Why Rebuilding Has Taken a Decade +

[Arkady Renko]

In the NFL, a team should be able to go from bad to mediocre or mediocre to good in just a season. Yet outside the 2001 to 2002 improvement, the Bills have never made such a leap that other teams have done time and time again. It is not just bad drafting or bad coaching. It is creating new holes unnecessarily. Almost every offseason the Bills dig themselves a new hole. Instead of focusing on addressing their existing weaknesses, they do something that creates a new weakness.

 

1. There was blowing up the 3rd ranked 3-4 defense and implementing an entirely new scheme (the 46).

2. There was trading away McGahee and letting Spikes and Fletcher go only to have to spend the first two draft picks in 2007 on a running back and a LB.

3. There was blowing up a mediocre offensive line only to create a league-worst OL.

4. There is forcing a switch to the 3-4 when the defense merely needed some reinforcements for run defense.

 

These are just a few examples. I am sure others can come up with more.

 

Instead, why didn't the Bills just keep the players they had and the schemes they had and just looked for how they could add depth and competition. Anytime there is any progress, there is this strange desire to blow something new up. I wonder if the Bills had just held tight and sought steady improvement each year that we might have a solid team today.

Edited October 5, 2010 by johnnyb

[NavarreFL_Bills_Fan]

In the NFL, a team should be able to go from bad to mediocre or mediocre to good in just a season. Yet outside the 2001 to 2002 improvement, the Bills have never made such a leap that other teams have done time and time again. It is not just bad drafting or bad coaching. It is creating new holes unnecessarily. Almost every offseason the Bills dig themselves a new hole. Instead of focusing on addressing their existing weaknesses, they do something that creates a new weakness.

 

1. There was blowing up the 3rd ranked 3-4 defense and implementing an entirely new scheme (the 46).

2. There was trading away McGahee and letting Spikes and Fletcher go only to have to spend the first two draft picks in 2007 on a running back and a LB.

3. There was blowing up a mediocre offensive line only to create a league-worst OL.

4. There is forcing a switch to the 3-4 when the defense merely needed some reinforcements for run defense.

 

These are just a few examples. I am sure others can come up with more.

 

Instead, why didn't the Bills just keep the players they had and the schemes they had and just looked for how they could add depth and competition. Anytime there is any progress, there is this strange desire to blow something new up. I wonder if the Bills had just held tight and sought steady improvement each year that we might have a solid team today.

 

 

They have no long term plan. Every year we hear about how they like the guys they picked up in FA or the draft they just had....while everyone else is left scratching their heads at the silly decisions they see the Bill's FO playing out. We've had 10 yrs of JP Losman-type decisions, hence the drought.

[DUFF]

Good Post!! i honestly never looked at it that way...just assumed it was 10 years of bad drafting and a revolving door of qbs and coaches.

nice observation! Hopefully Gailey can show just enough progress each year that we don't drive him

out of town after 3 years. There is no quick fix to this mess. unfortunately it took over 10 years to fffff it all up, it

won't be fixed in a year or two. So how do you feel about others on this board suggesting to trade evans and lynch???

is it time to start over or does this create new unnecessary holes???

[Sisyphean Bills]

It would be nice for once to get rid of the Matt Millen approach to team building. The Bills have spent a good portion of high resources on RBs, KRs, WRs, and DBs over the past decade all while letting the OL and defensive front fall apart. It looks so terrible now because Gailey wants a team that will control the line of scrimmage and he doesn't have the players.

 

It should be mentioned that they have wasted a lot of picks on DL as well. Maybin, Ellis, McCargo, Anderson, Kelsay, Denney, Flowers, Moore... the only top 100 pick on DL that amounted to more than a backup quality player was Schobel. Whoever scouts DL for this team should be fired posthaste.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Sisyphean Bills

[BTIZZLE]

I agree. The Cardinals, Seahawks, Jags, Panthers, Bucs, Bengals, and the Saints all have rebounded. These teams kept key players and/or coaches. They drafted well with their high picks. Even the Chiefs and Texans are looking good these days.

 

The Bills have had a new coaching staff and roster every 2-4 years. No consistent culture. They have also let so many free agents go. I understand you can't keep everyone. But it is amazing to see how many successful players started in Buffalo. And most of them are not over-paid. They are earning what they deserve.

