the same pond, just like the Great Lakes. But, with the Great Lakes, greater protection has been created. What are they doing to make sure the Asian Rim is staying on the side of protection?

 

With regard to the GL's it is not the same old Great Lakes... There has been a 40+ year clean up going. Bald eagles have returned to South Chicago. The reason the carp may get through is because of the clean-up. Years ago nothing lived in the Chicago Area Waterways (CAW's)... It was dead zone. One of my suggestions is to return a portion of it to a dead zone by pumping harmless nitrogen into a section... Creating a barrier again (one of many to compliment each other). It would be very cost effective, yet create a stagnant zone. Instead, we aerate the river @ many points... We do it by running dam too.

 

ASIAN (not common) carp are filter feeders. They eat the zooplankton, etc... just like the alewife. Salmon only eat the alewives and will hold more harmful contaminates... Same with other predator fish like bass, pike, perch. But, at least the bass, pike, and perch eat the baby carp... Salmon no deal, just the invasive alewife. As long as we protect the salmon (charters) by stocking N.West invasive salmon into the Middle Lakes (Michigan, Huron, Erie) we will leave the door wide open for the carp. Of course gov't wants to sell salmon stamps on people's licenses! Carp door is shut to the GL's when they stop stocking invasive salmon. Carp and alewives compete for the same food... Pike, bass, perch are not choosy. Bass are gobbling up the invasive round goby. Salmon is the problem in the Great Lakes fishery.

 

We are NOT talking radiation here with fish of the Great Lakes or salt that is harvested from below Lake Erie and Huron. We do have to be careful with the harvest of stuff like sea salt. I would be VERY careful of Pacific sea salts. I cut it it out of my diet all together. Iodine is another tricky thing... That your body needs...

 

I just take umberage to you slamming the Great Lakes over your NOT so pristine Pacific. It is totally unwarranted. The reason the Asians and rest of the world are clamoring for the N.American carp is because their area is way too polluted to sustain the carp. Area along the Pacific Rim that are tied into your area. Sure the Pacific ocean is huge... But again, you all are pissing in the same the same pot... Just a bigger Great Lakes. The GL's are being protected and cleaned-up, your Pacific is going in the opposite direction.

 

2014 is not the same old CAW's and Great Lakes... We have been doing something right the last 40+ years... You can't have an invasive problem and a pollution problem.

 

I can ramble more if you want, but I would just bore and confuse you more. There is no way I will ever change your stereotypes even if I went into great detail how things are handled with water treatment & dissinfection of said water. Especially when it pertains to my job and how places like the Chicago Diversion work.

 

Peace.

Edited September 9, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois

[ExiledInIllinois]

Another point: Do you JiA trust gov't enough to tell you what's safe and what's not safe? Even I don't. I will accept their guidelines and reccomendations, but in the end I will always question... Question everything. You sound more like a good little statist if you blindly accept what the gov't is pumping out. Do you think they want to panic people?

[DC Tom]

No... You are missing the point. I am not saying throw your shrimp out. Just use caution and realize it is not pristine water...

 

Not because of radiation. Statistically, the radiation increase from Fukushima is indistinguishable from background noise.

 

You get more radiation exposure at work than anyone gets from the Pacific.

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

Not because of radiation. Statistically, the radiation increase from Fukushima is indistinguishable from background noise.

 

You get more radiation exposure at work than anyone gets from the Pacific.

 

Yes. But radiation is cumulative. Get enough "background noise" and you have a hum.

 

Now, take JiA... Does this nut really ever do anything in moderation? This is the same guy who was espousing the virtues of ingesting huge amounts of MSG and fat.

 

I am not disagreeing with you Tom. To call something "pristine" is ridiculous. Does he not run his boat motor when crabbing/shrimping.

 

One area is definately on the upswing (GL's) while another area is on the down (Pacific). Do you really want to argue otherwise? Why do you think he hates me droning on about certain things... Some people like to live in denial.

 

And for what it's worth, back on topic. Unions do not have a stranglehold on the furture of what's allotted to the Great Lakes states. It is quite the opposite. It's all NON-union through the heartland. The heartland and states far, far away from the Great Lakes will decide what gets passed, allocated. It has to piss off the GL states that they don't carry political clout anymore.

Edited September 9, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois

[Jim in Anchorage]

Yes. But radiation is cumulative. Get enough "background noise" and you have a hum.

