Now Greg Williams is a cheater?

[San Jose Bills Fan]

If I were to distill my opinion to it's simplest:

 

If the bounties were for legal hits, I have no problem.

 

If the bounties were for illegal hits, I have a problem.

[Mr. WEO]

If I were to distill my opinion to it's simplest:

 

If the bounties were for legal hits, I have no problem.

 

If the bounties were for illegal hits, I have a problem.

Do you think Greggg made taht distinction? What if he simply put a bounty on "hurting" (we all know what this means) a guy?

[Zulu Cthulhu]

See, I totally disagree with you on this.

 

I think the issue is how were the bounties actually expressed, spelled-out, defined.

 

Were the bounties for hard hits or illegal hits?

 

THAT, IMO is the issue here… one btw that is not really being explored by the media.

 

 

I see that point, and I think once the investigation proceeds further, an answer to your question will come to light.

 

But what we know now is that players were aware they'd be compensated for "big" hits and hits that resulted in injury. I think the quotes from Coy Wire alone establish that. And I don't think it's a big stretch to assume that compensation would create an incentive in some players' minds to throw a cheap shot or two if the opportunity arose. Not all players, mind you - I'd still like to think there's guys in the league that would refuse to injure a fellow player regardless of the award. But enough would be motivated to do so, otherwise the NFL would have no motivation to enact a rule against it. Since Williams is already an admitted violator of that rule, the only remaining issue I'm interested in is the level of punishment for him and the teams he coached.

[NoSaint]

Do you think Greggg made taht distinction? What if he simply put a bounty on "hurting" (we all know what this means) a guy?

 

And that's a tough spot but I've seen no evidence of dirty hits, fines being paid, or loyalty to guys based on this. So at this point it looks like you might be making a jump.

 

I see that point, and I think once the investigation proceeds further, an answer to your question will come to light.

 

But what we know now is that players were aware they'd be compensated for "big" hits and hits that resulted in injury. I think the quotes from Coy Wire alone establish that. And I don't think it's a big stretch to assume that compensation would create an incentive in some players' minds to throw a cheap shot or two if the opportunity arose. Not all players, mind you - I'd still like to think there's guys in the league that would refuse to injure a fellow player regardless of the award. But enough would be motivated to do so, otherwise the NFL would have no motivation to enact a rule against it. Since Williams is already an admitted violator of that rule, the only remaining issue I'm interested in is the level of punishment for him and the teams he coached.

 

 

Well, the fines would be ten fold the reward, unless it comes out those were paid too

[Marv's Neighbor]

If you consider the results while he was with the BILLS, he must be innocent! Who would be stupid enough to cheat AND lose too?

[JimBob2232]

I dont know what to make of this. When this first came out, I thought New Orleans was going to get hit HARD. But now that this is not just New Orleans, but involves many teams...I dont think the NFL can do much. You just cant penalize Buffalo (not saying this because I am a Buffalo guy), because NOBODY is still around who knew anything about this.

 

Also, have to keep in mind, while all this was going on (in Buffalo and before), the NFL and ESPN were glorifying these HUGE hits. JACKED-UP was on every episode of sportscenter. No wonder why players were hitting hard, and a "bounty" system existed. The NFL is partly to blame here, which makes it hard to dole out punishment.

 

Lastly, its critical to understand if the "bounty" system was for hurting players, or if the "bounty" system was for sacks, tackles, fumble recoveries, etc. While neither may be more legal than the other, there is a critical difference.

 

We'll see what comes out of this. I would be happy with Making Greggo an example with a lifetime ban, maybe even suspending Sean Peyton for a year, and making damn sure this behavior is not tolerated. But to punish organizations for past behavior which nobody left had anything to do with...I think i'd pass if I was the commish.

[Mr. WEO]

And that's a tough spot but I've seen no evidence of dirty hits, fines being paid, or loyalty to guys based on this. So at this point it looks like you might be making a jump.

 

 

 

 

Well, the fines would be ten fold the reward, unless it comes out those were paid too

I don't think it's a jump. See Beerball's links and quotes. The incentive is to take a guy out. To do so would require an intentional infliction of injury. You don't have to pay a guy an extra few bucks to sack Bret Favre. But you could clearly see they were assualting Favre in that NFCC game. That costs extra. Greggg paid the fee.

[NoSaint]

I dont know what to make of this. When this first came out, I thought New Orleans was going to get hit HARD. But now that this is not just New Orleans, but involves many teams...I dont think the NFL can do much. You just cant penalize Buffalo (not saying this because I am a Buffalo guy), because NOBODY is still around who knew anything about this.

 

Also, have to keep in mind, while all this was going on (in Buffalo and before), the NFL and ESPN were glorifying these HUGE hits. JACKED-UP was on every episode of sportscenter. No wonder why players were hitting hard, and a "bounty" system existed. The NFL is partly to blame here, which makes it hard to dole out punishment.

