Good lord, the Pats just keep getting better

[RealityCheck]

I only know one thing. The current incarnation of the Patriots can't win the big one. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they missed the playoffs much like they did the last time they lost the Super Bowl. So let it be written...

[Pneumonic]

Dude--the point of the thread was to discuss the Pats* "drafting prowess" this year and you've been owned. Quit trying to change the subject and face it (or respond to my post above laying out pretty precisely why your original point on such prowess was ridiculous).

 

As for your attempted deflection, no one can deny that he's had a very good team year in and year out since Brady (the one other constant over that period) stepped to the fore. Let's see how Belicheat does without a HOF QB in a couple of years (and I use that term intentionally, since I suspect Brady will be done either by choice or not by choice after the 2013 season)--then we'll have a pretty good idea of who was responsible for these teams. That may actually turn out to be pretty funny, as payback is, well, you know....

Brady has stated publicly that he wants to play until he's forty. Unless you have information to the contrary, that means he intends to play until 2017.

 

As for the draft part, maybe I misunderstood ...... can we clarify what draft years are in question again?

[MattM]

Brady has stated publicly that he wants to play until he's forty. Unless you have information to the contrary, that means he intends to play until 2017.

 

As for the draft part, maybe I misunderstood ...... can we clarify what draft years are in question again?

 

 

I know what Brady has said; now whether (a) his body allows him to play at a high level for more than one or two more years and (b) whether he follow through on his promise to try to play until he's 40 is the real question. Personally, I'd say that he's going to be an elite QB for at most 2 more seasons, but we'll see.

 

In terms of the latter point, we were talking about how the Pats*' recent drafts and how they've done as a way to prognosticate on their current draft. You then pointed out that they're the best drafting team in the League (or implied it) by pointing to the fact in a PFT article stating that they had drafted the most Pro Bowlers over the last ten years' worth of Pro Bowls. I and others then showed you more immediately above that most of those players had been drafted about 15 or so years ago and that their recent more recent drafts (with the possible exception of 2010) have really been nothing to write home about, and, I'd go so far as to say they'd have gotten other GM's fired absent the kind of production on the field in terms of W-L that the Pats* have had (very little of which was because of said recent draftees). Personally not too sure how drafting a bunch of great players 15 years ago (when he had many other people no longer with the team with a hand in the draft) and very few recently (when said folks have moved on) means this year was likely to be a great one, but we'll see....

Edited April 29, 2012 by MattM

[Captain Hindsight]

Do the Patriots really scare anyone anymore? Honestly

[Pneumonic]

I know what Brady has said; now whether (a) his body allows him to play at a high level for more than one or two more years and (b) whether he follow through on his promise to try to play until he's 40 is the real question. Personally, I'd say that he's going to be an elite QB for at most 2 more seasons, but we'll see.

 

In terms of the latter point, we were talking about how the Pats*' recent drafts and how they've done as a way to prognosticate on their current draft. You then pointed out that they're the best drafting team in the League (or implied it) by pointing to the fact in a PFT article stating that they had drafted the most Pro Bowlers over the last ten years' worth of Pro Bowls. I and others then showed you more immediately above that most of those players had been drafted about 15 or so years ago and that their recent more recent drafts (with the possible exception of 2010) have really been nothing to write home about, and, I'd go so far as to say they'd have gotten other GM's fired absent the kind of production on the field in terms of W-L that the Pats* have had (very little of which was because of said recent draftees). Personally not too sure how drafting a bunch of great players 15 years ago (when he had many other people no longer with the team with a hand in the draft) and very few recently (when said folks have moved on) means this year was likely to be a great one, but we'll see....

On the Brady front .... not sure why you'd feel he's wearing out and has only a couple of years left at being the leagues best QB? It's not like Brady's best skills are all of the physical nature which could deteriorate; what sets Brady apart from others is between his ears. The retire early bit sounds more like wishful thinking on your part!

 

As for the draft, I showed that the Pats have drafted more all pro players than any other team during the last decade; the timeframe that BB has been at the helm as the teams GM. Others pointed out that Pioli and Dimitroff are the guys who should take credit for many of these players ..... I ask why and then suggest that BB is still having productive draft classes without the aid of either Pioli or Dimitorff, pointing out the '10 draft class, which many people believe may well end up being the best of BB's Patriots tenure.

 

Not sure how any objective person could disagree with any of what I am saying ...........

Edited April 29, 2012 by Pneumonic

[MattM]

On the Brady front .... not sure why you'd feel he's wearing out and has only a couple of years left at being the leagues best QB? It's not like Brady's best skills are all of the physical nature which could deteriorate; what sets Brady apart from others is between his ears. The retire early bit sounds more like wishful thinking on your part!

 

As for the draft, I showed that the Pats have drafted more all pro players than any other team during the last decade; the timeframe that BB has been at the helm as the teams GM. Others pointed out that Pioli and Dimitroff are the guys who should take credit for many of these players ..... I ask why and then suggest that BB is still having productive draft classes without the aid of either Pioli or Dimitorff, pointing out the '10 draft class, which many people believe may well end up being the best of BB's Patriots tenure.