 

Now, take JiA... Does this nut really ever do anything in moderation? This is the same guy who was espousing the virtues of ingesting huge amounts of MSG and fat.

 

I am not disagreeing with you Tom. To call something "pristine" is ridiculous. Does he not run his boat motor when crabbing/shrimping.

 

One area is definately on the upswing (GL's) while another area is on the down (Pacific). Do you really want to argue otherwise? Why do you think he hates me droning on about certain things... Some people like to live in denial.

 

And for what it's worth, back on topic. Unions do not have a stranglehold on the furture of what's allotted to the Great Lakes states. It is quite the opposite. It's all NON-union through the heartland. The heartland and states far, far away from the Great Lakes will decide what gets passed, allocated. It has to piss off the GL states that they don't carry political clout anymore.

You are unbelievable. How do you even function in day to day life? Some how I picture a little girl pointing at you and saying " mommy that man scares me. He's talking to a mail box." Do you babble like this in real life? The Pacific is down? How's the Atlantic doing? Replaced by lake superior I guess.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Let's see what kind of spin some here can put on this "background noise."

 

I guess it's not a big deal that nobody outside the US and Canada are willing to clean things up. It must be coming from our borders. God only know the US and Canada don't have any enviro regulations in place.

 

While we are cleaning up what's between ours and Canada's borders and they are getting better, the world is fairing alot worse. In general, parts of the world's oceans aren't doing too well @ all.

 

Here's the North Pacific. The North Atlantic is not without its human warts either...

 

http://education.nationalgeographic.com/education/encyclopedia/great-pacific-garbage-patch/?ar_a=1

 

Great Pacific Garbage Patch

Pacific Trash

 

"...The Great Pacific Garbage Patch is a collection of marine debris in the North Pacific Ocean. Marine debris is litter that ends up in oceans, seas, and other large bodies of water.

 

The Great Pacific Garbage Patch, also known as the Eastern Pacific Garbage Patch and the Pacific Trash Vortex, lies in a high-pressure area between the U.S. states of Hawaii and California. This area is in the middle of the North Pacific Subtropical Gyre.

 

An ocean gyre is a circular ocean current formed by the Earth’s wind patterns and the forces created by the rotation of the planet. The area in the center of a gyre tends to be very calm and stable. The circular motion of the gyre draws in debris. Debris eventually makes its way into the center of the gyre, where it becomes trapped and builds up. A similar garbage patch exists in the Atlantic Ocean, in the North Atlantic Gyre..."

 

It's okay... It will only get so big and stay away. I guess this is what you consider an ocean not on the downswing? Gee Jim, be thankful it doesn't blow by your "pristine waters." Gee what a lovely image...

 

 

"Yet as I gazed from the deck at the surface of what ought to have been a pristine ocean, I was confronted, as far as the eye could see, with the sight of plastic."

Edited September 10, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois

[GaryPinC]

Yes. But radiation is cumulative. Get enough "background noise" and you have a hum.

 

Now, take JiA... Does this nut really ever do anything in moderation? This is the same guy who was espousing the virtues of ingesting huge amounts of MSG and fat.

 

I am not disagreeing with you Tom. To call something "pristine" is ridiculous. Does he not run his boat motor when crabbing/shrimping.

 

One area is definately on the upswing (GL's) while another area is on the down (Pacific). Do you really want to argue otherwise? Why do you think he hates me droning on about certain things... Some people like to live in denial.

 

And for what it's worth, back on topic. Unions do not have a stranglehold on the furture of what's allotted to the Great Lakes states. It is quite the opposite. It's all NON-union through the heartland. The heartland and states far, far away from the Great Lakes will decide what gets passed, allocated. It has to piss off the GL states that they don't carry political clout anymore.

 

Interesting thing ridiculousness. I wonder if there is any body of water on this planet truly pristine, ie unspoiled by the chemical pollutant effects of man? Maybe in the remotest of places after much searching? The presence and pollution of humans is everywhere on this planet.

 

What then qualifies as pristine these days?

 

You are attempting to compare the 660-700 million cubic kilometer Pacific Ocean to the 23,000 cubic kilometer great lakes. Let's not forget the fact that the great lakes region was and still remains an industrial manufacturing and population hub which has polluted every one of the great lakes over many years.