 

Lastly, its critical to understand if the "bounty" system was for hurting players, or if the "bounty" system was for sacks, tackles, fumble recoveries, etc. While neither may be more legal than the other, there is a critical difference.

 

We'll see what comes out of this. I would be happy with Making Greggo an example with a lifetime ban, maybe even suspending Sean Peyton for a year, and making damn sure this behavior is not tolerated. But to punish organizations for past behavior which nobody left had anything to do with...I think i'd pass if I was the commish.

 

Well, you know, unless Russ Brandon, littman, overdorf, or Ralph etc.... knew it happened...

[Jim in Anchorage]

If you consider the results while he was with the BILLS, he must be innocent! Who would be stupid enough to cheat AND lose too?

Bills player-"Pay up coach! My hit took a player out of the game!" Coach-"It was your OWN player, idiot."

[Marv Levy]

He was one of the worst coaches the Bills ever had. He made terrible decisions during games. Didn't he call for a punt one time instead of kicking a FG when the Bills were on the opponents 40? Something like that? HORRIBLE!!

 

I hated his friggin' a$s!!

[bbb]

Tim Graham ‏ @ByTimGraham

 

Great point by @BobLeyESPN ... If players want to poo-poo bounties as no big deal, then how can they sue NFL for being too violent?

[NoSaint]

I'm still curious abou the 18k documents totaling 50k pages

 

That's like 350 documents averaging 3 pages per game.

 

That's like 6 documents and 18 pages per snap.

 

It's a strangely huge number.

[CosmicBills]

Two things the public should never see being made: Laws and Sausages.

[DanInUticaTampa]

I'm still curious abou the 18k documents totaling 50k pages

 

That's like 350 documents averaging 3 pages per game.

 

That's like 6 documents and 18 pages per snap.

 

It's a strangely huge number.

 

It is bizarre.

[Sniper]

Buddy Nixon report this 24 hours before, and got acknowledgment from Tim Graham about researching the issue.

 

[DreReed83]

I know you guys are DYING to hear my opinion on this because I'm ALWAYS right.

 

First of all, Gregg Williams is a disgrace to humanity. Yes, football is a violent sport but to play to injure someone is plain stupid. And for people who believe that this is OK is just plain ignorant as well. To tell you the truth, I read some people saying there's nothing wrong with this? I'd have to say you guys are a disgrace to humanity as well (u know who u r). The point of football is to make a hard, solid hit, not a hit that results in an injury. Looking back at some of those hits, against Peyton (when Williams was coaching the Skins D), and Favre, those were DIRTY hits. They're CLEARLY hits intending to injure those QBs. I hate Favre as much as everyone but that was a cheapshot that knocked them out of the game.

 

As for punishment, Gregg Williams should be banned from the game for a year and the Saints should lose their 2nd and 3rd round picks. In addition, Loomis should be FIRED immediately and Payton should be suspended half the season and fined as well. As for the players, they should each get a fine and a 1 game suspension each.

[marauderswr80]

I dont have any issue with this system as long as its within the legal perameters of the game! Example...player with the most sacks wins money or players with an int or fumble gets money. Now if the defender had a personal foul he had to put more in the pot.

 

But when your out head hunting and trying to hurt someone, IMHO thats attemted assault! The hell with fines the hell with draft picks being taken away, trying to hury a man who may have a wife and kids is sickening and should be removed from the game!!

 

Makes even more sick knowing it happen with our Bills. That goes against every moral of what western ny stands for . Gregg williams should be kicked out of football.

[DrDawkinstein]

Then you are IMO totally irrational, or you don't have the ability to extrapolate. Kill shot, knock a player out of a game, take him out...can't get much clearer than that. Players were paid (more) to injure a player and knock them out of the game.

 

You've boxed yourself into a corner IMO and rather that bow out gracefully you've decided to cling to an unbelievable argument.

 

Irrational and boxed into a corner?!? You either cant read, or are just too bored to not argue.

 

I am not the one jumping to 3rd hand conclusions from information that is being reported from someone else, from a report that NO ONE has read through. I am not one of the posters here with an agenda against Williams because he is a former coach.

 

YOU GUYS are the ones having a big circle jerk that our "hated ex-coach" is in trouble. God forbid that it's no big deal, or else we wont be able to bash the guy.

 

Really boxed into a corner with these replies...

 

as long as it was clean, and i have never seen the Saints play dirty, then it's whatever.

i get that it's against the rules. and i get why the NFL has to have a rule against it. but i would bet this happens on almost every team in some form.

 

 

Now, Im not advocating leading with the crown, or twisting a player's leg. But the team that physically dominates and imposes it's will, wins. The point is to win. Therefore, I want my team in a mindset to destroy the other guys.

 

If this was really a big deal, there would be players from other teams speaking out about how dirty the Saints are. But outside of that beating they (rightfully) put on Favre, I havent seen them accused of cheap-shotting guys.

