Nanker Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 people wouldn't need 2 jobs if they were paid a living wage for 1. then unemployment goes down. 2 birds with one stone. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA/ You really are clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 For the love of might. What the !@#$ about the 20 million Americans that are out of work and can't find a job? Nooooooooo! Don't look at that. See - over there - there's a million people who are destitute, I say - destitute! Throw THEM a life raft before I choke on my brie. Jesus H. Christ, every last person is supposed to make at least $50k a year? How many of those poor souls maybe have two jobs, or are working in the black market, or are going to school part time to better themselves, or are in family owned businesses, or their own startups, or any of a dozen other situations that could account for their status. I wonder how many of those 3% of adults making minimum wage are on Social Security and are of the age where they will start to lose benefits if they make more than "x" amount? Greeters at Walmart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I wonder how many of those 3% of adults making minimum wage are on Social Security and are of the age where they will start to lose benefits if they make more than "x" amount? Greeters at Walmart? Exactly. And they also add to Walmart's sea of workers that aren't covered by private healthcare insurance - because they're already on Medicaid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Exactly. And they also add to Walmart's sea of workers that aren't covered by private healthcare insurance - because they're already on Medicaid. keep telling yourself that if it soothes whatever vestiges of conscience remain in your vacuous soul. have you never seen/met any working poor people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepthefaith Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 keep telling yourself that if it soothes whatever vestiges of conscience remain in your vacuous soul. have you never seen/met any working poor people? Yes and I have employed some. Some of those people have been big rehab projects. We've tried and at the end of the day you see the reason why so many people are unsuccessful in their working careers. If often boils down to the very basics. The common threads are their inability and/or unwillingness to conquer the basics of being to work on time, being honest, being able to communicate verbally and in writing, having pride in their work and showing a willingness to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 The common threads are their inability and/or unwillingness to conquer the basics of being to work on time, being honest, being able to communicate verbally and in writing, having pride in their work and showing a willingness to learn. Yes but that will all change if you just pay them more based on the liberal premise that "you can afford it." Once they earn more money for no viable reason, they'll immediately be better employees. It's the fair thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 keep telling yourself that if it soothes whatever vestiges of conscience remain in your vacuous soul. have you never seen/met any working poor people? Ah yes, the self righteous maven with all the answers to the innumerable inequities in life pontificates loudly and proudly for all to see and hear. Oh how brave thou art to so nobly stand up for those you perceive as being trapped in poverty for the sole reason that the minimum wage isn't $25 an hour this year and going up to $30 an hour next. And yes your assholiness I was born into a poor working class family - unlike you who was born with a silver cervical spoon in your mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 If everyone made $25 per hour then nobody would be poor, just like if everyone had a college degree then no one would be poor, just like if everyone owned a house then nobody would be poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 so we've gone through all the tired, old, lame excuses for not increasing the minimum wage: 1.deny the existence of the working poor 2.put forth that those making minimum wage are not trying to support a family on their wages. it's just kids working for pocket money 3. demonize the working poor. they're all useless workers. don't earn their pay. untrainable. lazy, etc.4. admit that there are some working poor but that a very tiny group of people are affected. 5.ad hominem attacks (but living in a glass house in this thread, i'll keep my stones to myself on this one).6. and finally, taa daaaaa, the good ole strawman of a living wage must equal a middle class wage. it's important to remember that none of these excuses are remotely true. in fact, they're patently false. but that won't stop you the next time this comes up from spouting them off. maybe you could come up with something of real substance and surprise everyone. i won't hold my breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 so we've gone through all the tired, old, lame excuses for not increasing the minimum wage: 1.deny the existence of the working poor 2.put forth that those making minimum wage are not trying to support a family on their wages. it's just kids working for pocket money 3. demonize the working poor. they're all useless workers. don't earn their pay. untrainable. lazy, etc.4. admit that there are some working poor but that a very tiny group of people are affected. 