 

I am not sure Chan is the right coach, but I do believe if he is, let him build his team. Letting him stay for 3 years and canning him because the Bills miss the playoffs (Mularkey, Williams, Jaroun) will do little good. A head coach has to be trusted to stay for the long haul. Look at Fisher, Del Rio, Belicheat, ect...... Just think of how many different coaches and QB's the Belichick lead Pats have faced. That is terrible. Question is................

 

Do you trust Chan?

[DanInSouthBuffalo]

They did it with DB's too. Draft Antoine Winfield and then two years later draft Clements. They refuse to play Winfield and he leaves via free-agency and then Clements gets the mega-deal and leaves several years after that. That sets them up to have to draft McKelvin. All the while they don't spend quality picks on linemen who could spend a decade at the position easily.

[bbb]

1. There was blowing up the 3rd ranked 3-4 defense and implementing an entirely new scheme (the 46).

 

 

This one really p'd me off. Looking back on the mess it made ever since makes it all the worse.......NOBODY used to be able to run on us with Ted or Pat in the middle of that 3-4........So, Gregg comes in and wants to do 4-3. I was like OK, we'll be like the Ravens with Sam Adams and Siragusa, plugging the middle. But, they then get rid of Ted.

 

How the eff does a mere fan know more than these experts?

[BillsVet]

Rebuilding can begin when the team establishes a workable management structure that excludes Overdorf and Littman from football decisions. Sadly, that will never happen. Until then, it's likely that there is interference in all personnel transactions.

 

But yes, they've compounded the challenges of rebuilding by inexplicably ridding themselves of players while keeping bad ones.

[....lybob]

This one really p'd me off. Looking back on the mess it made ever since makes it all the worse.......NOBODY used to be able to run on us with Ted or Pat in the middle of that 3-4........So, Gregg comes in and wants to do 4-3. I was like OK, we'll be like the Ravens with Sam Adams and Siragusa, plugging the middle. But, they then get rid of Ted.

 

How the eff does a mere fan know more than these experts?

awful move but it's one of many - you don't take Ngata when you have the chance? didn't anyone ever explain the planet theory to these guys " The famous “Planet Theory” — originated by the late great N.Y. Giants executive George Young and popularized by Parcells — states that there are a finite number of athletic 300+-pounders on Earth. And when a team has a chance to draft one, it should."

[Arkady Renko]

They did it with DB's too. Draft Antoine Winfield and then two years later draft Clements. They refuse to play Winfield and he leaves via free-agency and then Clements gets the mega-deal and leaves several years after that. That sets them up to have to draft McKelvin. All the while they don't spend quality picks on linemen who could spend a decade at the position easily.

 

Didn't they cut their safeties and replace them with rookies in 2007?

[Wiz]

The most frustrating thing is their moves have been bad moves and not just moves that turned out bad. Every one of the following moves were awful the moment they were made:

 

using a mid-first round pick for McGahee,

trading back into the first for lightly regarded Losman,

letting Pat Williams go,

drafting Whitner at #8,

trading up for McCargo,

drafting Maybin #11 over Orakpo,

Kelsay's first extension,

Kelsay's second extension,

consistently overpaying underperforming FA's

and on and on.

[Typical TBD Guy]

This is a great thread, johnnyb.

 

When NFL free agency began, CB Nate Odomes was one of our very first free agent casualties. Since then, we've been perpetually burning first round draft picks to replace our top CB's for whom we refuse to pay market value: Jeff Burris, Thomas Smith, Antoine Winfield, Nate Clements, and now Leodis McKelvin.

 

Similar problem at another skill position, RB, which began when we tried to replace the aging Thurman Thomas: Antowain Smith, Travis Henry, Willis McGahee, Marshawn Lynch, and now CJ Spiller.

 

We've been arguing the pros and cons for each of these personnel decisions since this message board's inception, but the fact remains that very high draft picks have been used disproportionately on the skill positions like RB, WR, CB, and S at the expense of the OL and DL.