 

 

There's a difference between "hurt" and "injured" that I believe is being blurred here. I honestly dont believe that any Saints player wanted to seriously injure a fellow player. However, you can hurt them so they cant perform as well. And you can do so, while playing completely within the rules.

 

It's the attitude that good defenses have.

 

 

If this was causing players to cheap shot guys and injure them, then why arent the Saints getting fined and suspended on a regular basis like Suh and Harrison? The Saints dont even lead in personal fouls.

 

And yes you do try to hurt people, just not injure them. There is a difference, and players know and talk about it.

 

Again, I really think this is blown out of proportion, and didnt change the way the players played in any way.

 

 

And Im not just saying "It's ok since everyone does it".

 

My point is, if these "bounty systems" were truly changing the way the game was played, they would have been exposed much earlier. And the teams using them (almost all 32) would have a lot more personal fouls.

 

These systems have been around for years, yet we see the game become less and less violent every year. So obviously the systems were more for show, and bragging, than for actually causing players to be cheap.

 

 

If more information is made public, and we find out there was a list that read along the lines of:

 

Blown Knee: $1000

Concussion: $1000

Twisted Ankle: $500

etc

 

then by all means, the Saints deserve to be punished severely.

 

However, if we find that it was vaguely named "big hit"/"had to leave field"/"knock out of game", then I stand by my post that it's no big deal.

 

Defense is about hitting. It's like paying offensive players for scoring, or gaining certain amounts of yards, or even big blocks. All the defense does is hit, and try to create turnovers. Hitting will obviously be rewarded.

 

The key point to all of this is finding out how dirty they were encouraged to be. Again, the Saints have not been known as a dirty team. Certainly not like the Steelers or Lions. So how much could this have been influencing anything?

 

 

That's an opinion. You could just as easily argue that they immediately apologized and owned up to it because they know it doesnt have a lot of steam. If this is as dirty as you guys want it to be, then there will be lawyers involved, and no one would be admitting to anything.

 

The fact that they came right out and said "Yep, it was stupid and we're sorry", could be because it was the same type of bounty system almost every team uses, and it really doesn't effect the game much.

 

Again, we dont have enough info either way, and you are guessing just like me. Im just waiting to find out the facts before I get all worked up.

 

 

First off, this isnt what is being argued in this thread.

 

If you want my opinion on proper form tackling, and how dangerous this stupid trend of being a human-missile is, please take a few moments to see my previous posts here:

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/139853-james-harrison-speaks-his-mind/page__view__findpost__p__2335915

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/139853-james-harrison-speaks-his-mind/page__view__findpost__p__2336381

http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/139853-james-harrison-speaks-his-mind/page__view__findpost__p__2336793

 

You're preaching to the choir on that stuff, brother.

 

But back to the subject at hand. If the Saints were being coached to hit in such a manner, then where are the fines? Where are the penalties? Where is the rep of being a dirty, head-hunting team? Or even the rep of being a good, physical defense?

 

Im not trying to defend Williams specifically, as it most likely could have been a number of DCs that ended up in trouble for this. I just dont think the players were being coached to seriously injure. If that comes out, then shame on them, and they deserve what they get.

[NoSaint]

I dont have any issue with this system as long as its within the legal perameters of the game! Example...player with the most sacks wins money or players with an int or fumble gets money. Now if the defender had a personal foul he had to put more in the pot.

 

But when your out head hunting and trying to hurt someone, IMHO thats attemted assault! The hell with fines the hell with draft picks being taken away, trying to hury a man who may have a wife and kids is sickening and should be removed from the game!!

 

Makes even more sick knowing it happen with our Bills. That goes against every moral of what western ny stands for . Gregg williams should be kicked out of football.

 

Where's the call to head hunt?

 

I know you guys are DYING to hear my opinion on this because I'm ALWAYS right.

 

First of all, Gregg Williams is a disgrace to humanity. Yes, football is a violent sport but to play to injure someone is plain stupid. And for people who believe that this is OK is just plain ignorant as well. To tell you the truth, I read some people saying there's nothing wrong with this? I'd have to say you guys are a disgrace to humanity as well (u know who u r). The point of football is to make a hard, solid hit, not a hit that results in an injury. Looking back at some of those hits, against Peyton (when Williams was coaching the Skins D), and Favre, those were DIRTY hits. They're CLEARLY hits intending to injure those QBs. I hate Favre as much as everyone but that was a cheapshot that knocked them out of the game.

 

As for punishment, Gregg Williams should be banned from the game for a year and the Saints should lose their 2nd and 3rd round picks. In addition, Loomis should be FIRED immediately and Payton should be suspended half the season and fined as well. As for the players, they should each get a fine and a 1 game suspension each.

 

You mean when moats knocked him out? He finished the saints game, and in fact threw an interception late to lose the game for the Vikings.

Edited March 4, 2012 by NoSaint

[bbb]

Chris Mortensen ‏ @mortreport

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NFL Security is recalling Gregg Williams to NYC for more Bounty-gate talk Monday.