 

Not sure how any objective person could disagree with any of what I am saying ...........

 

 

Because you cherry pick your one data point that supports your argument (hitting on a few players in one draft class), while ignoring the horrible drafts that surround it, as others have pointed out. What do you think about the Ebner pick in the 6th round this year? The guy had played 3 snaps all season, was on no one's radar at all, yet has a draft pick wasted on him. I say wasted, because NE could have easily signed him to an UDFA deal, as no one else probably even knew who he was, much less have any interest in him. Sometimes in trying to show how smart he is, Belicheat* fools even himself, kind of like that 4th and inches at Indy a couple of years ago....

[Pneumonic]

Because you cherry pick your one data point that supports your argument (hitting on a few players in one draft class), while ignoring the horrible drafts that surround it, as others have pointed out. What do you think about the Ebner pick in the 6th round this year? The guy had played 3 snaps all season, was on no one's radar at all, yet has a draft pick wasted on him. I say wasted, because NE could have easily signed him to an UDFA deal, as no one else probably even knew who he was, much less have any interest in him. Sometimes in trying to show how smart he is, Belicheat* fools even himself, kind of like that 4th and inches at Indy a couple of years ago....

All teams miss out with horrible picks (BB is no different) but all pros are all pros. Not sure what's so complicated to understand here.

 

I have no idea how Ebner will work out. I'm sure he was drafted for his special teams upside. He sure seems the part! Maybe BB saw some Steve Tasker, also a former Rugby guy IIRC, in him? Often times guys drafted this late by BB are done so as to ensure he doesn't have to compete with other teams in the UDFA market.

[BuffaloBrad]

Here's a list of HOF QBs with their age at their last SB appearance:

 

Marino, 23

Namath, 25

Farve, 27

Griese, 28

Aikman, 29

Bradshaw, 31

Kelly, 33

Young, 33

Montana, 33

Starr, 34

Staubach, 36

Unitas, 37

Elway, 38

 

This says that most HOF QBs don't do much after their early 30s. The guys who did make it to the SB in the latter part of their career were mostly on teams with a lot of talent. With the Pats defense in the state it's in, I'd say the odds are against them.

Edited April 30, 2012 by BuffaloBrad

[Pneumonic]

Here's a list of HOF QBs with their age at their last SB appearance:

 

Marino, 23

Namath, 25

Farve, 27

Griese, 28

Aikman, 29

Bradshaw, 31

Kelly, 33

Young, 33

Montana, 33

Starr, 34

Staubach, 36

Unitas, 37

Elway, 38

 

This says that most HOF QBs don't do much after their early 30s. The guys who did make it to the SB in the latter part of their career were mostly on teams with a lot of talent. With the Pats defense in the state it's in, I'd say the odds are against them.

So, Brady has several more years before he's doomed.

 

BTW, last year the Pats D was top 15 in the only stat that counts ...... points allowed. Not too bad of a state to be in (Jets were worse BTW and only two teams were worse than the Bills). The Pats D will be better in scoring defense this year. And, chances are the offense will get even better ....

[SpecialK15]

Why I think the Bills had a better draft than the Pats. Though I like Jones, biggest question mark for him is injury. The Bills as a team took good value, durable players and I think the Pats reached too much for some players. As Buddy said, the Bills picked up players that had solid bodies of work. Hightower is a solid pickup as a player but I have no clue how he fits into that defense. Did they address the CB position? Not really. When looking at draft class as a whole, there really isn't a pick that jumped out or made me think we better watch out for him. Thank god we got good depth players, especially OL and LB.

[John from Riverside]

You keep rationalizing reasons to explain why the Pats personnel moves have been bad yet the team was still good enough to be 1 play away from last years SB and have been good to win 10+ games every year dating back a decade.

 

At some point you would think that maybe, just maybe, you'd realize that whoever is the "real guy" running that team's personnel, has a pretty good idea of what they are doing

 

 

Is anyone gonna step in here and point out to this pats fan that this "super bowl defense" was absolutely horrible and without Brady and company would be picking top 10? The patriots did NOT get to the super bowl because of their defense....they got there because their offense is great...particularly their QB

 

When your core of a team is special...it overcomes a lot of issues.

 

So, Brady has several more years before he's doomed.

 

BTW, last year the Pats D was top 15 in the only stat that counts ...... points allowed. Not too bad of a state to be in (Jets were worse BTW and only two teams were worse than the Bills). The Pats D will be better in scoring defense this year. And, chances are the offense will get even better ....

 

 

how many teams are there in the league? Top 15? LOL

 

 

"the pats D will be better in scoring defense this year" GTFO you dont know that

 

"offense will be even better" you dont know that either

 

Your takes are weak

[RealityCheck]

The Pats have won 10+ game each season for the last decade ..... they are ALWAYS in win now mode!!!!!!!!!!

What about February?

