Accelerated QB development?

[UticaBill]

I was having a discussion the other day at work about the Bills problems with developing a QB going all the way back to Todd Collins... We both reached the conclusion that the Bills have been rushing their QB's development ever since Kelly's arm went Noodle in '95... we then rush Todd Collins into a role at least a year earlier than most scouts predicted it would take for him to develop, and he quickly failed. Then we traded for RJ and signed Flutie and utterly failed to develop RJ, or use Flutie properly.... but THEN we trade for Bledsoe and draft JP a 2-3 year project with the idea of JP taking over once Drew's contract ran out after 3 years, but he was forced to start after 2 years (with one cut short) and failed, then we draft TE and bring in Fitz only to realize that Fitz has all the intangibles and only few of the tangibles for an NFL QB, while another long-term development project awaits in BB and is seemingly being rushed into the limelight to withstand the pressure.

 

None of this is news to any of us... but the kicker is that within that span we have had seven offensive coordinators and six head coaching changes! Is it even possible to develop a QB with that much change in leadership and philosophy?

 

Our solution was that we need to have and offensive coordinator and QB that will fit together well and STAY together for 3-4 four years with out philosophical change to truly be able to develop ANY future QB for the organization. I truly don't know if I could stand another 3-4 years of ugly football before seeing success, but I do know that if we are not patient with the offense and allow it to find players to fit it and grow, then we will never return to the Superbowl. Defenses are much more dependent upon athleticism and less on cohesion of specific personnel groupings, thus easier to install quickly.

[yungmack]

I was having a discussion the other day at work about the Bills problems with developing a QB going all the way back to Todd Collins... We both reached the conclusion that the Bills have been rushing their QB's development ever since Kelly's arm went Noodle in '95... we then rush Todd Collins into a role at least a year earlier than most scouts predicted it would take for him to develop, and he quickly failed. Then we traded for RJ and signed Flutie and utterly failed to develop RJ, or use Flutie properly.... but THEN we trade for Bledsoe and draft JP a 2-3 year project with the idea of JP taking over once Drew's contract ran out after 3 years, but he was forced to start after 2 years (with one cut short) and failed, then we draft TE and bring in Fitz only to realize that Fitz has all the intangibles and only few of the tangibles for an NFL QB, while another long-term development project awaits in BB and is seemingly being rushed into the limelight to withstand the pressure.

 

None of this is news to any of us... but the kicker is that within that span we have had seven offensive coordinators and six head coaching changes! Is it even possible to develop a QB with that much change in leadership and philosophy?

 

Our solution was that we need to have and offensive coordinator and QB that will fit together well and STAY together for 3-4 four years with out philosophical change to truly be able to develop ANY future QB for the organization. I truly don't know if I could stand another 3-4 years of ugly football before seeing success, but I do know that if we are not patient with the offense and allow it to find players to fit it and grow, then we will never return to the Superbowl. Defenses are much more dependent upon athleticism and less on cohesion of specific personnel groupings, thus easier to install quickly.

That about sums it up. Pick any team over the last 40 years that's had a dominant run over several years (with or without a Super Bowl win) and two things stand out: continuity in the front office, and a long-term head coach. Hopefully the Bills now have a similar situation in place (my fingers are crossed).

[K Gun Special]

its also worthwhile to note that its not like we are ruining great propects here. Its not like the coaching turnover has "ruined" the next great QB, we've drafted and signed a bunch of mid level has beens and wannabes.

[UticaBill]

its also worthwhile to note that its not like we are ruining great propects here. Its not like the coaching turnover has "ruined" the next great QB, we've drafted and signed a bunch of mid level has beens and wannabes.

 

 

Sorry, I thought I noted fairly well that they were all 2-3 year prospects and none were legititmate starters coming out of college...

[K Gun Special]

Sorry, I thought I noted fairly well that they were all 2-3 year prospects and none were legititmate starters coming out of college...

 

 

No worries, i just didnt get that from the post. i dont disagree with anything you said.

 

THe bills lack of success has to do with coaching for sure, but the #1 culprit is lack of talent, at QB especially.

[PS 56]

I was having a discussion the other day at work about the Bills problems with developing a QB going all the way back to Todd Collins... We both reached the conclusion that the Bills have been rushing their QB's development ever since Kelly's arm went Noodle in '95... we then rush Todd Collins into a role at least a year earlier than most scouts predicted it would take for him to develop, and he quickly failed. Then we traded for RJ and signed Flutie and utterly failed to develop RJ, or use Flutie properly.... but THEN we trade for Bledsoe and draft JP a 2-3 year project with the idea of JP taking over once Drew's contract ran out after 3 years, but he was forced to start after 2 years (with one cut short) and failed, then we draft TE and bring in Fitz only to realize that Fitz has all the intangibles and only few of the tangibles for an NFL QB, while another long-term development project awaits in BB and is seemingly being rushed into the limelight to withstand the pressure.