 

I live just east of Cleveland and enjoy going to the beautiful lake Erie beach less than 15 minutes from my house on a hot summer day. Except when it storms 24-48 hours before, which blows out the sewage holding tanks at the treatment plants and dumps them straight into the lake spiking bacterial counts until nature cleans up the mess. Since 2011 we have initiated project clean lake: Project Clean Lake is a $3 billion, 25-year program that will reduce the total volume of raw sewage discharges from 4.5 billion gallons to 494 million gallons annually - See more at: http://www.neorsd.or...h.aeFgqbIY.dpuf

 

This will do nothing to address the PCBs, mercury, dioxins and other pollutants which account for strong fish consumption advisories on every one of the great lakes. I'm 44 and the visible quality of the great lakes has improved remarkably since I was a kid but the slope of that curve will flatten out because it will take many decades for the pollutant levels to fade.

 

I am a fan of the great lakes and highly recommend to anyone a trip up to the western and northern areas of Michigan. Great stuff up there. But compare the fish advisories for Michigan (surrounded by great lakes) with Alaska:

 

http://www.epi.hss.s...s/rr2007_04.pdf

 

http://www.michigan....y03_67354_7.pdf

 

Which one of these would be considered far closer to pristine?

 

As far as the radiation: http://www.forbes.co...ast-of-america/

 

"The amount of Fukushima radioactivity in this seawater is miniscule, about a Becquerel per cubic meter of water, or Bq/m3 of short-lived Cs-134, and poses no concern at all. And never will. By comparison, the EPA drinking water standard for its sister radionuclide, Cs-137, is about 7,400 Bq/m3, and for all radioactive materials is almost a million Bq/m3."

 

Ridiculous indeed.

Edited September 10, 2014 by GaryPinC

[Jim in Anchorage]

 

 

Interesting thing ridiculousness. I wonder if there is any body of water on this planet truly pristine, ie unspoiled by the chemical pollutant effects of man? Maybe in the remotest of places after much searching? The presence and pollution of humans is everywhere on this planet.

 

What then qualifies as pristine these days?

 

You are attempting to compare the 660-700 million cubic kilometer Pacific Ocean to the 23,000 cubic kilometer great lakes. Let's not forget the fact that the great lakes region was and still remains an industrial manufacturing and population hub which has polluted every one of the great lakes over many years.

 

I live just east of Cleveland and enjoy going to the beautiful lake Erie beach less than 15 minutes from my house on a hot summer day. Except when it stormed 24-48 hours before which blows out the sewage holding tanks at the treatment plants and dumps them straight into the lake spiking bacterial counts until nature cleans up the mess. Since 2011 we have initiated project clean lake: Project Clean Lake is a $3 billion, 25-year program that will reduce the total volume of raw sewage discharges from 4.5 billion gallons to 494 million gallons annually - See more at: http://www.neorsd.org/projectcleanlake.php#sthash.aeFgqbIY.dpuf

 

This will do nothing to address the PCBs, mercury, dioxins and other pollutants which account for strong fish consumption advisories on every one of the great lakes. I'm 44 and the visible quality of the great lakes has improved remarkably since I was a kid but the slope of that curve will flatten out because it will take many decades for the pollutant levels to fade.

 

I am a fan of the great lakes and highly recommend to anyone a trip up to the western and northern areas of Michigan. Great stuff up there. But compare the fish advisories for Michigan (surrounded by great lakes) with Alaska:

 

http://www.epi.hss.state.ak.us/bulletins/docs/rr2007_04.pdf

 

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/FishAdvisory03_67354_7.pdf

 

Which one of these would be considered far closer to pristine?

 

As far as the radiation: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/03/16/radioactive-fukushima-waters-arrive-at-west-coast-of-america/

 

"The amount of Fukushima radioactivity in this seawater is miniscule, about a Becquerel per cubic meter of water, or Bq/m3 of short-lived Cs-134, and poses no concern at all. And never will. By comparison, the EPA drinking water standard for its sister radionuclide, Cs-137, is about 7,400 Bq/m3, and for all radioactive materials is almost a million Bq/m3."

 

Ridiculous indeed.

Bravo. You did far better at putting down that buffoon then I ever could.

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

 

Interesting thing ridiculousness. I wonder if there is any body of water on this planet truly pristine, ie unspoiled by the chemical pollutant effects of man? Maybe in the remotest of places after much searching? The presence and pollution of humans is everywhere on this planet.

 

What then qualifies as pristine these days?

 

You are attempting to compare the 660-700 million cubic kilometer Pacific Ocean to the 23,000 cubic kilometer great lakes. Let's not forget the fact that the great lakes region was and still remains an industrial manufacturing and population hub which has polluted every one of the great lakes over many years.

