Defend Greece Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I'm not gonna rank them right now but I was totally fine with our O-line entering the season and posted as much. I posted some variation of this numerous times: "Wood and Bell couldn't do any strength training last year as they recovered from their injuries AND both players were given Wednesdays off from practice to simply rest their injuries, AND the Bills O-line was one of the youngest in the league, AND the O-line is just entering their 2nd year in the system." But we were shouted down by "the realists." Many if not most of "the realists" couldn't concede these very simple and credible points. Rather than rank them, I'm encouraging people to brainstorm to see what lines can actually claim to be as good or better than the Bills. Based on reputation, there are two teams (Cheating Bastards***, Jets). Based on performance, 1 or 2 other teams (Raiders, Lions) can make the argument that they're as good as the Bills O-line. No one else if offering suggestions so I guess that indicates that the Bills are at worst, Top 5. People can try to deny this but if they can't name teams, their opinions are meaningless (IMO). Top 5 good enough I don't think there is that dominant line out there now. I guess you have to start with Oakland, Detroit, and buffalo right now. !@#$ the patriots and their 2 step drop dump off in the flats all day long and run for yac offense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) No, stats do not tell the whole tale, but you asserting that the o-line's success is entirely attributable to the offensive scheme is just as narrow minded. Do you watch the games? Yes, Fitz gets rid of the ball quickly, and that is by design. If you look closely, however, you would notice that Fitz COULD have much more time to sit in the pocket if he really needed to. Opposing defensive lines have barely even got close enough to get a sniff of Fitz (besides some hits after the ball has been released). Also, have you noticed the improvement our offensive line has made in the run blocking department? I know you don't want to draw "obvious conclusions" but there are stats to support this as well. BTW...there is a way to argue your point without chiding other posters, and rudely asking them if they are 12 years old. Grow up. Its sure as heck isn't by design, that O line sucked moose dangle with Edwards and Brohm behind center. That is pure Ryan Fitzscreamy getting rid of the ball to the open receiver in 3 seconds or under, pure Fitz! I pointed out many times last year that it only took 3.5 seconds for Fitz to hit Stevie Johnson in the end zone against the Steelers on that deep pass, you know the TD pass he dropped .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGJWBWcFD_4 watch it and count. Fred Jackson is entirely the reason why the running game looks so darn good, he usually breaks the first few tackles, never lets himself be arm tackled and should be a pro bowler this season, along with Fitz! Both those players I'd put in the "elite" category, and lord help the Bills if either get a serious injury. The Bills O line improved quite a bit just by moving Wood to center, but still some of those players on the bills line wouldn't even make some other teams rosters, don't believe me? Then where did some of them come from. I'm not dissing them, just saying its the QB and RB that are making that line look much better then it really is. Edited October 1, 2011 by Fear the Beard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defend Greece Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Its sure as heck isn't by design, that O line sucked moose dangle with Edwards and Brohm behind center. That is pure Ryan Fitzscreamy getting rid of the ball to the open receiver in 3 seconds or under, pure Fitz! I pointed out many times last year that it only took 3.5 seconds for Fitz to hit Stevie Johnson in the end zone against the Steelers on that deep pass, you know the TD pass he dropped .. youtube.com/watch?v=nGJWBWcFD_4 watch it and count. Fred Jackson is entirely the reason why the running game looks so darn good, he usually breaks the first few tackles, never lets himself be arm tackled and should be a pro bowler this season, along with Fitz! Both those players I'd put in the "elite" category, and lord help the Bills if either get a serious injury. The Bills O line improved quite a bit just by moving Wood to center, but still some of those players on the bills line wouldn't even make some other teams rosters, don't believe me? Then where did some of them come from. I'm not dissing them, just saying its the QB and RB that are making that line look much better then it really is. Well I agree about fitz getting rid of the ball quick and Freddie is amazing But Levitre is playing insane out of his mind right now Wood is also playing really well.The other 5 have also done well And sanborn is the best long snapper in the league!