ColdBlueNorth Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Are you suggesting that the Bills should draft an O-tackle? I'm not understanding your sarcasm. Not sure your stance on this SHBF, I would have to go back and look at more of your posts. I am in the camp of taking a QB in the 2nd or 3rd unless Geno falls and they want to reach for him there and that would still be a reach - after Geno the talent separating the rest of the pack is negligible and folks forget that Zac Dysert and EJ Manuel (QB's generally mentioned after all the usual suspects) were the two QBs that had the best Senior Bowl showings. It does nothing for this team to reach for a 2nd or 3rd round talent QB at the 8th overall pick. Shoring up the line and defense however will help this team and any rookie QB in the long run. A GM cornered into reaching ends up picking a Maybin in a draft weak with edge rushers, or a McCargo in a draft weak with Defensive Tackles - that is the danger of drafting simply for need - you have to look at the class coming out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Is that because you think he is the best player in the entire draft or because you think he will be one of the 5 best QBs in the NFL in 4 years? Talent-wise he is the most talented QB in this draft, by a wide margin. Also he has a track record as a 4-year starter who won 4 bowl games. Also he's an obviously intelligent guy who did well in school and has zero character concerns. He's also reputed to have a great work ethic. I actually don't understand why he's not the top-rated QB in this draft. I've spent the last few days watching QB videos. Here's EJ's: http://draftbreakdown.com/players/ej-manuel Not sure your stance on this SHBF, I would have to go back and look at more of your posts. I am in the camp of taking a QB in the 2nd or 3rd unless Geno falls and they want to reach for him there and that would still be a reach - after Geno the talent separating the rest of the pack is negligible and folks forget that Zac Dysert and EJ Manuel (QB's generally mentioned after all the usual suspects) were the two QBs that had the best Senior Bowl showings. It does nothing for this team to reach for a 2nd or 3rd round talent QB at the 8th overall pick. Shoring up the line and defense however will help this team and any rookie QB in the long run. A GM cornered into reaching ends up picking a Maybin in a draft weak with edge rushers, or a McCargo in a draft weak with Defensive Tackles - that is the danger of drafting simply for need - you have to look at the class coming out. In spite of Levitre and Rinehart leaving, I still view the O-line as a relative position of strength. Thus I'm against BPA. This team doesn't need to bolster the O-line. And I don't agree with the conventional thinking that the available QBs are 2nd round talents. I do however agree with the conventional thinking that if you don't have a QB you don't have anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I think the bills biggest problem would be figuring out who the best player available would be with the #1 pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 EJ Manuel is a Cam Newton/Kaepernick talent. He's a freak athlete with no discernible weaknesses or concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Talent-wise he is the most talented QB in this draft, by a wide margin. Also he has a track record as a 4-year starter who won 4 bowl games. Also he's an obviously intelligent guy who did well in school and has zero character concerns. He's also reputed to have a great work ethic. I actually don't understand why he's not the top-rated QB in this draft. I've spent the last few days watching QB videos. Here's EJ's: http://draftbreakdow...ayers/ej-manuel So, let me rephrase my question. If the Patriots had the #1 overall pick, Bill Belichick would choose EJ Manuel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 So, let me rephrase my question. If the Patriots had the #1 overall pick, Bill Belichick would choose EJ Manuel? He might. I have no idea. Would Green Bay? Would the Giants? I couldn't tell you. To try to answer your question, I would draft him on both rationales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 He might. I have no idea. Would Green Bay? Would the Giants? I couldn't tell you. To try to answer your question, I would draft him on both rationales. OK, I hear you. You sound totally convinced on Manuel. No harm in having an opinion. It's all good. FWIW, I am not 100% sold on Manuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Blizzard Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Should the Bills trade UP to #1??? No way. Too many holes to fill. I wish we had a few more draft picks actually. I don't see this season as one that the Bills will do much of anything. Not happy about losing Levitre; there was a guy that Spiller could run behind. Marrone will start to put his program together this year so it's a "wait and see" season.