Buffalo Bills Pursuing Continuity With Buddy Nix, Chan Gailey

[Sisyphean Bills]

1. "Would the 49ers have righted the ship (winning records, playoff appearances, etc.) by keeping one of the coaches they fired from 2003-2012 instead of firing them?"

 

This probably belongs in another thread, but the 49ers situation is an interesting one. They were in a very similar pattern to the Bills for quite some time. They have emerged out the other side, and the Bills have not. Besides the coaching difference, which is quite obvious, there is another large difference. The draft. Crabtree, Staley, Iupati, Davis, Davis, Gore, Miller, Smith, Kaepernick, Smith, Willis, McDonald, Sopoaga, Bowman, Brown, Goldson are all starters that were drafted by the 49ers. Furthermore, none of them are rookies and most of them have been with the team more than 2 years. The 49ers have 6 of their own 1st round picks starting if you count Smith. Compare the Bills: Only 1 first round pick not selected by Nix is even on the team and he was a backup to Aaron Friggin Williams.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I'm done talking about this, apparently I get warning points for having my opinion, so I'll stop. You all know where I stand. Continuity is best for us for reasons I've highlighted. We'll leave it at that and agree to disagree. It's been fun debating, and I see where you all are coming from. It's frusterating, I understand. I'm one of the most frustrated people about this team, and my friends would call me nothing if not one of the most fanatical people about a team they have ever met. I stand by my Bills and stand by whatever decision they make. Through this all, the one thread that combines us all is that we're all fans and we only want to see the team succeed, and I can take solice in that, though our opinions may differ. They are just that, opinions.

 

With that said, GO BILLS!!!

 

The trouble is your "reasons" aren't very sound. 1) Unspecified "tweaks" might happen. 2) Nobody knows for sure what might happen. 3) The Bills have tried new coaches before and it hasn't worked.

 

You've cloaked yourself in the red, white, and blue of a true fan. Blindly believing in the decisions made by an organization that has proven time and again to make very poor decisions in many aspects of their business is your choice.

 

However, "continuity" is seriously flawed reasoning. It's working backwards from an effect. The actual mistake is hiring the wrong people in the first place. If you read the original article, who is it that has stuck by Fitzpatrick the entire time? Who continues to make that decision every week? Fixing the mistake means hiring the right person, not sitting in fear or stubbornly prolonging the inevitable.

[HamSandwhich]

The trouble is your "reasons" aren't very sound. 1) Unspecified "tweaks" might happen. 2) Nobody knows for sure what might happen. 3) The Bills have tried new coaches before and it hasn't worked.

 

You've cloaked yourself in the red, white, and blue of a true fan. Blindly believing in the decisions made by an organization that has proven time and again to make very poor decisions in many aspects of their business is your choice.

 

However, "continuity" is seriously flawed reasoning. It's working backwards from an effect. The actual mistake is hiring the wrong people in the first place. If you read the original article, who is it that has stuck by Fitzpatrick the entire time? Who continues to make that decision every week? Fixing the mistake means hiring the right person, not sitting in fear or stubbornly prolonging the inevitable.

 

I respect your opinion and will not argue, as I said I would not, but don't paint me as a person you think I am. I'm as frusterated as most fans.

[thewildrabbit]

First of all. I HATE the saying "nothin for nothin" it's absolutely stupid.

 

Second- Didnt you read my post? I said I love this team and I love the football experience. As long as the team is here, I will gladly spend a minuscule amount of $440 for a season ticket. At the very least, it's fun to hang with friends on Sundays. Drink some beers. And have some good food at a tailgate.

 

And if I ever leave the city of Buffalo and to a city where another NFL team plays, ill be a season ticket holder to that team as well.

 

Again, I LOVE THIS TEAM, I LOVE THE NFL EXPERIENCE!!! It is absolutely worth it to go to games on Sundays. Maybe you don't live here and don't have the availability to go to every home game. I DO! I WILL! Regardless of the product in the field.

First of all, NFN means "Not for nothing"

 

I get that you love the Bills. i get that you love to go to games and tailgate with friends. I get that you go to the games and have your season seats with all the friends around you. I did the same thing for many years during the late 80's and early 90's

 

I had season tickets in the same seats from 1988-1994. I saw many many home games won by the Buffalo Bills, went to 4 super bowls, 5 AFC championship games, playoff games in Miami, Cleveland and Cincinnati. I know what its like to be part of the party atmosphere that surrounds an NFL game, and playoff games, yea, its it was fun.