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Ryan Fitzscreamy ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o1mrVBATd4&feature=related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoretalk Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 What he said. The Bills have one of the best (if not the best) Red Zone conversion rates in the league. It takes a strong OL to accomplish that. To the naysayers, I join the chorus asking you to name a couple of lines that are clearly better than the Bills' OL. And, don't say it's just three games or use last year's line play as your defense. If you don't think we are one of the 3 or best OL's in 2011 then state who is ... be bold rather than just choosing to be the half-empty glass person who can't ever support the team you claim you are a fan of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mousetrap08 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) There is so much praise going to Fitzy and Steve and Jackson and they deserve it but Fitzy is the least sacked QB in the League! he has been sacked 1 time in three games with throwing 111 times. The next closest is Jason Campbell with 2 sacks and he has only thrown 82 passes. even Brady has been sacked 3 times. Teams also knew that we were going to be passing in two of the games because of the amount we were trailing by. I don't know if they are the best in the league. I do know that I have a lot of respect for the way they have played so far and give them full credit for the teams success. Edited October 1, 2011 by shadowcat10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 The Bills O line improved quite a bit just by moving Wood to center, but still some of those players on the bills line wouldn't even make some other teams rosters, don't believe me? Then where did some of them come from? I'm not dissing them, just saying its the QB and RB that are making that line look much better then it really is. Your reasoning is faulty for at least two reasons. Firstly, offensive lines are a unit and on good units, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. There have been plenty of good offensive lines built with average talent. The greatest value that is placed on O-linemen is intelligence (by position, they typically score the highest on the wonderlic after quarterbacks) and toughness. If you have tough, smart players and a good O-line coach, you can have a good O-line. Secondly, by the very fact that teams draft 7 players but sign about twice that many undrafted free agents each year, undrafted free agents (like Eric Pears) are found on virtually every offensive line in the NFL. Typically these guys take a few years to develop. Tyson Clabo played for 5 teams and was in his 7th NFL season before he made the Pro Bowl as an alternate. Our own Chad Rinehart was cut by a new regime in DC 8 months after suffering a severe broken leg. He had the proverbial cup of coffee with the Jets practice squad before we picked him up. There are lots of low-drafted and "journeymen" type players who kept improving until they were members of great offensive lines. As I've posted before: "The New York Giants for several years had the best offensive line in football. During their 2007 Super Bowl season and a few seasons on either side of 2007, they were widely considered the best offensive line in the NFL. Starting LT David Diehl was a 5th round pick. LG Rich Seubert and C Shaun O'Hara were undrafted. RG Chris Snee was a 2nd rounder and RT Kareem McKenzie was a 3rd rounder. Not exactly investing heavily in the offensive line. The infamous Hogs O-line of the early 80s consisted of LT George Starke, an 11th rounder, LG Russ Grimm, a 3rd rounder, C Jeff Bostic who was undrafted, RG Mark May, a 1st rounder, and RT Joe Jacoby who was also undrafted. They were the best offensive line of the first half of the 1980s. The offensive line on the most recent Super Bowl edition of the Cheatriots* consisted of LT Matt Light, a 2nd rounder, LG JoeAndruzzi, who was undrafted, C Dan Koppen, a 5th rounder, RG Russ Hochstein, a 5th rounder, and RT Tom Ashworth, who was undrafted. That's 1 first rounder and 2 second rounders, and 1 third rounder for a total of 4 players taken in the first three rounds. Those same lines featured 6 undrafted starters. I could go on and on. In recent memory there have been many excellent offensive lines which consisted of mid-round picks and undrafted free agents. The Bills have had numerous outstanding O-linemen without any pedigree. Kent Hull was undrafted. John Davis was an 11th rounder. Tim Vogler was a undrafted. House Ballard was an 11th rounder, Donnie Green was a 5th rounder. O-line is one of the hardest positions to scout for and also one of the positional groups where guys who are tough and smart and are well-coached can develop into good players and an even better unit." Point being, just because a player doesn't have a pedigree and/or was released by another team doesn't mean that he is a bad player… which was your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defend Greece Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Your reasoning is faulty for at least two reasons. Firstly, offensive lines are a unit and on good units, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. There have been plenty of good offensive lines built with average talent. The greatest value that is placed on O-linemen is intelligence (by position, they typically score the highest on the wonderlic after quarterbacks) and toughness. If you have tough, smart players and a good O-line coach, you can have a good O-line. Secondly, by the very fact that teams draft 7 players but sign about twice that many undrafted free agents each year, undrafted free agents (like Eric Pears) are found on