 

I live just east of Cleveland and enjoy going to the beautiful lake Erie beach less than 15 minutes from my house on a hot summer day. Except when it storms 24-48 hours before, which blows out the sewage holding tanks at the treatment plants and dumps them straight into the lake spiking bacterial counts until nature cleans up the mess. Since 2011 we have initiated project clean lake: Project Clean Lake is a $3 billion, 25-year program that will reduce the total volume of raw sewage discharges from 4.5 billion gallons to 494 million gallons annually - See more at: http://www.neorsd.or...h.aeFgqbIY.dpuf

 

This will do nothing to address the PCBs, mercury, dioxins and other pollutants which account for strong fish consumption advisories on every one of the great lakes. I'm 44 and the visible quality of the great lakes has improved remarkably since I was a kid but the slope of that curve will flatten out because it will take many decades for the pollutant levels to fade.

 

I am a fan of the great lakes and highly recommend to anyone a trip up to the western and northern areas of Michigan. Great stuff up there. But compare the fish advisories for Michigan (surrounded by great lakes) with Alaska:

 

http://www.epi.hss.s...s/rr2007_04.pdf

 

http://www.michigan....y03_67354_7.pdf

 

Which one of these would be considered far closer to pristine?

 

As far as the radiation: http://www.forbes.co...ast-of-america/

 

"The amount of Fukushima radioactivity in this seawater is miniscule, about a Becquerel per cubic meter of water, or Bq/m3 of short-lived Cs-134, and poses no concern at all. And never will. By comparison, the EPA drinking water standard for its sister radionuclide, Cs-137, is about 7,400 Bq/m3, and for all radioactive materials is almost a million Bq/m3."

 

Ridiculous indeed.

 

Very good post, thank you for very good points on how others around The Lakes may abusing the enviro. This area (Chicago) for 100+ years has NOT been discharging raw sewage back into The Lake(s). I can't say what happens during huge overflowing storms though, the EPA does allow for emergency discharge. What I said in the last few sentences is the MAIN reason we make it flow "backwards" and why things in this area have been making a quicker comeback than your area.. Now on the other hand, the Chicago Diversion doesn't disinfect like others are mandated to do... There in lies the rub. Chicago let's nature disinfect and nature "bake" off the nasties... BUT it doesn't happen in The Lake(s)...

 

Speaking of fish... Asian carp have the lowest concentration of pollutants than any other fish... Even compared to other fish around the world. They are not predator fish and they filter feed from the surface of the water. Don't confuse Asian carp with common carp who muck up the bottom, they simply are NOT the same. The effects of pollutants are very small compared to say predator fish like salmon, etc...

 

I understand the "ponds" are two very differnt sizees. But to blow off the cumulative effect is silly. We blew off that cumulative effect for years with The Lakes and you see what happens.

 

It is kind a funny when they take the Chicago River off the most endangered rivers list and put the Grand River (Lake Erie/Ohio) on it. It shows that somebody is doing something right and somebody is doing something wrong.

 

I am sorry that I scare little girls and JiA... I won't go to my mailbox for 6 days as penance. Jim can come out from under his bed and have mommy comfort him by saying it will be all okay.

 

;-P

Edited September 10, 2014 by ExiledInIllinois

[GaryPinC]

Very good post, thank you for very good points on how others around The Lakes may abusing the enviro. This area (Chicago) for 100+ years has NOT been discharging raw sewage back into The Lake(s). I can't say what happens during huge overflowing storms though, the EPA does allow for emergency discharge. What I said in the last few sentences is the MAIN reason we make it flow "backwards" and why things in this area have been making a quicker comeback than your area.. Now on the other hand, the Chicago Diversion doesn't disinfect like others are mandated to do... There in lies the rub. Chicago let's nature disinfect and nature "bake" off the nasties... BUT it doesn't happen in The Lake(s)...

 

Speaking of fish... Asian carp have the lowest concentration of pollutants than any other fish... Even compared to other fish around the world. They are not predator fish and they filter feed from the surface of the water. Don't confuse Asian carp with common carp who muck up the bottom, they simply are NOT the same. The effects of pollutants are very small compared to say predator fish like salmon, etc...

 

I understand the "ponds" are two very differnt sizees. But to blow off the cumulative effect is silly. We blew off that cumulative effect for years with The Lakes and you see what happens.