 

But the stark reality is, it sucks to spend money on a bad product. If I were a billionaire I still wouldn't waste my money on Bills season tickets to support a bad product. The tickets and merchandise could be nearly free and I would avoid it on principle. Look at the history of the franchise. This owner will never cave in to hiring a top coach as along as his stadium is filled. A simple fact, but sadly true.

 

The Bills have gotten so bad lately that I no longer even watch the games anymore. Its not worth the frustration and anguish that goes with all the losing. I hate losing! I now watch some college ball and other NFL games. My son now has season seats, and every year I try and convince him that he is wasting his money, although to no avail.

 

I would like to attend games again with my son and family, I just refuse to support a crap team.

[mrags]

 

 

I respect your opinion and will not argue, as I said I would not, but don't paint me as a person you think I am. I'm as frusterated as most fans.

Im actually hoping for continuity for one reason alone. To crush your opinions into the ground over and over again. I want your fandom to be crushed.

 

For 1 reason alone. Because with the Bills continuing with this piece of crap FO and coaching staff, they are personally doing these things to you. All while emptying your pockets and laughing about it the entire time.

 

They are losing. Have continued to lose. Continuity is bulls#*t if your continuously suck. Chans has a worse record than any if the last 3 coaches that have been shown the door. In all honesty, he might be the worst when it comes to gametime decisions, clock management, game management, player management, play calls, and system. Throwing on 3rd and 2 out of an empty backfield, 5 WR set proves that. Running a draw on 3rd and 17 prices that. Throwing a 2 yard screen or slant on 3rd and 15 proves that.

 

This coach is a career loser. Plain and simple. He was a bad choice when we got him in the first place. Most of us gave him the benefit of the doubt but he has proven to be a horrible coach. To be the worst coach we've had since before the Marv Years.

 

Get over your love for him. He WILL NEVER BE GOOD. But again, hey, if he comes back to coach again next year, ill be laughing historically at people that think he can field a winner.

[Cash]

This probably belongs in another thread, but the 49ers situation is an interesting one. They were in a very similar pattern to the Bills for quite some time. They have emerged out the other side, and the Bills have not. Besides the coaching difference, which is quite obvious, there is another large difference. The draft. Crabtree, Staley, Iupati, Davis, Davis, Gore, Miller, Smith, Kaepernick, Smith, Willis, McDonald, Sopoaga, Bowman, Brown, Goldson are all starters that were drafted by the 49ers. Furthermore, none of them are rookies and most of them have been with the team more than 2 years. The 49ers have 6 of their own 1st round picks starting if you count Smith. Compare the Bills: Only 1 first round pick not selected by Nix is even on the team and he was a backup to Aaron Friggin Williams.

 

Very good point, although we should really just look at 49ers draftees who were with the team pre-Harbaugh, which removes Aldon Smith, Colin Kaepernick, and Bruce Miller (FB). Actually, looking at the 49ers' last two drafts, they're kind of underwhelming for such a good team. Obviously Aldon Smith is a big-time difference maker, but Kaepernick didn't play a down last year and they went 13-3. Bruce Miller is a fullback. Kendall Hunter & LaMichael James are decent players, but very replaceable. No one else ever plays, near as I can tell.

 

Anyway, the point is that the 49ers have a loaded team, but it's mostly loaded with players drafted before the current head coach was hired. And yet the team was terrible then. Granted, there've also been some free agent signings, but it really looks like the big difference is coaching. Which is an argument against "continuity," but I'd like to get a little more nuanced here. Think about some of those 1st-round picks who are/were starting for the 49ers. Alex Smith, Vernon Davis, and Michael Crabtree were all considered busts at one point or another. (In fairness, Davis turned it around under Singletary, but that wasn't until his 4th year in the league.) Most teams would have parted ways with at least 2 of them, if not all 3, well before Harbaugh was able to turn the ship around. Alex Smith even re-signed with the 49ers after his contract expired.

 

So in that regard, here's a very strong case study for continuity. But "continuity" in this case doesn't mean retain the head coach, it means retain the players. Which I agree with. (Example: Obviously we all want Byrd & Levitre back, but what about McKelvin? He's a comparable bust to Crabtree or Smith, and he's shown this year that he can help a team in the right situation. And maybe the next coach can get a little more out of him.) I don't want Gailey fired in favor of someone who will truly blow it up, cutting veterans left & right because they don't suit his system or whatever. I do want Gailey fired in favor of someone who might do a better job of getting our talented players to play up to their abilities. And if that guy doesn't show any of that ability in a few years, then fire him and try again. But I think there is real value in a certain amount of roster stability, as long as it's conditional. For example, when the 49ers re-signed Alex Smith, it was with the full understanding that he had no claim on the starting job and was likely to be a backup. That's an extremely rare attitude for a first-round pick, let alone #1 overall. In the case of Fitz, once we have a replacement starter on the roster, he'll probably need to be cut, just because he's making starter money.