 

None of this is news to any of us... but the kicker is that within that span we have had seven offensive coordinators and six head coaching changes! Is it even possible to develop a QB with that much change in leadership and philosophy?

 

Our solution was that we need to have and offensive coordinator and QB that will fit together well and STAY together for 3-4 four years with out philosophical change to truly be able to develop ANY future QB for the organization. I truly don't know if I could stand another 3-4 years of ugly football before seeing success, but I do know that if we are not patient with the offense and allow it to find players to fit it and grow, then we will never return to the Superbowl. Defenses are much more dependent upon athleticism and less on cohesion of specific personnel groupings, thus easier to install quickly.

 

great post. Kind of sums up our situation perfectly. Those that have followed the career of Drew Brees have seen the development take place. Its very rare that a quarterback steps off the collegiate playing field and has success in the NFL day one.

[PDaDdy]

its also worthwhile to note that its not like we are ruining great propects here. Its not like the coaching turnover has "ruined" the next great QB, we've drafted and signed a bunch of mid level has beens and wannabes.

 

That is not completely true. I honestly feel that JP AND Trent were potentially very serviceable mid/high level potential QBs. Trent in my opinion was the Frank Reich to JP's Jim Kelly. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't read anymore into that than JP was the guy with the cannon AND wheels who if coached and developed properly had everything he needed to succeed in the NFL. Trent on the other hand could have been Mr Reliable sitting on the bench ready to come in and help your team manage through an injury to your starter.

 

I have a GREAT GREAT appreciation for what Marv Levy did for this franchise but playing GM wasn't one of them. Remember it was Levy/Jauron that thought that Trent would make a better starting QB than JP. So far they were wrong on 100% of the calls that they made while they were in Buffalo. I just keep wondering will a real coaching staff turn JP Losman into that "out of nowhere" starter that becomes a good QB in this league. If Al Davis wasn't even more senile than Ralph, JP would have been the starting QB for the Raiders instead of letting Jamarcus finish out his waste of a career there. Food for thought.

[sllib olaffub]

It is a point that isn't discussed much - but, we've given head coaches time to find a QB and to install a good offense - we just haven't had a coach do it right, yet. And, I think that is where Gailey and Nix are going to solve that problem. Nix has already set up a replacement for himself, and it's not like he has to groom the guy, either. Whaley and Nix both have the tough, old-school approach to football, and both have keen evaluation skills. Enter Gailey who, I really think, is going to thrive here. He's got the support, and I think he'll only improve over time as a head coach (most head coaches do much better their second or third shot).

Another way to look at it: would P. Manning or Brady be dominant if their coordinators were being switched every year or two? Brady might just be proof that it is possible. Favre, also, supports the idea - and, I'm guessing McNabb will, too: that really good QB's will always play decent - they just can't do it all on their own.

That is where I'm torn with Trent Edwards. There are many reasons and excuses for not succeeding here in the past three years. Yet, I still think he got scared and played very scared last year.

Nevertheless, stability within the F.O. and coaching is necessary for a team to win consistently, and I'd be happy if it were with the guys we picked up this year.

[Alphadawg7]

I was having a discussion the other day at work about the Bills problems with developing a QB going all the way back to Todd Collins... We both reached the conclusion that the Bills have been rushing their QB's development ever since Kelly's arm went Noodle in '95... we then rush Todd Collins into a role at least a year earlier than most scouts predicted it would take for him to develop, and he quickly failed. Then we traded for RJ and signed Flutie and utterly failed to develop RJ, or use Flutie properly.... but THEN we trade for Bledsoe and draft JP a 2-3 year project with the idea of JP taking over once Drew's contract ran out after 3 years, but he was forced to start after 2 years (with one cut short) and failed, then we draft TE and bring in Fitz only to realize that Fitz has all the intangibles and only few of the tangibles for an NFL QB, while another long-term development project awaits in BB and is seemingly being rushed into the limelight to withstand the pressure.

 

None of this is news to any of us... but the kicker is that within that span we have had seven offensive coordinators and six head coaching changes! Is it even possible to develop a QB with that much change in leadership and philosophy?

 

Our solution was that we need to have and offensive coordinator and QB that will fit together well and STAY together for 3-4 four years with out philosophical change to truly be able to develop ANY future QB for the organization. I truly don't know if I could stand another 3-4 years of ugly football before seeing success, but I do know that if we are not patient with the offense and allow it to find players to fit it and grow, then we will never return to the Superbowl. Defenses are much more dependent upon athleticism and less on cohesion of specific personnel groupings, thus easier to install quickly.