virtually every offensive line in the NFL. Typically these guys take a few years to develop. Tyson Clabo played for 5 teams and was in his 7th NFL season before he made the Pro Bowl as an alternate. Our own Chad Rinehart was cut by a new regime in DC 8 months after suffering a severe broken leg. He had the proverbial cup of coffee with the Jets practice squad before we picked him up. There are lots of low-drafted and "journeymen" type players who kept improving until they were members of great offensive lines. As I've posted before: "The New York Giants for several years had the best offensive line in football. During their 2007 Super Bowl season and a few seasons on either side of 2007, they were widely considered the best offensive line in the NFL. Starting LT David Diehl was a 5th round pick. LG Rich Seubert and C Shaun O'Hara were undrafted. RG Chris Snee was a 2nd rounder and RT Kareem McKenzie was a 3rd rounder. Not exactly investing heavily in the offensive line. The infamous Hogs O-line of the early 80s consisted of LT George Starke, an 11th rounder, LG Russ Grimm, a 3rd rounder, C Jeff Bostic who was undrafted, RG Mark May, a 1st rounder, and RT Joe Jacoby who was also undrafted. They were the best offensive line of the first half of the 1980s. The offensive line on the most recent Super Bowl edition of the Cheatriots* consisted of LT Matt Light, a 2nd rounder, LG JoeAndruzzi, who was undrafted, C Dan Koppen, a 5th rounder, RG Russ Hochstein, a 5th rounder, and RT Tom Ashworth, who was undrafted. That's 1 first rounder and 2 second rounders, and 1 third rounder for a total of 4 players taken in the first three rounds. Those same lines featured 6 undrafted starters. I could go on and on. In recent memory there have been many excellent offensive lines which consisted of mid-round picks and undrafted free agents. The Bills have had numerous outstanding O-linemen without any pedigree. Kent Hull was undrafted. John Davis was an 11th rounder. Tim Vogler was a undrafted. House Ballard was an 11th rounder, Donnie Green was a 5th rounder. O-line is one of the hardest positions to scout for and also one of the positional groups where guys who are tough and smart and are well-coached can develop into good players and an even better unit." Point being, just because a player doesn't have a pedigree and/or was released by another team doesn't mean that he is a bad player… which was your point. Anybody got the number for espn? This guy should have claytons job Good shut bud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Too much time on my hands, D. Gotta work tomorrow so just enjoying my Friday night hanging with "youse guys." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Your reasoning is faulty for at least two reasons. Firstly, offensive lines are a unit and on good units, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. There have been plenty of good offensive lines built with average talent. The greatest value that is placed on O-linemen is intelligence (by position, they typically score the highest on the wonderlic after quarterbacks) and toughness. If you have tough, smart players and a good O-line coach, you can have a good O-line. Secondly, by the very fact that teams draft 7 players but sign about twice that many undrafted free agents each year, undrafted free agents (like Eric Pears) are found on virtually every offensive line in the NFL. Typically these guys take a few years to develop. Tyson Clabo played for 5 teams and was in his 7th NFL season before he made the Pro Bowl as an alternate. Our own Chad Rinehart was cut by a new regime in DC 8 months after suffering a severe broken leg. He had the proverbial cup of coffee with the Jets practice squad before we picked him up. There are lots of low-drafted and "journeymen" type players who kept improving until they were members of great offensive lines. As I've posted before: "The New York Giants for several years had the best offensive line in football. During their 2007 Super Bowl season and a few seasons on either side of 2007, they were widely considered the best offensive line in the NFL. Starting LT David Diehl was a 5th round pick. LG Rich Seubert and C Shaun O'Hara were undrafted. RG Chris Snee was a 2nd rounder and RT Kareem McKenzie was a 3rd rounder. Not exactly investing heavily in the offensive line. The infamous Hogs O-line of the early 80s consisted of LT George Starke, an 11th rounder, LG Russ Grimm, a 3rd rounder, C Jeff Bostic who was undrafted, RG Mark May, a 1st rounder, and RT Joe Jacoby who was also undrafted. They were the best offensive line of the first half of the 1980s. The offensive line on the most recent Super Bowl edition of the Cheatriots* consisted of LT Matt Light, a 2nd rounder, LG JoeAndruzzi, who was undrafted, C Dan Koppen, a 5th rounder, RG Russ Hochstein, a 5th rounder, and RT Tom Ashworth, who was undrafted. That's 1 first rounder and 2 second rounders, and 1 third rounder for a total of 4 players taken in the first three rounds. Those same lines featured 6 undrafted starters. I could go on and on. In recent memory there have been many excellent offensive lines which consisted of mid-round picks and undrafted free agents. The Bills have had numerous outstanding O-linemen without any pedigree. Kent Hull was undrafted. John Davis was an 11th rounder. Tim Vogler was a undrafted. House