5.ad hominem attacks (but living in a glass house in this thread, i'll keep my stones to myself on this one).6. and finally, taa daaaaa, the good ole strawman of a living wage must equal a middle class wage. it's important to remember that none of these excuses are remotely true. in fact, they're patently false. but that won't stop you the next time this comes up from spouting them off. maybe you could come up with something of real substance and surprise everyone. i won't hold my breath. You can rant and rave about the working poor, livable wages, and the horrors of poverty all day long but it still doesn't explain how your "raise the minimum wage" magic bullet solves a god-damned thing. Why don't you provide evidence that the current minimum wage is significantly below the market wage dictated by economic fundamentals and then describe what effect this delta, if it exists, has on macro conditions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjamie12 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 so we've gone through all the tired, old, lame excuses for not increasing the minimum wage: 1.deny the existence of the working poor 2.put forth that those making minimum wage are not trying to support a family on their wages. it's just kids working for pocket money 3. demonize the working poor. they're all useless workers. don't earn their pay. untrainable. lazy, etc.4. admit that there are some working poor but that a very tiny group of people are affected. 5.ad hominem attacks (but living in a glass house in this thread, i'll keep my stones to myself on this one).6. and finally, taa daaaaa, the good ole strawman of a living wage must equal a middle class wage. it's important to remember that none of these excuses are remotely true. in fact, they're patently false. but that won't stop you the next time this comes up from spouting them off. maybe you could come up with something of real substance and surprise everyone. i won't hold my breath. Honest questions: Do you think that adjusting the minimum wage up to (insert $$ here) has zero effect on the number of people employed? - If you do, why are you less concerned about those people that this proposal would affect? Do you think that the vast majority of people earning minimum wage are the primary breadwinners of a family? - If not, why do you use things like the 'poverty line' or 'living wage' to buttress your arguments? Do you see how that doesn't make sense? Do you think there's NO legitimate reason for having the 'minimum wage' be something different than a 'living wage'? - If not -- You honestly believe that high school kids stocking shelves and / or washing dishes 'deserve' this 'living wage', rather than the 'minimum wage'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I'm going to ask SDS to create an internal medicine sub-forum so that meazza, magox, tasker, chef, TPS, and I can all go over there pretending to be experts on **** we've only heard about on TV and see how you !@#$s like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mead107 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Lets just cut everyone's pay 25% in stead of raising minimum wage. tax everyone at 50% no matter what you make. No property tax and gas should be $8 per gallon with $3 going to repair roads. If you are an elected senator or congressman your pay can only be what Walmart pays it part time employes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 so we've gone through all the tired, old, lame excuses for not increasing the minimum wage: I didn't say I was for or against. What I said was that we need to do extensive studies, done by honest brokers who can determine the impacts good and bad. You scoffed at that suggestion, which makes you an ideologue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) Honest questions: Do you think that adjusting the minimum wage up to (insert $$ here) has zero effect on the number of people employed? - If you do, why are you less concerned about those people that this proposal would affect? Do you think that the vast majority of people earning minimum wage are the primary breadwinners of a family? - If not, why do you use things like the 'poverty line' or 'living wage' to buttress your arguments? Do you see how that doesn't make sense? Do you think there's NO legitimate reason for having the 'minimum wage' be something different than a 'living wage'? - If not -- You honestly believe that high school kids stocking shelves and / or washing dishes 'deserve' this 'living wage', rather than the 'minimum wage'? honestly, i don't think the number of minimum wage jobs would decrease significantly if the min wage went up 2-3 dollars. here's why: these aren't discretionary jobs. they're a necessity or they wouldn't exist. companies aren't hiring low wage workers for a lifetime of loyalty. they hire them when and if they need them. and lay them off without a backward glance when things slow down. for reasons i earlier detailed, these workers aren't a massive percentage of variable cost in comp[arison to other fixed and variable costs. price increases for goods and services in many cases would be small.in answer, to NO reason question: if it was felt likely that such a move would destroy the economy (in the same way the sequester or failure to raise the debt limit does) then i would oppose it. i don't bel;ieve that to be the case and feel their are much more serious threats to the economy than this.yes. i believe everones labor should be valued at a level that a full time employee at any job can afford the basic necessities:food, shelter, basic health care I didn't say I was for or against. What I said was that we need to do extensive studies, done by honest brokers who can determine the impacts good and bad. You scoffed at that suggestion, which makes you an ideologue. that wasn't aimed at you. I'm going to ask SDS to create an internal medicine sub-forum so that meazza, magox, tasker, chef, TPS, and I can all go over there pretending to be experts on **** we've only heard about on TV and see how you !