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 EJ Manuel is a Cam Newton/Kaepernick talent. He's a freak athlete with no discernible weaknesses or concerns. Not that your not entitled to your opinion but as I read through some scouting reports on him I'd say he has concerns. - decision making - accuracy - struggles to work through progressions - didn't play we'll against good defenses - not a natural passer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdBlueNorth Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Talent-wise he is the most talented QB in this draft, by a wide margin. Also he has a track record as a 4-year starter who won 4 bowl games. Also he's an obviously intelligent guy who did well in school and has zero character concerns. He's also reputed to have a great work ethic. I actually don't understand why he's not the top-rated QB in this draft. I've spent the last few days watching QB videos. Here's EJ's: http://draftbreakdow...ayers/ej-manuel In spite of Levitre and Rinehart leaving, I still view the O-line as a relative position of strength. Thus I'm against BPA. This team doesn't need to bolster the O-line. And I don't agree with the conventional thinking that the available QBs are 2nd round talents. I do however agree with the conventional thinking that if you don't have a QB you don't have anything. I agree that Manuel is the only read-option capable QB if that is the direction Marone goes with his offense, as a pure pocket passer I think that Dysert is a good bargain in the later rounds. Arguably one of the strongest arms that can hit all the throws, got the snot beat out of him but was durable and mentally strong, and had probably the worst supporting cast of receivers I have ever seen at a quality college program. We disagree on the BPA approach, but the Bills front office has not had a penchant for finding and developing the BPA so that could be a wash - but there are some new faces in the war room this year. Most talent evaluators have this drafts prospects heavy on talented defensive players and offensive linemen. Can you develop later round offensive linemen? Sure, but the Bills lost much of the o-line coaching staff that was successful when they fired Gailey. We seem to have short term memories when it comes to how bad our offensive lines were before Gailey's coaching staff came in and seemed to perform miracles with linemen off the FA scrap heap, and Gailey instituted a quick read and throw offense. When I watch Manuel against a strong rush and better defenses (like Notre Dame's) he breaks down and runs, if we do not have a good line in front of any rookie QB he will not check down, nor look downfield for options. Rather he will not develop into anything more than a shell-shocked mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 So, let me rephrase my question. If the Patriots had the #1 overall pick, Bill Belichick would choose EJ Manuel? They would trade down 3 times and pick up 3 firsts and 2 2nds in next years draft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOKBILLS Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 OK, I hear you. You sound totally convinced on Manuel. No harm in having an opinion. It's all good. FWIW, I am not 100% sold on Manuel. You know...I'm not 100% sold on him either Sisyphean...Manuel comes with a buyer beware tag no question...He's going to have get Coached up, and his down-the-field accuracy has to improve...But when I watch Manuel on tape I definitely see some Kapernick-type qualities...And I think if you look at their Sr years passing-wise, Manuel and Kaepernick are actually very similar...The difference being that Manuel played some slightly better competition...Also, I really like Manuel's win-loss record as a Starter... One last thing about Manuel I found on Sports-Reference.com...He's the all time single season leader in the ACC for yards per play...He's 2nd all time in the ACC for career yards per play...I like that stat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VBBILLZ13 Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Hell No!!! You want to give up 3 of our 6 picks to move up SMH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Not that your not entitled to your opinion but as I read through some scouting reports on him I'd say he has concerns. - decision making - accuracy - struggles to work through progressions - didn't play we'll against good defenses - not a natural passer You know Wayne, if these were actual NFL scouting reports I might put some credence into them but even NFL scouts are wrong quite a bit. The scouting reports you're reading I can't speak to but most of what's out there is derivative, secondary stuff or amateur stuff. I'd rather trust my own amateur opinion than someone else's. I agree that Manuel is the only read-option capable QB if that is the direction Marone goes with his offense, as a pure pocket passer I think that Dysert is a good bargain in the later rounds. Arguably one of the strongest arms that can hit all the throws, got the snot beat out of him but was durable and mentally strong, and had probably the worst supporting cast of receivers I have ever seen at a quality college program. We disagree on the BPA approach, but the Bills front office has not had a penchant for finding and developing the BPA so that could be a wash - but there are some new faces in the war room this year. Most talent evaluators have this drafts prospects heavy on talented defensive players and offensive linemen. Can you develop later round offensive linemen? Sure, but the Bills lost much of the o-line coaching staff that was successful when they fired Gailey. We seem to have short term memories when it comes to how bad our offensive lines were before Gailey's coaching staff came in and seemed to perform miracles with linemen off the FA scrap heap, and Gailey instituted a quick read and throw offense. When I watch Manuel against a strong rush and better defenses (like Notre Dame's) he breaks down and runs, if we do not have a good line in front of any rookie QB he will not check down, nor look downfield for options. Rather he will not develop into anything more than a shell-shocked mess. To the suitability of Manuel to whatever Marrone runs, that's a huge concern of mine and the reason I think Barkley or Nassib (unfortunately) are in play here. I admit to not having "scouted" Dysert yet. As far as BPA you're right. It is at least arguable that Dareus was BPA although several players had a claim to that title (AJ Green, Patrick