[Pneumonic]

Is anyone gonna step in here and point out to this pats fan that this "super bowl defense" was absolutely horrible and without Brady and company would be picking top 10? The patriots did NOT get to the super bowl because of their defense....they got there because their offense is great...particularly their QB

 

When your core of a team is special...it overcomes a lot of issues.

 

 

 

 

how many teams are there in the league? Top 15? LOL

 

 

"the pats D will be better in scoring defense this year" GTFO you dont know that

 

"offense will be even better" you dont know that either

 

Your takes are weak

The Pats scoring D got progressively better as the year went on and the young kids gained more experience. It's not a stretch to believe the young starters get better as they play another year in the Pats complicated system. Should the rooks contribute, even better.

 

As for the Pats offense, just bringing back Josh McDaniels as the play caller is a monumental improvement. As for the players .... the young pups (Gronk, Hernandez, Ridley, Vareen, Solder, and Vollmer) have yet to hit their prime and will improve. Meanwhile Brady is Brady and Welker is Welker. Further, I expect Brandon Lloyd to be a monumental upgrade as the Pats #2 wideout.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Pneumonic

[Dorkington]

The Pats are, unfortunately, the favorite to win the AFCE, if not the entire AFC. They haven't gotten any worse than last year from what I can tell, and if their young guys improve AND their draft choices pan out, they'll be even better.

 

I just hope the Bills can keep up with them.

[Pneumonic]

Hightower is a solid pickup as a player but I have no clue how he fits into that defense. Did they address the CB position? Not really.

What Hightower brings to the Pats is versatility to line-up all over the place in order to cause confusion. He can play all LB spots in either the 3-4 or 4-3 and he can stick his hand down and play RDE in the 4-3. That's paramount in the Pats defense which is a chameleon week in and week out, game in and game out, down in and down out.

 

The other thing is ...... Hightower already knows the Pats defense as he's played in it @ Bama for the last 4 seasons. He should be able to step right in and contribute at a high level.

 

Pats get Dowling back which will solidify the 1-2-3 CB spots. Biggest ? still is the 2nd safety spot. Hopefully the combo of Gregory and Wilson solve that issue.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Pneumonic

[UpperDeck]

The Pats are, unfortunately, the favorite to win the AFCE, if not the entire AFC. They haven't gotten any worse than last year from what I can tell, and if their young guys improve AND their draft choices pan out, they'll be even better.

 

I just hope the Bills can keep up with catch up to them.

 

Corrected

[Pneumonic]

The Pats are, unfortunately, the favorite to win the AFCE, if not the entire AFC. They haven't gotten any worse than last year from what I can tell, and if their young guys improve AND their draft choices pan out, they'll be even better.

 

I just hope the Bills can keep up with them.

That'll be up to Fitz.

[Mike in Syracuse]

The Patriots continue to ignore the hidden key to their success, the offensive line. Brady is an amazing QB, due in part to fact that they've had tackles like Matt Light who give Brady 8 seconds to throw the ball. Matt Light just retired, Logan Mankins is having ACL surgery and will miss camp and potentially the opener. They'll likely move Soldner over to Light's spot and I don't know if he's every played LT.

 

The Patriots demise will be due to their OL not being able to keep Brady upright.

[mjt328]

Prior to the draft, Chandler Jones was a late riser who had moved up to consideration as a borderline first/second round pick.

Donte Hightower was considered a late first round pick.

 

The Patriots had two first round picks, so getting both guys was just about what should be expected.

But of course, since it was Belicheck drafting them - Jones all of a sudden became the best DE prospect in the draft and Hightower became the top LB prospect in the draft. That is the way people in the sports media see it.

 

 

In contrast, Stephon Gilmore was generally considered a Top 10/Mid First Round Pick. Cordy Glenn was considered a mid first round pick.

Both of Buffalo's top draft choices were rated HIGHER than New England's. So who gets the better draft grade?

Edited April 30, 2012 by mjt328

[All_Pro_Bills]

Prior to the draft, Chandler Jones was a late riser who had moved up to consideration as a borderline first/second round pick.

Donte Hightower was considered a late first round pick.

 

The Patriots had two first round picks, so getting both guys was just about what should be expected.

But of course, since it was Belicheck drafting them - Jones all of a sudden became the best DE prospect in the draft and Hightower became the top LB prospect in the draft. That is the way people in the sports media see it.

 

 

In contrast, Stephon Gilmore was generally considered a Top 10/Mid First Round Pick. Cordy Glenn was considered a mid first round pick.

Both of Buffalo's top draft choices were rated HIGHER than New England's. So who gets the better draft grade?

+1

 

It's all about opinion and prediction right now until these guys take the field as pro's.

 

NE picks a safety with the 48th overall pick that nobody had on their charts and the pundits say they must 'know something'. If the Bills did that they'd be 'reaching'.

 

My view is that with the pick-ups in free agency and the draft the Bills have closed the talent gap on NE but there's still a gap. The place I see NE having a significant advantage is at the QB and TE positions but that's about it.

 

The talent gap is small enough now that the possibility the Bills 'could' beat NE each and every time they play is not some far-fetched Bills fan dream but rather a reality.