 

And for the most important skill position of QB, we've been using a lot of precious draft resources to replace Jim Kelly: Todd Collins, Rob Johnson, Drew Bledsoe, JP Losman, and most recently Trent Edwards. I realize that these QB busts have been, in large part, due to poor scouting and such. Nevertheless, one wonders how the Buffalo careers of some of these guys might have been different had the Bills invested more 1st and 2nd round draft picks on quality OL players. Confidence is, after all, one of the most important factors in a young QB's development. It's hard to get in a productive habit of reading pro defenses and making accurate throws when running for your life 1 second after the snap.

 

Just something to think about when next offseason rolls around...

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

This is a great thread, johnnyb.

 

When NFL free agency began, CB Nate Odomes was one of our very first free agent casualties. Since then, we've been perpetually burning first round draft picks to replace our top CB's for whom we refuse to pay market value: Jeff Burris, Thomas Smith, Antoine Winfield, Nate Clements, and now Leodis McKelvin.

 

Similar problem at another skill position, RB, which began when we tried to replace the aging Thurman Thomas: Antowain Smith, Travis Henry, Willis McGahee, Marshawn Lynch, and now CJ Spiller.

 

We've been arguing the pros and cons for each of these personnel decisions since this message board's inception, but the fact remains that very high draft picks have been used disproportionately on the skill positions like RB, WR, CB, and S at the expense of the OL and DL.

 

And for the most important skill position of QB, we've been using a lot of precious draft resources to replace Jim Kelly: Todd Collins, Rob Johnson, Drew Bledsoe, JP Losman, and most recently Trent Edwards. I realize that these QB busts have been, in large part, due to poor scouting and such. Nevertheless, one wonders how the Buffalo careers of some of these guys might have been different had the Bills invested more 1st and 2nd round draft picks on quality OL players. Confidence is, after all, one of the most important factors in a young QB's development. It's hard to get in a productive habit of reading pro defenses and making accurate throws when running for your life 1 second after the snap.

 

Just something to think about when next offseason rolls around...

 

WR, DB or RB with #1 Pick by the Bills. Take it to the bank, this is the WORST franchise in all of professional sports. Not the Pirates. Not the Clippers. Not the Coyotes. The Bills are the worst-run, most pestilential club in all of American sports.

[BringBackFergy]

This is a great thread, johnnyb.

 

When NFL free agency began, CB Nate Odomes was one of our very first free agent casualties. Since then, we've been perpetually burning first round draft picks to replace our top CB's for whom we refuse to pay market value: Jeff Burris, Thomas Smith, Antoine Winfield, Nate Clements, and now Leodis McKelvin.

 

Similar problem at another skill position, RB, which began when we tried to replace the aging Thurman Thomas: Antowain Smith, Travis Henry, Willis McGahee, Marshawn Lynch, and now CJ Spiller.

 

We've been arguing the pros and cons for each of these personnel decisions since this message board's inception, but the fact remains that very high draft picks have been used disproportionately on the skill positions like RB, WR, CB, and S at the expense of the OL and DL.

 

And for the most important skill position of QB, we've been using a lot of precious draft resources to replace Jim Kelly: Todd Collins, Rob Johnson, Drew Bledsoe, JP Losman, and most recently Trent Edwards. I realize that these QB busts have been, in large part, due to poor scouting and such. Nevertheless, one wonders how the Buffalo careers of some of these guys might have been different had the Bills invested more 1st and 2nd round draft picks on quality OL players. Confidence is, after all, one of the most important factors in a young QB's development. It's hard to get in a productive habit of reading pro defenses and making accurate throws when running for your life 1 second after the snap.

 

Just something to think about when next offseason rolls around...

 

Well said...

[Original Byrd Man]

In the NFL, a team should be able to go from bad to mediocre or mediocre to good in just a season. Yet outside the 2001 to 2002 improvement, the Bills have never made such a leap that other teams have done time and time again. It is not just bad drafting or bad coaching. It is creating new holes unnecessarily. Almost every offseason the Bills dig themselves a new hole. Instead of focusing on addressing their existing weaknesses, they do something that creates a new weakness.

 

1. There was blowing up the 3rd ranked 3-4 defense and implementing an entirely new scheme (the 46).

2. There was trading away McGahee and letting Spikes and Fletcher go only to have to spend the first two draft picks in 2007 on a running back and a LB.

3. There was blowing up a mediocre offensive line only to create a league-worst OL.

4. There is forcing a switch to the 3-4 when the defense merely needed some reinforcements for run defense.

 

These are just a few examples. I am sure others can come up with more.