[HamSandwhich]

Im actually hoping for continuity for one reason alone. To crush your opinions into the ground over and over again. I want your fandom to be crushed.

 

For 1 reason alone. Because with the Bills continuing with this piece of crap FO and coaching staff, they are personally doing these things to you. All while emptying your pockets and laughing about it the entire time.

 

They are losing. Have continued to lose. Continuity is bulls#*t if your continuously suck. Chans has a worse record than any if the last 3 coaches that have been shown the door. In all honesty, he might be the worst when it comes to gametime decisions, clock management, game management, player management, play calls, and system. Throwing on 3rd and 2 out of an empty backfield, 5 WR set proves that. Running a draw on 3rd and 17 prices that. Throwing a 2 yard screen or slant on 3rd and 15 proves that.

 

This coach is a career loser. Plain and simple. He was a bad choice when we got him in the first place. Most of us gave him the benefit of the doubt but he has proven to be a horrible coach. To be the worst coach we've had since before the Marv Years.

 

Get over your love for him. He WILL NEVER BE GOOD. But again, hey, if he comes back to coach again next year, ill be laughing historically at people that think he can field a winner.

 

Once again, you've painted me a person I am not, I do not love Chan Gailey, merely think he's the better alternative to bringing in a whole new crew. My spirits won't be crushed, I will always be a Bills fan. Why would you wish down on your own team? Schadenfreuden I see, that's not going to help the fortunes of the Bills organization.

Edited December 19, 2012 by HamSandwhich

[mrags]

I think the biggest thing Cash, is looking at the play of Smith pre Harbaugh and now. He was more of a joke in this league than Fitz. Yet now he will be the big FA pickup for someone this year. Harbaugh has really played to thier strengths and its worked. If Chan would do that, we'd be in the playoff picture right now.

[Sisyphean Bills]

and my friends would call me nothing if not one of the most fanatical people about a team they have ever met. I stand by my Bills and stand by whatever decision they make.

I respect your opinion and will not argue, as I said I would not, but don't paint me as a person you think I am. I'm as frusterated as most fans.

I was debating the points you've made in this and other threads. I don't know you, but I respect that you have an opinion. My comment about blind faith was purely a response to what you wrote bolded above.

[HamSandwhich]

I was debating the points you've made in this and other threads. I don't know you, but I respect that you have an opinion. My comment about blind faith was purely a response to what you wrote bolded above.

 

Fantaical does not = blind faith.

[Maury Ballstein]

some people enjoy getting kicked in the groin too i guess.

 

an infinite amount of solid points as to why gailey shouldn't be retained have been mentioned on this thread.

 

not many points have been brought up that support Chan's cause or vision or whatever it is that he does for this team.

 

this is an open forum not an argument, you have your side Ham. nothing wrong with that.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Ryan L Billz

[San-O]

Pursuing Continuity With Buddy Nix, Chan Gailey = consistency = status quo.

 

Let them play the "status quo" card this year, and see how many fewer tickets they sell. Also, players aren't stupid and they

will begin to understand the Bills aren't really that interested in winning. Besides, if Ralph doesn't know Chan is losing the team

he will next year. It could get ugly fast. Next year's schedule may not be as kind.

[Cash]

I think the biggest thing Cash, is looking at the play of Smith pre Harbaugh and now. He was more of a joke in this league than Fitz. Yet now he will be the big FA pickup for someone this year. Harbaugh has really played to thier strengths and its worked. If Chan would do that, we'd be in the playoff picture right now.

 

Totally agree, and that's one of the reasons I don't want us to sign Smith (unless we also draft a QB, at which point why not just keep Fitz and draft a QB?). But the one valid point Ham Sando has made in this thread is that you can't predict how good a new hire will be, and certainly can't expect him to be as good as Harbaugh. I don't see that as a good enough argument on its own, because even a 1% chance of the new guy being good is better than the 0% chance (as I see it) of Chan becoming a good coach.