Ballard was an 11th rounder, Donnie Green was a 5th rounder. O-line is one of the hardest positions to scout for and also one of the positional groups where guys who are tough and smart and are well-coached can develop into good players and an even better unit." Point being, just because a player doesn't have a pedigree and/or was released by another team doesn't mean that he is a bad player… which was your point. San Jose Bills Fan, this is a good response. You presented compelling facts to back up your argument. I learned something reading this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defend Greece Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 San Jose Bills Fan, this is a good response. You presented compelling facts to back up your argument. I learned something reading this. Dudes good, he should start a blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) Best offensive line in history was the Cowboys of the early/mid-90's. T Erik Williams, 3rd Rd T Mark Tuinei, UDFA C Mark Stepnoski, 3rd Rd G Nate Newton, UDFA G Kevin Gogan, 8th Rd All but Newton got their NFL start with Dallas Edited October 1, 2011 by Joe_the_6_pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 The o-line has played well for all 3 games this season in both run blocking and pass protection. And honestly I think Fitz is a big reason why they have done well in pass protection is because of Fitz but what has impressed me most about the O-line has been the ground game because that isn't so much a product of Fitz (Although having a passing game helps it) but rather a product of good o-line play. This O-line was suppose to be a mess and yet either due a combination good play, good scheme, and good QB play they have looked good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 (edited) Your reasoning is faulty for at least two reasons. Firstly, offensive lines are a unit and on good units, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. There have been plenty of good offensive lines built with average talent. The greatest value that is placed on O-linemen is intelligence (by position, they typically score the highest on the wonderlic after quarterbacks) and toughness. If you have tough, smart players and a good O-line coach, you can have a good O-line. Secondly, by the very fact that teams draft 7 players but sign about twice that many undrafted free agents each year, undrafted free agents (like Eric Pears) are found on virtually every offensive line in the NFL. Typically these guys take a few years to develop. Tyson Clabo played for 5 teams and was in his 7th NFL season before he made the Pro Bowl as an alternate. Our own Chad Rinehart was cut by a new regime in DC 8 months after suffering a severe broken leg. He had the proverbial cup of coffee with the Jets practice squad before we picked him up. There are lots of low-drafted and "journeymen" type players who kept improving until they were members of great offensive lines. As I've posted before: "The New York Giants for several years had the best offensive line in football. During their 2007 Super Bowl season and a few seasons on either side of 2007, they were widely considered the best offensive line in the NFL. Starting LT David Diehl was a 5th round pick. LG Rich Seubert and C Shaun O'Hara were undrafted. RG Chris Snee was a 2nd rounder and RT Kareem McKenzie was a 3rd rounder. Not exactly investing heavily in the offensive line. The infamous Hogs O-line of the early 80s consisted of LT George Starke, an 11th rounder, LG Russ Grimm, a 3rd rounder, C Jeff Bostic who was undrafted, RG Mark May, a 1st rounder, and RT Joe Jacoby who was also undrafted. They were the best offensive line of the first half of the 1980s. The offensive line on the most recent Super Bowl edition of the Cheatriots* consisted of LT Matt Light, a 2nd rounder, LG JoeAndruzzi, who was undrafted, C Dan Koppen, a 5th rounder, RG Russ Hochstein, a 5th rounder, and RT Tom Ashworth, who was undrafted. That's 1 first rounder and 2 second rounders, and 1 third rounder for a total of 4 players taken in the first three rounds. Those same lines featured 6 undrafted starters. I could go on and on. In recent memory there have been many excellent offensive lines which consisted of mid-round picks and undrafted free agents. The Bills have had numerous outstanding O-linemen without any pedigree. Kent Hull was undrafted. John Davis was an 11th rounder. Tim Vogler was a undrafted. House Ballard was an 11th rounder, Donnie Green was a 5th rounder. O-line is one of the hardest positions to scout for and also one of the positional groups where guys who are tough and smart and are well-coached can develop into good players and an even better unit." Point being, just because a player doesn't have a pedigree and/or was released by another team doesn't mean that he is a bad player… which was your point. As I've stated many times, The current line has yet to face a top defense or even a bad one with a top pass rush. I watched these same basic guys get manhandled by the Jets-Vikings-Patriots in the latter part of last season. So I'm not entirely convinced they are the best at what they do just yet, and Ive stated such in other posts in this thread. Now granted this coaching staff has already greatly exceeded my expectations in regards to player discipline, few penalties, few dropped passes and