 

Instead, why didn't the Bills just keep the players they had and the schemes they had and just looked for how they could add depth and competition. Anytime there is any progress, there is this strange desire to blow something new up. I wonder if the Bills had just held tight and sought steady improvement each year that we might have a solid team today.

The root of the problem is the constant change of Coach and GM. Each ego believes his way is the best way, and he is replacing someone who must have been wrong or he would still have his job. their is no continuity, no master plan for the long haul as it never last that long.

[Endless Ike]

 

 

1. There was blowing up the 3rd ranked 3-4 defense and implementing an entirely new scheme (the 46).

 

I don't think anyone is playing the old bear 46 in the NFL anymore...its way to easy to pass on since it requires a five man front and basically presumes that your CBs are good enough to play one on one.

[apuszczalowski]

I agree. The Cardinals, Seahawks, Jags, Panthers, Bucs, Bengals, and the Saints all have rebounded. These teams kept key players and/or coaches. They drafted well with their high picks. Even the Chiefs and Texans are looking good these days.

 

The Bills have had a new coaching staff and roster every 2-4 years. No consistent culture. They have also let so many free agents go. I understand you can't keep everyone. But it is amazing to see how many successful players started in Buffalo. And most of them are not over-paid. They are earning what they deserve.

 

I am not sure Chan is the right coach, but I do believe if he is, let him build his team. Letting him stay for 3 years and canning him because the Bills miss the playoffs (Mularkey, Williams, Jaroun) will do little good. A head coach has to be trusted to stay for the long haul. Look at Fisher, Del Rio, Belicheat, ect...... Just think of how many different coaches and QB's the Belichick lead Pats have faced. That is terrible. Question is................

 

Do you trust Chan?

Cards, Seahawks, Jags, and Bengals are all 2-2 (Bucs 2-1)

Panthers and one of the pics for a playoff contender, the 49ers, both 0-4 along with Detroit

Texans have spent how long building their team? How long has it been since the Chiefs were a playoff caliber team?

 

Almost all of those teams, including the 1-3 Raiders and Browns have all spent plenty of high picks and plenty of years drafting top 5/top 10 trying to rebuild and haven't found continuous success.

 

Its not easy to build an NFL team, unless of course your an armchair GM with the gift of Hindsight

 

The root of the problem is the constant change of Coach and GM. Each ego believes his way is the best way, and he is replacing someone who must have been wrong or he would still have his job. their is no continuity, no master plan for the long haul as it never last that long.

Its not always because of Ego, some coaches or GM's just have their own systems that they are more familiar with and better at then others. Even some of the best coaches and GM's could fail if they were forced to use a system they weren't familiar with. The problem is that fans want quick turn arounds and unless you have an unlimited budget, thats not always easy to do. Sometimes Luck can play a huge part in it, like being in the position to get to draft a Peyton Manning, or finding a Tom Brady late in the draft

[TheChimp]

Not trying to be argumentative with ANY of the above posts, because they all make sense to me, but in my mind, none of those things change the simple fact that it's all about our owner and his decision to hire cheaply at all levels, therefore getting the gobs of bad drafting and bad coaching that we have grown so fond of. Face it, he has never cared about winning enough to spend for it, and it was only when Bill Polian came through here and did things without consulting with Ralph that we had success at drafting and coaching and the proof was in the pudding. Then Ralph fired him for not wanting to take orders from Ralph's stupid daughter. End of non-puppet coaches and welcome back to the Draft Room Mr. Wilson. Welcome back horrible football and a wealthy owner who wished the team was in Miami anyway.

[Geno Smith's Arm]

They are still looking for a QB. That's the most important player, and they haven't been able to fill that hole (no, I don't need to hear about getting an O-line first or "defense wins championships").

 

Many teams struggle after their franchise QB leaves, it's just that the Bill keep making the wrong choices concerning QB's (and plenty of other areas as well obviously). Some of the Bills teams in the past 10 years were good enough to make the playoffs if they had a top shelf QB at the time. The Bills haven't found one, and it has a huge effect on the psyche of the team. Really, aside from the Kelly years, this franchise has been nowhere, and it's not a coincidence that he is the only top shelf QB that they have had (Please don't interject with "Joe Ferguson!", I grew up watching him play. Not top shelf.)