@#$s like it. i owned a small business for almost 20 uyears. i have some experience with personnel issues. Edited February 21, 2013 by birdog1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 honestly, i don't think the number of minimum wage jobs would decrease significantly if the min wage went up 2-3 dollars. here's why: these aren't discretionary jobs. they're a necessity or they wouldn't exist. companies aren't hiring low wage workers for a lifetime of loyalty. they hire them when and if they need them. and lay them off without a backward glance when things slow down. for reasons i earlier detailed, these workers aren't a massive percentage of variable cost in comp[arison to other fixed and variable costs. price increases for goods and services in many cases would be small.in answer, to NO reason question: if it was felt likely that such a move would destroy the economy (in the same way the sequester or failure to raise the debt limit does) then i would oppose it. i don't bel;ieve that to be the case and feel their are much more serious threats to the economy than this.yes. i believe everones labor should be valued at a level that a full time employee at any job can afford the basic necessities:food, shelter, basic health care Your first assertion is totally wrong. For an explanation, look no further than your follow up which I bolded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Your first assertion is totally wrong. For an explanation, look no further than your follow up which I bolded. exactly. the wording may be awkward but i think the point stands. low wage jobs exist because they are necessary. there isn't a surplus because these workers are a bargain. higher their wages slightly won't make their jobs any less necessary. or would you propose hiring illegals under the table? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 exactly. the wording may be awkward but i think the point stands. low wage jobs exist because they are necessary. there isn't a surplus because these workers are a bargain. higher their wages slightly won't make their jobs any less necessary. or would you propose hiring illegals under the table? The wording, although clumsy, isn't the problem. The problem which I not so subtly tried to point out is that you suggest that these jobs aren't "discretionary" and then go on to provide the very definition of discretionary. The only thing that stands is that you have a totally unsubstantiated opinion or some gut feeling that significant increases to minimum wage will have negligible effects on overall employment levels based on a one sized fits all cost structure, some misguided ideas about fairness and the assumption that business owners will ignore declining returns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 The only thing that stands is that you have a totally unsubstantiated opinion or some gut feeling that significant increases to minimum wage will have negligible effects on overall employment levels based on a one sized fits all cost structure, some misguided ideas about fairness and the assumption that business owners will ignore declining returns. I think that pretty much nails it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdog1960 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 The wording, although clumsy, isn't the problem. The problem which I not so subtly tried to point out is that you suggest that these jobs aren't "discretionary" and then go on to provide the very definition of discretionary. The only thing that stands is that you have a totally unsubstantiated opinion or some gut feeling that significant increases to minimum wage will have negligible effects on overall employment levels based on a one sized fits all cost structure, some misguided ideas about fairness and the assumption that business owners will ignore declining returns. places like wal mart close without low wage workers. is $9 an hour going to put them out of business? they had a bad quarter last quarter but if their employees can buy more of their stuff they should do just fine. they operate in countries, at a profit, that have higher wages for low paid workers eg germany. so do multiple fast food franchises. mcdonald's is in virtually every 1st world country, some with very high costs of living and consequently wage structures. there are burger kings in switzerland with higher paid low strata workers...more expensive than here but still in business. so my reasoning is not empirical at all. it's based on examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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