well executed offensive plays, along with some good run blocking and pass blocking. But are they playing up to the level of a team like Green Bay or New Orleans? No, not yet, so I'd have say they are not the best O line in the league. Just by watching what this coaching staff has been able to do with TE Scott Chandler has shown me they are far better then I gave them credit for being. So who knows, perhaps this staff can further develop this O line into the best in the NFL. The team should get better the longer they play together with continuity. Like I stated earlier the Bills face much tougher teams ahead with better defenses. So why not just wait another few weeks and ask this question again. BTW, Kent Hull played 3 years in the USFL and was named to the USFL and Sporting News all league teams. He was on the New Jersey Generals and opened holes for Hershel Walker and Maurice Carthon. Bill Polian knew what he was getting when he signed Hull so it wasn't like he was an unknown scrub walk on free agent or a cast off waiver wire reject from another team. You also forgot to mention 2 other players that anchored that great Bills line of the late 80's and early 90's -LG Jim Richter a 1st round pick by Chuck Knox in 1980 & LT Will Wolford another 1st round pick in 1986. All 3 of those Bills players had careers in the NFL for more then 10 years. (Richter 16 years in the NFL) (Kent Hull 11 years in the NFL & 3 years in the USFL) (Wilford 13 years in the NFL) Edited October 1, 2011 by Fear the Beard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandemonium Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 As I've stated many times, The current line has yet to face a top defense or even a bad one with a top pass rush. I disagree. The Chiefs have Tamba Hali, who led the AFC in sacks last year. The Raiders have 10 sacks so far this year, but had none against the Bills. The Raiders have a defensive line that is regarded as one of the best in the league, and the fact that they didn't get a single sack against the Bills but are averaging 5 per game against other teams speaks volumes about how well our offensive line has played thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Does anyone really think this line could give Fitz 4-5 seconds to stand back there and go through progressions and be comfortable in the pocket? Seriously? This line has been awesome in three games. There have been no blown assignments, jailbreaks or penalties. It cannot be under estimated. The biggest surprise in the three games has been the OL. They have been way better than anyone, other than themselves and the Bills offense, could have expected. They are the main reason that Fitz can do what he does. It's never because one guy is great. There has never been a great passer with a terrible line. But.. That doesn't mean they are great. Most teams and Qbs that get a lot of time get 3-4 or 4-5 second to throw. Brady did against the Bills last week. Sometimes he had 5-7 seconds to throw. Fitz has 2 sometimes 3. He throws immediately. He never just sits back and looks around the defense like Brady does. But that's what make Fitz so good, and so valuable. He can read the defense and make the decision and make the throw quickly as good as anyone. I don't think fans give Fitz enough credit. I very much doubt that Drew Brees, one of the top 4-5 Qbs in the entire league, would be better on the Bills than Fitz is on the Bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWesternBill Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Hey, I know you guys are busy talking about our O-line and everything, but may I induce a short intermission for the purpose of showing my weekly schedule? It's so easy, even a child could understand! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSBill Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 So far, I would say its hard to argue against it . . . the results and numbers tell it all: "Buffalo Bills: The leaders in pass blocking efficiency as a team this year so far are the Bills with a mark of 95.3. Their offensive line has just allowed 12 total QB Disruptions on 197 plays." source link And, personally I thought they had potential based on what we saw from last year, I think the continued growth of Bell, moving Wood to center, the Pears revelation, have been the biggest factors (directly related to he line itself). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Syracuse Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Impossible, Jerry Sullivan said this team was devoid of talent. That opinion was confirmed with an small army of "rollercoasters" who apparently were former OL or OL coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 There is so much praise going to Fitzy and Steve and Jackson and they deserve it but Fitzy is the least sacked QB in the League! he has been sacked 1 time in three games with throwing 111 times. The next closest is Jason Campbell with 2 sacks and he has only thrown 82 passes. even Brady has been sacked 3 times. Teams also knew that we were going to be passing in two of the games because of the amount we were trailing by. So far they've "sonned" some pretty good DLmen If they keep Fitzy clean tomorrow, they will be building a strong case for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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