[apuszczalowski]

They are still looking for a QB. That's the most important player, and they haven't been able to fill that hole (no, I don't need to hear about getting an O-line first or "defense wins championships").

 

Many teams struggle after their franchise QB leaves, it's just that the Bill keep making the wrong choices concerning QB's (and plenty of other areas as well obviously). Some of the Bills teams in the past 10 years were good enough to make the playoffs if they had a top shelf QB at the time. The Bills haven't found one, and it has a huge effect on the psyche of the team. Really, aside from the Kelly years, this franchise has been nowhere, and it's not a coincidence that he is the only top shelf QB that they have had (Please don't interject with "Joe Ferguson!", I grew up watching him play. Not top shelf.)

But its not like the Bills are the only team looking for a "franchise QB", they don't grow on trees, and plenty of teams have gone through the process many times without success.

 

Look at Clevland, Tampa, Oakland, Miami (is Henne really the answer? Safe to say they have been searching since Marino), Minneosota (Favre is only a stop gap, he won't be around much longer), Detroit (how much more of a beating can Stafford take?) San Fransico, Washington (How many years does McNabb have left?) Jacksonville......

 

All of those teams have either spent many years searching for a "franchise QB" and still continue to look, or have found a decent stop gap, but not a future QB

[flopagamo]

They are still looking for a QB. That's the most important player, and they haven't been able to fill that hole (no, I don't need to hear about getting an O-line first or "defense wins championships").

 

Many teams struggle after their franchise QB leaves, it's just that the Bill keep making the wrong choices concerning QB's (and plenty of other areas as well obviously). Some of the Bills teams in the past 10 years were good enough to make the playoffs if they had a top shelf QB at the time. The Bills haven't found one, and it has a huge effect on the psyche of the team. Really, aside from the Kelly years, this franchise has been nowhere, and it's not a coincidence that he is the only top shelf QB that they have had (Please don't interject with "Joe Ferguson!", I grew up watching him play. Not top shelf.)

I was going to argue at first, but then I went here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_champions

 

The teams that won the Super Bowl without a 'top shelf' QB, over the past 20 years:

1990 Giants (superior defense)

1991 Redskins (with Mark Rypien, who was rarely touched by a defender that whole year)

2000 Ravens (superior defense)

2002 Bucs (superior defense)

 

And this includes calling Eli Manning a top shelf QB, which might be a stretch. So yeah, that's 16 of the last 20 Super Bowls won with a big time QB. It is a rare championship team that has it's heart-and-soul leader in a position other than QB.

[evilbuffalobob]

I don't disagree, but holding tight could mean that DJ would still be coach.

[Thurman#1]

Why Rebuilding Has Taken a Decade

 

In the NFL, a team should be able to go from bad to mediocre or mediocre to good in just a season. Yet outside the 2001 to 2002 improvement, the Bills have never made such a leap that other teams have done time and time again. It is not just bad drafting or bad coaching. It is creating new holes unnecessarily. Almost every offseason the Bills dig themselves a new hole. Instead of focusing on addressing their existing weaknesses, they do something that creates a new weakness.

 

1. There was blowing up the 3rd ranked 3-4 defense and implementing an entirely new scheme (the 46).

2. There was trading away McGahee and letting Spikes and Fletcher go only to have to spend the first two draft picks in 2007 on a running back and a LB.

3. There was blowing up a mediocre offensive line only to create a league-worst OL.

4. There is forcing a switch to the 3-4 when the defense merely needed some reinforcements for run defense.

 

These are just a few examples. I am sure others can come up with more.

 

Instead, why didn't the Bills just keep the players they had and the schemes they had and just looked for how they could add depth and competition. Anytime there is any progress, there is this strange desire to blow something new up. I wonder if the Bills had just held tight and sought steady improvement each year that we might have a solid team today.

 

 

Your whole premise is flawed. We haven't been rebuilding for a decade. During that decade, we twice made the decision to rebuild. Only twice. The Donahoe years started with a rebuild which proved to be unsuccessful. After that, we never totally blew things up and started from scratch. Which is the reason we were mediocre all those year.

 

The second rebuild started this year. In about three years, we will see how successful it is.