 

Part of the reason we have had so many HC's and OC's over the years is becaue of the atrocious QB's we have had under center. No staff, good or bad, is going to last more than a couple seasons without some kind of stability and consistency from our QB's. So while its true, we have had a lot of rushed QB's and poor development, none of them have ever really proven to be any good even after they left here and got good coaching. Some of these bumbs were inherited by the regime, some were drafted in their tenure. All were rushed to try and save their job...none could handle it.

 

So, yes, its easy to point the finger at the turnover, but the side of the coin no one ever considers is that many of those coaches failed because of the lack of talent we had at QB...I mean even DJ would have had this team a playoff of team if we didnt have a crop of losers under center because he still found a way to get 7 wins every year despite some of the worst QB play in the league most of his tenure here.

 

So while I totally agree with your points, I also think its important to look at the collective group of QB's in that span and you can see a clear gap of talent and a lack of ability to stay on the field. Many of those QB's sealed the coffins of several coaches and OC's, some of which have gone on to have a lot of success elsewhere.

[DarthICE]

That about sums it up. Pick any team over the last 40 years that's had a dominant run over several years (with or without a Super Bowl win) and two things stand out: continuity in the front office, and a long-term head coach. Hopefully the Bills now have a similar situation in place (my fingers are crossed).

 

 

They also had quality talent at the QB position, something we don't have and haven't had since Kelly.

[mattsox]

We need to have a good front office and good coaching staff to turn this problem around. I've seen too many Rookie QBs have success early, ex. Sanchez, Ryan, Flacco. Alot has to do with Good Defenses helping these guys and some of it is pure talent. Flacco and Ryan didn't have such a great year last year. And Lets see how long Coach Ryan sticks with Sanchez if he goes through the sophomore curse. Is he willing to put his head on the chopping block if he starts losing games because of Sanchez poor play? There are alot of factors but it def takes time and patience for a QB to develop. I personally believe the Bills don't have an answer at QB. I hope Gailey can make something happen. But I'm expecting a long year...

[UticaBill]

going back over Bills draft history there is a trend of bringing in a vetran and then drafting a 2nd or 3rd rd pick to groom... Vince Ferragamo was brought in while we drafter Frank Riech in the 3rd... Fergy was another 3rd rounder brought in under a vet, so was Daryl Lamonica under Kemp.... so it seems with the exception of Kelly, the bills have always drafted a project QB and bandaged it with a veteran.

[transient]

I've seen too many Rookie QBs have success early, ex. Sanchez, Ryan, Flacco.

 

I've seen mention of Sanchez's success in a number of places, and I personally believe his "success" was the result of the best running game in the league and the Jets defense. He may have played a few good games, but overall he looked like a rookie.

 

YDS CMP% TD INT RAT

2444 53.8 12 20 63.0

 

Hardly awe inspiring. The fact is he wasn't expected to win games, he was expected not to give them away (like he did in that trainwreck in Buffalo, 5 ints, and a final QB rating in the single digits). I think Flacco and Ryan are more of an exception than the rule, however they were also the beneficiaries of having solid teams in place.

 

As for the Bills in the last decade, they haven't had a solid core in place probably since the Bledsoe seasons, so it's no surprise that the growing pains of young QBs are magnified, especially with the nightmare OC merrygoround we've had in place. When you're expecting a rookie QB or even a young QB to be the reason you win, you're usually setting them up for failure. If you want a young QB to succeed early, you need a dependable running game that can produce even when the opposing defense knows your gameplan is to run it down their throat, and your defense can't get routinely torched for 200+ rushing yards.

[Malazan]

Did the Chicken or the Egg come first?

[mpl6876]

I was having a discussion the other day at work about the Bills problems with developing a QB going all the way back to Todd Collins... We both reached the conclusion that the Bills have been rushing their QB's development ever since Kelly's arm went Noodle in '95... we then rush Todd Collins into a role at least a year earlier than most scouts predicted it would take for him to develop, and he quickly failed. Then we traded for RJ and signed Flutie and utterly failed to develop RJ, or use Flutie properly.... but THEN we trade for Bledsoe and draft JP a 2-3 year project with the idea of JP taking over once Drew's contract ran out after 3 years, but he was forced to start after 2 years (with one cut short) and failed, then we draft TE and bring in Fitz only to realize that Fitz has all the intangibles and only few of the tangibles for an NFL QB, while another long-term development project awaits in BB and is seemingly being rushed into the limelight to withstand the pressure.