 

I think the point I'm trying to make is that there's value in keeping a guy with talent around, even if he doesn't show it as often as you'd like, because the problem may be as much coaching as anything else. When you finally find that good coach, he'll be successful a lot sooner if he's got some talent to work with when he arrives. This doesn't mean that every high draft pick gets to stay on the team forever: Cutting Aaron Maybin when they did was absolutely the right move, and if Aaron Williams stays this bad over the next couple years, there's no way you could bring him back.

 

EDIT: Just want to say that I guess part of my point is that one of the reasons we've continued to suck these 13 years is that we haven't been keeping our players around. Cut Fletcher, draft Poz. Let Poz walk, sign Barnett. Trade McGahee for a pair of 3rd rounders, draft Lynch at #12 instead of bolstering the O-line. Trade Lynch for a pair of 4th rounders, draft Spiller at #9 instead of getting a pass rusher. Winfield, Clements, and Jabari Greer all left as free agents in their primes and were at least okay starters elsewhere. Now, I don't think that Gregggggg or Meathead or Dick "Walking Dead" Jauron would have done very well if we had retained all those guys or even most of them. But maybe Jauron goes 9-7 one year instead of his standard 7-9. Maybe we would've even snuck into the playoffs as a #6 seed one year.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Cash

[CodeMonkey]

For me personally, I have no problem pulling the plug on Gailey after this season.

He has shown absolutely nothing in the way of coaching ability in his three years in Buffalo, nor in any of his other jobs at the NFL or collegiate level. There is no reason to expect him to be any different next season than he has been in his entire career. BUT if and only if the Bills can hire someone who they have good reason to believe will do a better job. I do not support in any way firing Gailey just out of blind rage then having to hire someone else worse because no one else better will accept the job.

 

For me the jury is still out on Nix. But the same caveat applies, they would need to have someone lined up who they have good reason to believe would be better and who would accept the job.

[KOKBILLS]

The trouble is your "reasons" aren't very sound. 1) Unspecified "tweaks" might happen. 2) Nobody knows for sure what might happen. 3) The Bills have tried new coaches before and it hasn't worked.

 

You've cloaked yourself in the red, white, and blue of a true fan. Blindly believing in the decisions made by an organization that has proven time and again to make very poor decisions in many aspects of their business is your choice.

 

However, "continuity" is seriously flawed reasoning. It's working backwards from an effect. The actual mistake is hiring the wrong people in the first place. If you read the original article, who is it that has stuck by Fitzpatrick the entire time? Who continues to make that decision every week? Fixing the mistake means hiring the right person, not sitting in fear or stubbornly prolonging the inevitable.

 

Success allows continuity...And when you have success,continuity makes total sense...Continuity does not necessarily assure success...And preaching continuity when you have had terrible results is just stupid...Here's an idea...Lets stick with what is not working for the sake of continuity!!! Just stick with it long enough and success is going to magically appear!!! It's dumb...really, really, dumb...

[HamSandwhich]

Success allows continuity...And when you have success,continuity makes total sense...Continuity does not necessarily assure success...And preaching continuity when you have had terrible results is just stupid...Here's an idea...Lets stick with what is not working for the sake of continuity!!! Just stick with it long enough and success is going to magically appear!!! It's dumb...really, really, dumb...

 

Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it!

[mrags]

 

 

Thats your opinion and you're entitled to it!

its also the opinion of the majority of NFL owners that fire their head coaches after sub standard tenures.

 

I'm not going to do the work, but I'd guess that in the last 20 or so years of the league, nobody with a 15-31 record over 3 years has ever been retained.

[Beerball]

its also the opinion of the majority of NFL owners that fire their head coaches after sub standard tenures.

 

I'm not going to do the work, but I'd guess that in the last 20 or so years of the league, nobody with a 15-31 record over 3 years has ever been retained.

Gailey is really really bad, but there are some worse. David Shula and Dave McGinnis are two recent ones.

 

Link

[Omar Little]

Gailey is really really bad, but there are some worse. David Shula and Dave McGinnis are two recent ones.

 

Link

 

Notice the two coaches you cited worked for a pair of the '90s most incompetent organizations. The Bills are one of the league's most incompetent franchises now, so I guess it wouldn't be too surprising if Gailey got a another year. It also won't be surprising when he fails as miserably as Shula and McGinnes did when they were inexplicably awarded extra opportunities. If some fans want Gailey to stay for continuity's sake, they'll get their continuity in the form of more failure.

[flmike]

Hate to add to the gloominess, but even when the ownership eventually changes the new guy or group will be so leveraged to pay the highest auction price that there will be no money for good coaches or players for some time. We'll be Cleveland... Right now no one wants to work for the Bills because the ownership could change pretty quickly.