Debunking the 34 is the problem myth

[Thoner7]

We all know Chan came out and said he wants to run the 34 when he took over. But the staff also said they would use mutilpe fronts bepending on personnel.

 

Well, through 4 games, the Bills have very very very rarely been in a 3 man front. I dont have exact numbers like my Troupe myth, but I would estimate that the Bills have been in a 34 alignment no more than 15% of the defensive snaps. Honestly, Maybin hasnt played a single down as a LB. Every snap he has his hand in the dirt along with 3 other lineman.

 

People are mad and I understand that. But I get tired of callers on wgr calling in claiming the 34 has been a huge mistake (I havent read too many posts on here about it, but there have been a few). We dont even run that defense enough to consider it a problem.

 

Please pay more attention to the details people!!!

 

Carry on.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Thoner7

[WordByrd]

Good points. I feel like they should have just stuck with the 4-3 title. It's all they run anyway

[Arkady Renko]

Whatever defense it is, it has Kelsay covering a TE.

[BillyBaroo]

Whatever defense it is, it has Kelsay covering a TE.

And he is always 3/4 of a second too late on everything

[Sisyphean Bills]

Whatever defense it is, it has Kelsay covering a TE.

I don't think giving a TE a little shove and then letting him wander by himself through the secondary is really what most coaches mean when they say "coverage". But, one never knows, I guess.

[DanInSouthBuffalo]

They're running whatever they can. I think if they ran a true 3-4 all the time with the personnel they currently have, they would get beat even worse.

[NaPolian8693]

If you think the Bills are in a 3-4 less than 15% of the time on defense, I'm not sure that you are correctly identifying the 3-4.

 

You can have four down pass rushers in a 3-4. You can also have five, as shown here:

 

http://football.calsci.com/images/3-4.png

[Zulu Cthulhu]

I hate to admit it, but napolian is probably right. The Bills "34" at this point is a 34 in name only. Even teams that run a true 34, e.g. Pitt, have their lbs in the the 3point sometimes. The bills have basically renamed DEs like Kelsay LBs and have them doing a lot of their same 43 responsibilities.

[crazyDingo]

I thought the Bills called it the 3-4 because thats about how many rushing yards they give up each play...I guess it sounds better than the 7-8.

[Thurman#1]

We all know Chan came out and said he wants to run the 34 when he took over. But the staff also said they would use mutilpe fronts bepending on personnel.

 

Well, through 4 games, the Bills have very very very rarely been in a 3 man front. I dont have exact numbers like my Troupe myth, but I would estimate that the Bills have been in a 34 alignment no more than 15% of the defensive snaps. Honestly, Maybin hasnt played a single down as a LB. Every snap he has his hand in the dirt along with 3 other lineman.

 

People are mad and I understand that. But I get tired of callers on wgr calling in claiming the 34 has been a huge mistake (I havent read too many posts on here about it, but there have been a few). We dont even run that defense enough to consider it a problem.

 

Please pay more attention to the details people!!!

 

Carry on.

 

 

And yet we drafted for the 3 - 4, not the 4 - 3. And we practiced most of the preseason for the 3 - 4. We cut and players and signed others to maximize our ability to run the 3 - 4. And yet Kelsay's playing standing up, playing an LB role a lot.

 

And you seriously don't think that had a huge impact on our season?

 

We're rebuilding. We don't care all that much about this season, but discovering that after all that that we really couldn't run the 3 - 4 at even a basic level and we'd have to cheat back to the 4 -3 on many plays hurt us bad this year. Luckily, our goal, the goal of all rebuilding teams, isn't winning now, it's winning three years from now.

 

But yeah, the 3 - 4 has hurt us. Nothing wrong with that, though, unless it's still hurting us in 2012.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Thurman#1

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I thought the Bills called it the 3-4 because thats about how many rushing yards they give up each play...I guess it sounds better than the 7-8.

 

Oh, this is funny.

 

"Did you hear the Bills renamed the 3-4 defense? They call it the 7-8 now"

"No, why did they do that?"

"That's how many YPC they give up"

[K Gun Special]

If you think the Bills are in a 3-4 less than 15% of the time on defense, I'm not sure that you are correctly identifying the 3-4.

 

You can have four down pass rushers in a 3-4. You can also have five, as shown here:

 

http://football.calsci.com/images/3-4.png

 

 

that only shows 3 down lineman on Defense

 

and whether or not the player is in a 3 point stance wouldnt change your evaluation from an offensive standpoint.

 

The bills have been running a lot of 4 man fronts, particularly bc they are pretty awful at LB and stronger on DL

Edited October 8, 2010 by K Gun Special

[Thoner7]

If you think the Bills are in a 3-4 less than 15% of the time on defense, I'm not sure that you are correctly identifying the 3-4.

 

You can have four down pass rushers in a 3-4. You can also have five, as shown here:

 

http://football.calsci.com/images/3-4.png

 

No, I am. Im no idiot. I know they can stack the LBs. Or even play on over/under that would look like a 4-3. But they dont. They rarely run the 3-4.

 

Sorry

[NaPolian8693]

Here are some highlights from the Jets game:

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d81b07091/Jets-vs-Bills-highlights

 

By my count, these highlights show the Bills on defense on seven plays (eleven total plays shown). Of these seven defensive snaps, the Bills were in a 3-4 on four of them, in a Goal Line package on two, and one in some other formation variant (majority in 3-4).