 

Why didn't we keep the players we had and just add depth and competition? Maybe because we didn't have a QB, an OL, more than one WR, a TE, anyone to rush the passer outside of the now-retired Schobel or a powerful interior defense? Just a guess but that seems the reason to me. Because we didn't have a core of good players to build around. Granted, we have a hell of a punter, but that's not enough to rebuild around.

 

They are still looking for a QB. That's the most important player, and they haven't been able to fill that hole (no, I don't need to hear about getting an O-line first or "defense wins championships").

 

Many teams struggle after their franchise QB leaves, it's just that the Bill keep making the wrong choices concerning QB's (and plenty of other areas as well obviously). Some of the Bills teams in the past 10 years were good enough to make the playoffs if they had a top shelf QB at the time. The Bills haven't found one, and it has a huge effect on the psyche of the team. Really, aside from the Kelly years, this franchise has been nowhere, and it's not a coincidence that he is the only top shelf QB that they have had (Please don't interject with "Joe Ferguson!", I grew up watching him play. Not top shelf.)

 

 

Joe Ferguson was absolutely good enough. I grew up watching him too. Our offense was sensational and while OJ was the main reason, Ferguson was absolutely a franchise QB. The reason that team never went anywhere was that we never had a great defense. Kemp, Ferguson and Kelly. That's it. Flutie if we had gotten him a few years earlier before his arm went. Lamonica if we'd kept him.

[Geno Smith's Arm]

I was going to argue at first, but then I went here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_champions

 

The teams that won the Super Bowl without a 'top shelf' QB, over the past 20 years:

1990 Giants (superior defense)

1991 Redskins (with Mark Rypien, who was rarely touched by a defender that whole year)

2000 Ravens (superior defense)

2002 Bucs (superior defense)

 

And this includes calling Eli Manning a top shelf QB, which might be a stretch. So yeah, that's 16 of the last 20 Super Bowls won with a big time QB. It is a rare championship team that has it's heart-and-soul leader in a position other than QB.

 

I don't even believe it's a fair measure to say that they have to win a Super Bowl to be a top shelf QB. Off the top of my head I would set the bar at say a playoff win in 3 separate seasons (career-wise). There might have been a joker or two that has managed that, but I think a QB had to have been pretty good to manage that. I'm not saying a team can't get some wins with an average guy, or that the Bills shouldn't have done better regardless of the QB fiasco's of the last decade, but not being able to find THE guy has really been detrimental, and it's hard to get the ball rolling without one. It's a BIG psychological factor. The current Bills KNOW, before the season starts, they are going nowhere.

 

There is a reason why the Bills have had so many injured players during these terrible seasons (no it's not because Rusty Jones is gone). Each season is a pointless, mentally and physically painful exercise to play through. It's human nature. Really, what is the point for them to go out there on a bad knee, take the painkiller shot, rehab HARD, risk shortening an already short career, all to come back in time for the 12th game of the season when the record is 3-9? It's hardly motivating...

 

 

These guys are beaten down, and it permeates the organization

Edited October 5, 2010 by Matthews' Bag

[billsfreak]

There is a difference between rebuilding and recycling, which the Bills have done for over a decade. A third world country could rebuild faster than this organization is. The answer to all the Bills woes points straight at the owner, as nothing happens without his blessing. He is the driving force behind hiring front office personnel and head coaches that no other team would dream of hiring, because they are obvious reaches driven by their low salaries. For people to think that Ralph is actually trying and doesn't see that his efforts are so far below what it takes to be a winner are delusional. He knows it is all his fault, why else would he cancel his Hall of Fame ring ceremony last year because he was afraid he would be boo'd too much. The only way to fix this mess is to get rid of Ralph, or hit him in the wallet and force him to spend, but he has already stolen so much of our hard earned money that he probably doesn't need anymore. When people come on this board or in the media and say that Ralph is upset or embarrassed by this team, it is nothing but a joke. If he truly felt that way he would do something about it, which he has the money and the power to do, but chooses his bank account over the goodness of the organization, the team and the NFL's best fanbase. I would never, ever wish someone death, but I would love nothing more than to get a new owner and turn this mess around, but sadly the only way we will get a new owner is when Ralph passes so our beloved Bills are doomed for quite some time.