Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I have a difference of opinion about EJ, but at no point did he have an outing like Wilson's in his seventh game last season, a 9 for 23 showing with a rating lower than his 39% completion percentage. So much for brief. His struggles were like those of any rookie QB. If EJ had ended the season on a high note the narrative would favor his end of game comebacks. I encourage you to look outside of the narrative. I know you have some objectivity in you, and anyone objective would say that EJ showed some good things and that he also has a lot to work on. He shouldn't go into 2014 thinking he's got a lock on the job, but nor should he go into it thinking he doesn't belong in this league. Playoff QB Andy Dalton has looked as bad as some of EJ's worst today. Luck came back from some major mistakes yesterday. Every young QB has growing pains. I honestly don't see that Wilson struggled in a way that EJ does. It's not completely meaningful to state that all rookie QBs struggle some. Of course they do, but when their degree of struggle is orders of magnitude in difference, trying to establish equivalence doesn't make a strong argument. The narrative here is that EJ is like all other rookie QBs. I don't see that. He has not proven durable. Many of his pre draft deficiencies are still present. His struggles are significantly different. Wilson had a great OL, good WR's, a great defense (led the NFL in points allowed and 4th in yards allowed), and an almost-1,600 yard rusher. He also had 8 games with less than 175 yards passing, with 3 of them coming in the 2nd half of the season. Midseason posters here were raving how our guys on our o-line would each be first round picks or some such thing. We had good WRs too (Stevie, Woods, Woodson, Chandler), judging by popular consent here. Also, we were constantly reminded that we had the 4th ranked rushing game. And we also heard a lot about how improved our defense is. Now all of that is untrue, for the sake of argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) I honestly don't see that Wilson struggled in a way that EJ does. It's not completely meaningful to state that all rookie QBs struggle some. Of course they do, but when their degree of struggle is orders of magnitude in difference, trying to establish equivalence doesn't make a strong argument. The narrative here is that EJ is like all other rookie QBs. I don't see that. He has not proven durable. Many of his pre draft deficiencies are still present. His struggles are significantly different. Midseason posters here were raving how our guys on our o-line would each be first round picks or some such thing. We had good WRs too (Stevie, Woods, Woodson, Chandler), judging by popular consent here. Also, we were constantly reminded that we had the 4th ranked rushing game. And we also heard a lot about how improved our defense is. Now all of that is untrue, for the sake of argument? To the bolded, I think your statement is pretty subjective and people on both sides of this opinion could each cherry pick stats to support their sides. The fact is that Wilson did have some really bad games for a really good team. For the stuff below the bolded, a half season of football is a large sample size. It's equivalent to a huge chunk of an NFL players career. I think it's very fair for people to have evolved their opinions based on 8 weeks of NFL football, as long as they're honest about how their opinions have evolved. The problem is that not everyone is honest about their opinions. Edited January 5, 2014 by San Jose Bills Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 To the bolded, I think your statement is pretty subjective and people on both sides of this opinion could each cherry pick stats to support their sides. The fact is that Wilson did have some really bad games for a really good team. For the stuff below the bolded, a half season of football is a large sample size. It's equivalent to a huge chunk of an NFL players career. I think it's very fair for people to have evolved their opinions based on 8 weeks of NFL football, as long as they're honest about how their opinions have evolved. The problem is that not everyone is honest about their opinions. In the last 8 weeks of the season , EJ was the starting QB in 5 of those games (3 losses with in which he had a total of 2TDs, 5ints and no completion rate higher than 56%). So if there was a decline in the play of the O-line and the RBs and the WRs and the defense, is there no correlation with the fact that this decline occurred during EJ's tenure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 In the last 8 weeks of the season , EJ was the starting QB in 5 of those games (3 losses with in which he had a total of 2TDs, 5ints and no completion rate higher than 56%). So if there was a decline in the play of the O-line and the RBs and the WRs and the defense, is there no correlation with the fact that this decline occurred during EJ's tenure? Like I said WEO, we can each cherry pick and I could reverse the argument regarding causality. Bottom line I don't think his struggles were significantly different from that of other rookie QBs. And I think it's a shame he wasn't healthy enough to play in the last two games in which any natural progression (or regression) would have been apparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Like I said WEO, we can each cherry pick and I could reverse the argument regarding causality. Bottom line I don't think his struggles were significantly different from that of other rookie QBs. And I think it's a shame he wasn't healthy enough to play in the last two games in which any natural progression (or regression) would have been apparent. Fair enough. It seemed far easier for me to watch Wilson last year and say--wow, this kid seems like nothing bothers him and he's been playing for years-especially as the year went on. I never got to that point with EJ. He had a nice game against Carolina early on. Then, in week 13, you see him that Tampa game and say--this kid's a mess. So I can't equate the struggles of these 2 QBs. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Fair enough. It seemed far easier for me to watch Wilson last year and say--wow, this kid seems like nothing bothers him and he's been playing for years-especially as the year went on. I never got to that point with EJ. He had a nice game against Carolina early on. Then, in week 13, you see him that Tampa game and say--this kid's a mess. So I can't equate the struggles of these 2 QBs. Sorry. The Tampa game was bracketed by the Atlanta and Jacksonville games in which I thought EJ played very well. Again it's a shame he had an injury-prone rookie season. That has to really stunt a rookie QBs development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobonators Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Don't believe that he's worth it. I don't think he shrugs off those hits he takes once he gets to the NFL. At best he'll be Vick, good for 8-12 starts a season in the beginning. As time rolls on games missed will increase. I personally dont think injury concern should be a worry (though injuries are impossible to predict) Theres something to be said about certain players being elusive. Manziel is elusive and smart. Much like russel wilson. I didnt see him taking too many horrible hits in college. Hes also not flutie-like in size. Unlike vick, hes a pass-first QB and scrambles when necessary. Id take Manziel in a HEARTBEAT. He dominated alabama 2x's, he didnt just pad his stats vs the Troy's of college football. The guy has all the physical tools and grit - something that cant be taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Midseason posters here were raving how our guys on our o-line would each be first round picks or some such thing. Huh? The only players who have been considered good on the OL this year are Glenn and Wood. Urbik has regressed as has Pears, and LG was a disaster. We had good WRs too (Stevie, Woods, Woodson, Chandler), judging by popular consent here. Also, we were constantly reminded that we had the 4th ranked rushing game. And we also heard a lot about how improved our defense is. Now all of that is untrue, for the sake of argument? When Scott Chandler is your leading receiver... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 In the last 8 weeks of the season , EJ was the starting QB in 5 of those games (3 losses with in which he had a total of 2TDs, 5ints and no completion rate higher than 56%). So if there was a decline in the play of the O-line and the RBs and the WRs and the defense, is there no correlation with the fact that this decline occurred during EJ's tenure? Rushing TDs only count for elite QBs like Russell Wilson, I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Rushing TDs only count for elite QBs like Russell Wilson, I see. When they are Wilson TD's they are rushing. When they are EJ TD's they should be called "lumbering awkwardly" TD's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 When they are Wilson TD's they are rushing. When they are EJ TD's they should be called "lumbering awkwardly" TD's. They still count for 6 points though, correct? How many points does he get when he lunges and tags the pylon with the ball when he's fully laid out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 When they are Wilson TD's they are rushing. When they are EJ TD's they should be called "lumbering awkwardly" TD's. To be fair to the kid if you watch him run in college he was much, much smoother and had real running ability. His knee injuries have made him look like a shell of the runner he was in college. Hopefully he heals up and we see what he can really do...but on a limited basis. I don't want him running that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 They still count for 6 points though, correct? How many points does he get when he lunges and tags the pylon with the ball when he's fully laid out? It was a joke, EJ just looks like something is wrong whenever he runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 It was a joke, EJ just looks like something is wrong whenever he runs. I don't know if I agree with that. But you're not the only person to make that comment so maybe it's me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 To be fair to the kid if you watch him run in college he was much, much smoother and had real running ability. His knee injuries have made him look like a shell of the runner he was in college. Hopefully he heals up and we see what he can really do...but on a limited basis. I don't want him running that much. With this I agree. Seeing so many designed QB runs from Alex Smith, Andrew Luck and even Rodgers makes me think that the Bills really need to work this into their game. It's my hope that the reason that they didn't had more to do with the injury than with philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Huh? The only players who have been considered good on the OL this year are Glenn and Wood. Urbik has regressed as has Pears, and LG was a disaster. When Scott Chandler is your leading receiver... ...your QB can't find his primary receivers. Rushing TDs only count for elite QBs like Russell Wilson, I see. OK, he had one rushing TD in those 3 losses. His first of the year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 OK, he had one rushing TD in those 3 losses. His first of the year And threw for TDs during the wins. It's as if the TDs helped his team win, and he played poorly in games in which the team played poorly. The TB game was the worst. And it was bad. There were other flashes of brilliance. Even against the premier division opponent in week 1. Like I said WEO, we can each cherry pick and I could reverse the argument regarding causality. QFT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) ...your QB can't find his primary receivers. Funny then that EJ had more yards/game than Wilson did as a rookie. Despite Wilson having receivers that could catch the ball and hang onto it. Edited January 5, 2014 by Doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Funny then that EJ had more yards/game than Wilson did as a rookie. Despite Wilson having receivers that could catch the ball and hang onto it. It's funny you would hang your argument on that stat--EJ had 2 yards more per game than Wilson did. And it took him far more passes per game to get those yards. His YPA was under 6.5 whereas Wilson's was almost 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Watch the QB play in the playoffs....and be truthful with yourselves.....do you feel that EJ can get to those levels and beat his competition? Hell no! Not ever! What these fabulous QBs are doing is like nothing we've seen since Kelly. Just saw Rodgers pull an 'Eli', escaping a sure sack on 4th down and completing a huge pass to the 5. Breathtaking stuff, as was Luck & Brees. They have what EJ Manuel doesn't have. IT! GB scored 2 plays later to take the lead, BTW.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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