 

None of this is news to any of us... but the kicker is that within that span we have had seven offensive coordinators and six head coaching changes! Is it even possible to develop a QB with that much change in leadership and philosophy?

 

Our solution was that we need to have and offensive coordinator and QB that will fit together well and STAY together for 3-4 four years with out philosophical change to truly be able to develop ANY future QB for the organization. I truly don't know if I could stand another 3-4 years of ugly football before seeing success, but I do know that if we are not patient with the offense and allow it to find players to fit it and grow, then we will never return to the Superbowl. Defenses are much more dependent upon athleticism and less on cohesion of specific personnel groupings, thus easier to install quickly.

 

Good post Bill. IMO, there are several reasons why the Bills QB's haven't "panned out." The offensive line has been bad to medicore for years, as you stated the coaching staff and all the changes, and someone stated the QB's we drafted were wannabies ( I agree - first ones to come to mind is JP and Rob Johnson). I am sure others can point out even more reasons.

 

The thought process for many of us is that NIX/Gailey can turn things around. We can be productive at the QB spot instead of a liability. Galiey seems to have a good track record with QB's so time will tell. Bottom line is the Bills fans are desperate for success. Sometimes this desperation "clouts our judgement." Personally, I don't see this team being any good for a long time. I am not buying into the Galiey/Nix/ new regime thing... I did it with Donadope/Malarkey, Greg Williams, Dick Juaron, and Marv Levy the GM. All they did was "break my heart." Wrong or right, this time I am going to protect myself and be pessimistic.

 

A ten (10) year broken hearted Bills fan.

[Nanker]

Did the Chicken or the Egg come first?

Well in terms of this post and in the spirit of looking to the future through the lens of the past, the Chicken came first.

Levy was in place before they corralled Kelly into the fold.

Seems like déjà vu all over again.

 

Of course in the present pop-tart culture, weeny boys wet their pants when they don't witness simultaneous spontaneous generation.

[Thurman#1]

I was having a discussion the other day at work about the Bills problems with developing a QB going all the way back to Todd Collins... We both reached the conclusion that the Bills have been rushing their QB's development ever since Kelly's arm went Noodle in '95... we then rush Todd Collins into a role at least a year earlier than most scouts predicted it would take for him to develop, and he quickly failed. Then we traded for RJ and signed Flutie and utterly failed to develop RJ, or use Flutie properly.... but THEN we trade for Bledsoe and draft JP a 2-3 year project with the idea of JP taking over once Drew's contract ran out after 3 years, but he was forced to start after 2 years (with one cut short) and failed, then we draft TE and bring in Fitz only to realize that Fitz has all the intangibles and only few of the tangibles for an NFL QB, while another long-term development project awaits in BB and is seemingly being rushed into the limelight to withstand the pressure.

 

None of this is news to any of us... but the kicker is that within that span we have had seven offensive coordinators and six head coaching changes! Is it even possible to develop a QB with that much change in leadership and philosophy?

 

Our solution was that we need to have and offensive coordinator and QB that will fit together well and STAY together for 3-4 four years with out philosophical change to truly be able to develop ANY future QB for the organization. I truly don't know if I could stand another 3-4 years of ugly football before seeing success, but I do know that if we are not patient with the offense and allow it to find players to fit it and grow, then we will never return to the Superbowl. Defenses are much more dependent upon athleticism and less on cohesion of specific personnel groupings, thus easier to install quickly.

 

 

 

Excellent post. People really do ignore how important time in one system is for QB development, and certainly the Bills have ignored it for more than a decade.

[Thurman#1]

its also worthwhile to note that its not like we are ruining great propects here. Its not like the coaching turnover has "ruined" the next great QB, we've drafted and signed a bunch of mid level has beens and wannabes.

 

 

 

The point of the first post, and he's correct, is that treatment like that that has been given our QBs since Kelly can turn guys with very legitimate possibilities of turning into franchise QBs into has beens and wannabes.

[Thurman#1]

They also had quality talent at the QB position, something we don't have and haven't had since Kelly.

 

 

 

No way to know that. Brees sure didn't look like quality talent for his first three years. And there are a million other examples. I'm not saying there WAS quality talent here since Kelly. Just that in the right circumstances, it's POSSIBLE there MIGHT HAVE BEEN.

[Thurman#1]

Did the Chicken or the Egg come first?

 

 

 

Both the chicken and the egg were produced by a system, a system which has efficiently hummed along for billions of years, called evolution. Luckily QBs don't require billions of years, but they sure as hell generally require 3 or 4 years surrounded by an efficient system.