Peterson). However at least Dareus was viewed, like Warmack, as a can't miss stud player. The scouting report on Dareus was that he was a larger version of Warren Sapp. In my book if you're gonna miss, miss on a QB with a huge upside, not on a DT or a guard. As for Manuel being a read-option guy, I saw numerous snaps where he was under center. His dropback is very fast and smooth. Having a great arm and excellent height and intelligence, there's no question in my mind that he could learn and grow into any system, just like I believe Kaepernick is more than just a read option guy. Kaepernick's ability to run 60 yards for a TD obscured for many, the fact that he was consistently making throws that 90% of NFL quarterbacks could only dream of making. The same goes for Manuel, IMO. Finally to your point about the O-line, everyone wants to credit Joe D for a great job coaching that line. It's just as likely that the O-line was very talented and that their performance had more to do with talent than coaching. Yes we lost Levitre and Rinehart but improving at quarterback will have a much more profound effect than filling the perceived hole at guard, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 You know Wayne, if these were actual NFL scouting reports I might put some credence into them but even NFL scouts are wrong quite a bit. The scouting reports you're reading I can't speak to but most of what's out there is derivative, secondary stuff or amateur stuff. I'd rather trust my own amateur opinion than someone else's. Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdBlueNorth Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 You know Wayne, if these were actual NFL scouting reports I might put some credence into them but even NFL scouts are wrong quite a bit. The scouting reports you're reading I can't speak to but most of what's out there is derivative, secondary stuff or amateur stuff. I'd rather trust my own amateur opinion than someone else's. To the suitability of Manuel to whatever Marrone runs, that's a huge concern of mine and the reason I think Barkley or Nassib (unfortunately) are in play here. I admit to not having "scouted" Dysert yet. As far as BPA you're right. It is at least arguable that Dareus was BPA although several players had a claim to that title (AJ Green, Patrick Peterson). However at least Dareus was viewed, like Warmack, as a can't miss stud player. The scouting report on Dareus was that he was a larger version of Warren Sapp. In my book if you're gonna miss, miss on a QB with a huge upside, not on a DT or a guard. As for Manuel being a read-option guy, I saw numerous snaps where he was under center. His dropback is very fast and smooth. Having a great arm and excellent height and intelligence, there's no question in my mind that he could learn and grow into any system, just like I believe Kaepernick is more than just a read option guy. Kaepernick's ability to run 60 yards for a TD obscured for many, the fact that he was consistently making throws that 90% of NFL quarterbacks could only dream of making. The same goes for Manuel, IMO. Finally to your point about the O-line, everyone wants to credit Joe D for a great job coaching that line. It's just as likely that the O-line was very talented and that their performance had more to do with talent than coaching. Yes we lost Levitre and Rinehart but improving at quarterback will have a much more profound effect than filling the perceived hole at guard, IMO. Not saying Manuel cannot play under center. He actually looks pretty comfortable under center or shotgun. Was just saying he was the only QB prospect that looked like he could run a read option offense, basically he has the wheels and has pretty good run instincts. I do not think that he has the size or strength of Kapernick which would make his durability questionable. The 49ers also have good blocking and mobile guards that can execute the run blocking up the middle or sell the fake to Gore and still do a really good job coming back with some nasty kick out blocks on the OLB and DEs to free Kaepernick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevWarRifleman Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Should the Bills trade up to #1.....and get what? Plus give away future draft picks that we really need in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 Should the Bills trade up to #1.....and get what? Plus give away future draft picks that we really need in the future? A QB, their largest need for almost the past 15 years, and the most important position in the NFL. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gianelli Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Bills don't draft african american quarterbacks... Let alone dress them... I realize you're talking about recent years. You're probably not old enough to remember James Harris: Harris was drafted in the eighth round of the Common Draft by the American Football League's Buffalo Bills, and would soon join fellow rookie O.J. Simpson in the starting backfield. Continuing the American Football League's more liberal (than the NFL's) personnel policies, the Bills made Harris the first black player to start a season at quarterback, thus Harris became the first black quarterback to start a game in the history of the National Football League. Harris went on to play well for the L.A. Rams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djp14150 Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 I could be wrong, I don't see Geno Smith as the player you put it all out on the table for. I agree.... I wouldnt mortgage the future to draft a QB early in this draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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