 

In non goal line situations they were in 3-4 four out of five snaps.

 

I deleted the game from my Tivo already and don't really care to rewatch that game anyways, but they were definitely running 3-4 more than 15% of the time.

[Cash]

We all know Chan came out and said he wants to run the 34 when he took over. But the staff also said they would use mutilpe fronts bepending on personnel.

 

Well, through 4 games, the Bills have very very very rarely been in a 3 man front. I dont have exact numbers like my Troupe myth, but I would estimate that the Bills have been in a 34 alignment no more than 15% of the defensive snaps. Honestly, Maybin hasnt played a single down as a LB. Every snap he has his hand in the dirt along with 3 other lineman.

 

People are mad and I understand that. But I get tired of callers on wgr calling in claiming the 34 has been a huge mistake (I havent read too many posts on here about it, but there have been a few). We dont even run that defense enough to consider it a problem.

 

Please pay more attention to the details people!!!

 

Carry on.

 

I think the fact that they've run so little 3-4 is an indictment of it. The coaches clearly don't trust their base personnel except in obvious run situations. We spent most of the Patriots game in what was officially considered a nickel, but was really a dime with Bryan Scott (the 6th DB) playing LB. If we had linebackers with any speed whatsoever, the 3-4 should be very effective against the pass against base personnel.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Here are some highlights from the Jets game:

 

http://www.nfl.com/v...ills-highlights

 

By my count, these highlights show the Bills on defense on seven plays (eleven total plays shown). Of these seven defensive snaps, the Bills were in a 3-4 on four of them, in a Goal Line package on two, and one in some other formation variant (majority in 3-4).

 

In non goal line situations they were in 3-4 four out of five snaps.

 

I deleted the game from my Tivo already and don't really care to rewatch that game anyways, but they were definitely running 3-4 more than 15% of the time.

 

 

I have to agree. Not sure what OP sees, but I there are not too many 4-3 play calls scenarios that has a DE (Kelsay) dropping in pass coverage on a TE or RB. I am assuming when he drops, which is frequent and noticeable as the ball is thrown to his guy, he is wearing the OLB hat.

 

 

[SouthGeorgiaBillsFan]

I think the fact that they've run so little 3-4 is an indictment of it. The coaches clearly don't trust their base personnel except in obvious run situations. We spent most of the Patriots game in what was officially considered a nickel, but was really a dime with Bryan Scott (the 6th DB) playing LB. If we had linebackers with any speed whatsoever, the 3-4 should be very effective against the pass against base personnel.

 

It would be effective against a pass with no more than 2 WRs. More than 2 wideouts and you start to see mismatch problems with linebackers trying to cover speedy WRs. This generally should be mitigated to some extent with blitzing and creating a confusing pass rush, but when you can't get any pressure on the QB, you are asking to get burned. Even with a solid pass rush, a good QB will be able to exploit the mismatches and holes in the zones created by blitzing backers. Thus, the 3-4 is a better base defense against the pass happy NFL than the 4-3 with proper personnel and execution, but it is by no means a defense that can be relied upon exclusively to shut down a prominent passing attack. You must have nickel and dime packages ready to deploy when needed, regardless of what your base defense is.

[akm0404]

FYI - You can't just count players on the line of scrimmage at the snap to determine what base formation they are in. Do a little google searching for some details as to what constitutes a 3-4 defense if it isn't clear. It can be a bit tricky to identify, as your linebackers can rush from the line and still be in a 3-4 alignment.

[K Gun Special]

FYI - You can't just count players on the line of scrimmage at the snap to determine what base formation they are in. Do a little google searching for some details as to what constitutes a 3-4 defense if it isn't clear. It can be a bit tricky to identify, as your linebackers can rush from the line and still be in a 3-4 alignment.

 

yes bc a lot of the time the OLBs are on the line anway. it really depends on the personnel and alignment and not just how many guys have their hands down.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

We all know Chan came out and said he wants to run the 34 when he took over. But the staff also said they would use mutilpe fronts bepending on personnel.

 

Well, through 4 games, the Bills have very very very rarely been in a 3 man front. I dont have exact numbers like my Troupe myth, but I would estimate that the Bills have been in a 34 alignment no more than 15% of the defensive snaps. Honestly, Maybin hasnt played a single down as a LB. Every snap he has his hand in the dirt along with 3 other lineman.

 

People are mad and I understand that. But I get tired of callers on wgr calling in claiming the 34 has been a huge mistake (I havent read too many posts on here about it, but there have been a few). We dont even run that defense enough to consider it a problem.

 

Please pay more attention to the details people!!!

 

Carry on.

 

Good post. The 3/4 is the way to go and I was more than pissed when we got rid of it when Greg Williams took over claiming that his D was number one and ours was three but he failed to remember the year before we were #1. Anyway we don't have the horses for that D right know and the coaches are doing what they can to win. That being said they need to stick the guys in there that they drafted for the 3/4 and let them get some experience so they can see who can play the 3/4 and then draft the right guys next year to fill the needs. How do we no if Carrington and Troupe can play if they are never on the field. I think Troupe and Kyle are too small for nose and should be switched to end we should have done all we could to get Casey Hampton in here or NT with size like 350 or better. This small NT is BS and the will will never work in the 3/4 and don't give that crap about Dallas and Miami using small NTs because they don't have dominant Ds. All the great 3/4 team have big monster NTs and ends like the Ravens, Jets, Pats, Packers, Steelers.