 

It is kind a funny when they take the Chicago River off the most endangered rivers list and put the Grand River (Lake Erie/Ohio) on it. It shows that somebody is doing something right and somebody is doing something wrong.

 

I am sorry that I scare little girls and JiA... I won't go to my mailbox for 6 days as penance. Jim can come out from under his bed and have mommy comfort him by saying it will be all okay.

 

;-P

 

You really don't have to look hard to see how screwed up the chicago river still is: http://www.epa.gov/Region5/chicagoriver/

 

I live within 15 minutes of the Grand River. It is a designated state scenic river and has a few minor pollution issues but is generally healthy. It got put on the endangered list because the environmental group is worried that any future fracking operations nearby will destroy the Grand's ecosystem. It hasn't happened yet but I guess that was their criteria. http://www.cleveland.com/sports/index.ssf/2012/05/grand_river_on_endangered_list.html

 

Our sewage contamination into Lake Erie only takes place after heavy storms, much like Chicago's though we do not routinely dump 70% partially treated sewage into the rivers as Chicago likes to do. Our rivers all flow to Lake Erie, we never needed to reverse flow on any of them just to spew our sewage in a different direction from our drinking water intakes. How you come to feel that we are doing something very wrong compared to what goes on in Chicago is inexplicable. We completely treat our sewage but the system simply cannot handle heavy storm sewer loads. We are in roughly similar boats.

 

I am not blowing off pollution risks to the Pacific Ocean. I feel your perspective of those risks are blown way out of proportion. Your pointless panic-mongering on the Fukushima contamination (which is negligible) and is no risk to the Northern Pacific by Alaska or the entire west coast for that matter.

[ExiledInIllinois]

You really don't have to look hard to see how screwed up the chicago river still is: http://www.epa.gov/R...5/chicagoriver/

 

I live within 15 minutes of the Grand River. It is a designated state scenic river and has a few minor pollution issues but is generally healthy. It got put on the endangered list because the environmental group is worried that any future fracking operations nearby will destroy the Grand's ecosystem. It hasn't happened yet but I guess that was their criteria. http://www.cleveland...gered_list.html

 

Our sewage contamination into Lake Erie only takes place after heavy storms, much like Chicago's though we do not routinely dump 70% partially treated sewage into the rivers as Chicago likes to do. Our rivers all flow to Lake Erie, we never needed to reverse flow on any of them just to spew our sewage in a different direction from our drinking water intakes. How you come to feel that we are doing something very wrong compared to what goes on in Chicago is inexplicable. We completely treat our sewage but the system simply cannot handle heavy storm sewer loads. We are in roughly similar boats.

 

I am not blowing off pollution risks to the Pacific Ocean. I feel your perspective of those risks are blown way out of proportion. Your pointless panic-mongering on the Fukushima contamination (which is negligible) and is no risk to the Northern Pacific by Alaska or the entire west coast for that matter.

 

Fair enough.

 

I don't think I am blowing things out of proportion. One area (Great Lakes) is being tended to while the Asian Pacific Rim is heading in the opposite direction... It's all one pool. It is only a matter of time before the effects become more cumulative.

 

Anyway, sewage isn't spewed, its treated first, just not disinfected in the Chicago area... Nature takes care of that. The lock system is the emergency overflow. Doing it by this approach is cost effective and BUSINESS FRIENDLY. Areas do have to compete in a global economy. What Chicago is doing is using their nature resources and global position to be BUSINESS and TRADE FRIENDLY... If they get too enviro crazy business/trade will be chased to other areas. Chicago is blessed to be in that position, anybody else would be doing the same thing. Global trade.

 

Again... Invasive species are not a problem in dirty environments.

 

You bring great perspective to this debate... I would like to hear more!

[ExiledInIllinois]

Also, I think you are forgetting Gary what should be noted is the importance of how business/global trade is tied into the Chicago Diversion.

 

Example:

 

The ports of Indiana alone stand to lose 1.6 Billion dollars a year if sewage and navigation is "replumbed" in the Chicago area. Right now the system is bought and paid for, bringing a positive rate of return on the investment for the taxpayers WHILE the environment is being cleaned-up. Sewage treatment is tied to navigation. Navigation/trade fuels the economy. You can't break the two apart witnout causing big trouble in the economy. The rate of return on the investment would be terrible if they decide to spend 10's of billions on an environment that is already experiencing a postitive transformation while enabling industry to operate.

 

Again, don't underestimate this. It is silly to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Industry and business needs to be able to compete in a global market.