NewEra Posted March 10, 2010 Author Share Posted March 10, 2010 dam R. Rich, we joned tsw on the same day almost 8 years ago. Our bday is coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Dan's Revenge Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 He's one of the reason I put Neither as an option. Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Magic and Oscar Robertson are all great. I would add Bird to this list. He's in the top 5 all-time for me. Back to the original topic, I think you did a good job of wording it when you said that there was a difference between being the "Greatest" and "Best" ever at a particular sport. I'd like to point out first that I'm a Laker fan, so I do have a bit of a bias in this. I think when it is all said and done, Kobe will have me convinced that he is the best NBA player that I've ever watched. He's already damn close to doing so, IMO. What really bothers me about the classic Kobe haters is that they always seem to point to 3 out of his 4 championships coming with Shaq on the team as if that's supposed to be some sort of discredit. Not many people talk about the fact that Jordan was fortunate enough to play with Scottie Pippen, who might be the greatest man-to-man defender that the league has seen in the past 3 decades. Also a very good scorer. One of the most underrated players in the history of the game, IMO. MJ also had Dennis on his side for many of Chicago's glory years, who is a top-20 all time rebounder and a GREAT defender during those years. Shaq was an incredible force in his prime, but it's not like Jordan was playing with a bunch of scrubs out there. They both were coached by Phil for the majority of their careers, so that's a wash. The thing with Kobe Bryant is that he has evolved as a player over the years and has gotten better and better because he's learned to trust his teammates, and become more of a playmaker for long stretches of the game before taking over in the final 5 or 6 minutes. If he didn't learn to do that as well as he had, then I don't know if we're ever having this conversation. It's the reason why another 2-3 titles aren't out of the question for Kobe, especially considering the kind of shape he keeps himself in, and the dedication he has to his craft. He's lost some of his explosiveness over the years, so he now makes a LIVING in the paint. In this regard he's re-invented himself as a player. He can still get to the rack, knock down open threes, and defend with the best of them. He has the best mid-range game that I have ever saw. Almost unstoppable, even with perfect defense. And, obviously, he has evolved into one of the best closers that has ever played the game. I think one of the best things to happen to Kobe was the emergence of LeBron into the league. In the couple of years before King James came around, no one in the league was even close to the talent level of Kobe Bryant, and I think that this rivalry that's been getting hotter and hotter over the years has really fueled Bryant to continue to take his game to another level. Jordan's prime was at the tail-end of guys like Magic and Bird's careers, so it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Jordan had a guy like LeBron to compete with on an individual level like Kobe does. I kind of shy away from saying that Kobe is better than Jordan at this moment, but I can easily see myself saying that with some confidence in a couple of years. It will be very interesting to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 Good to see we have some basketball fans amongst us. I love Magic, he helped make my favorite player of all times, James Worthy, into one of the games greatest. While it is right to give Magic some credit for Worthy's success in the NBA, I think Dean Smith was the biggest factor in making Worthy and Jordan the great players they became. Don't believe me? Ask them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 dam R. Rich, we joned tsw on the same day almost 8 years ago. Our bday is coming. Well, actually, I gradually made my way to the Wall. I started just reading the Two Bills Drive front page for a while, then started to actually read the Wall posts right after 9/11. I did that for a few months before I registered and then kept reading for 'bout another 4 months before I began posting. I see you registered 10 users ahead of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 I would add Bird to this list. He's in the top 5 all-time for me. How could you not? The guy had crazy range in terms of shooting, was as fundamentally sound as any player before or since, and one of the best passers to ever play the game. That, plus he was one of the all-time trash talkers too, though he wasn't as ignorant as today's brand of trash talkers. Here's my all time starting 5: Poing guard: Magic Johnson Best player of all time, though I am sure Generation ESPN would beg to differ. Off guard: Michael Jordan Phenomenal player, and maybe the next best player all time after Magic. Forward: Julius Erving The "One Man Fast Break", Dr. J would block a shot, recover it, and then finish the play on the other end, usually in spectacular fashion. Right, Michael Cooper? Forward: Larry Bird For all of the reasons mentioned above. Bird and Magic kept the NBA from tanking in the 80s, as before they arrived, the Finals were on tape delay. The league owes those two more than they could ever repay. Center: Bill Russell As one of my old Street and Smith basketball guides once said of Russ, "11 championships in 13 years. Nuff said." Perhaps the greatest winner of 'em all: winning championships in college, as a pro player, and as a pro player/coach (and Sportsman of the Year). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 How could you not? The guy had crazy range in terms of shooting, was as fundamentally sound as any player before or since, and one of the best passers to ever play the game. That, plus he was one of the all-time trash talkers too, though he wasn't as ignorant as today's brand of trash talkers. Here's my all time starting 5: Poing guard: Magic Johnson Best player of all time, though I am sure Generation ESPN would beg to differ. Off guard: Michael Jordan Phenomenal player, and maybe the next best player all time after Magic. Forward: Julius Erving The "One Man Fast Break", Dr. J would block a shot, recover it, and then finish the play on the other end, usually in spectacular fashion. Right, Michael Cooper? Forward: Larry Bird For all of the reasons mentioned above. Bird and Magic kept the NBA from tanking in the 80s, as before they arrived, the Finals were on tape delay. The league owes those two more than they could ever repay. Center: Bill Russell As one of my old Street and Smith basketball guides once said of Russ, "11 championships in 13 years. Nuff said." Perhaps the greatest winner of 'em all: winning championships in college, as a pro player, and as a pro player/coach (and Sportsman of the Year). Magic is truly one of the best players of all time. But he got a ton of help from his teammates, in terms of the championships. A lot of help indeed. One might say he had...aides? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted March 11, 2010 Author Share Posted March 11, 2010 Magic is truly one of the best players of all time. But he got a ton of help from his teammates, in terms of the championships. A lot of help indeed. One might say he had...aides? yikes!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted March 11, 2010 Author Share Posted March 11, 2010 How could you not? The guy had crazy range in terms of shooting, was as fundamentally sound as any player before or since, and one of the best passers to ever play the game. That, plus he was one of the all-time trash talkers too, though he wasn't as ignorant as today's brand of trash talkers. Here's my all time starting 5: Poing guard: Magic Johnson Best player of all time, though I am sure Generation ESPN would beg to differ. Off guard: Michael Jordan Phenomenal player, and maybe the next best player all time after Magic. Forward: Julius Erving The "One Man Fast Break", Dr. J would block a shot, recover it, and then finish the play on the other end, usually in spectacular fashion. Right, Michael Cooper? Forward: Larry Bird For all of the reasons mentioned above. Bird and Magic kept the NBA from tanking in the 80s, as before they arrived, the Finals were on tape delay. The league owes those two more than they could ever repay. Center: Bill Russell As one of my old Street and Smith basketball guides once said of Russ, "11 championships in 13 years. Nuff said." Perhaps the greatest winner of 'em all: winning championships in college, as a pro player, and as a pro player/coach (and Sportsman of the Year). I'm not sure if I'd include Dr. J in there, but I didnt really start watching him til about 1982. I've seen highlight of his first years, but it's hard to comprehend ones greatness unless you've watched them play year after year. I's probably have to put PG- Magic SG- Jordan SF- Bird PF- Duncan C- Wilt/Russell/Kareem/Hakeem/Shaq (yes SHAQ!) Too hard for me to pick a center because I never watched Wilt/Russell/Kareem in thier prime. It's hard for me to envision anyone being THAT much more dominant than Hakeem and Shaq in their primes. Both were THAT good. Duncan gets the nod becuase I didnt get to see DR J play as much as Timmy. I hate him, but he was a true silent assassin...3 titles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 I'm not sure if I'd include Dr. J in there, but I didnt really start watching him til about 1982. I've seen highlight of his first years, but it's hard to comprehend ones greatness unless you've watched them play year after year. I's probably have to put PG- Magic SG- Jordan SF- Bird PF- Duncan C- Wilt/Russell/Kareem/Hakeem/Shaq (yes SHAQ!) Too hard for me to pick a center because I never watched Wilt/Russell/Kareem in thier prime. It's hard for me to envision anyone being THAT much more dominant than Hakeem and Shaq in their primes. Both were THAT good. Duncan gets the nod becuase I didnt get to see DR J play as much as Timmy. I hate him, but he was a true silent assassin...3 titles. How do you hate Duncan? He's gotta be the most inoffensive guy in all of sports. Boring as hell sure, but I don't get how anybody could hate the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide_right Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 How about Bill Russell? 11 championships. Just think about that for a second. 11. Plus, the greatest defensive player to ever live. When most people talk greatest ever, they only think of offense (which Russell had by the bushel) but 50% of the game is preventing the other team from scoring. When a game is so heavily oriented to scoring, the offensive star is more valuable than a defensive one. Russell great record for sure ... but he fit into a system. MJ in his prime would have made any team a contender due to his offensive talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted March 11, 2010 Author Share Posted March 11, 2010 How do you hate Duncan? He's gotta be the most inoffensive guy in all of sports. Boring as hell sure, but I don't get how anybody could hate the guy. I'm a north carolina fan. He and Randolph Childress tormented me for 4 years. I can easily hate him. Not to mention being a laker fan, and watching him torment my lakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Dan's Revenge Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 When a game is so heavily oriented to scoring, the offensive star is more valuable than a defensive one. Russell great record for sure ... but he fit into a system. MJ in his prime would have made any team a contender due to his offensive talent. Actually, with no 3-point line at the time, the game was played almost exclusively closer to the basket, making a dominant defensive center like Russell all the more valuable. He was also arguably the best playoff performer in NBA history. Was Chamberlain more talented offensively? Without question. Did he have half the balls or will to win as Bill Russell? Not a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 I'm a north carolina fan. He and Randolph Childress tormented me for 4 years. I can easily hate him. Not to mention being a laker fan, and watching him torment my lakers. Fair enough, I suppose. But I guess I just never understood hating on a guy for playing on the opposing team. Hating on the team itself, well that's what rivalry is all about. But not the individual players or coaches if they don't deserve it. Duncan is truly one of the good guys in modern athletics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Dan's Revenge Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 Here's my all time starting 5: Poing guard: Magic Johnson Best player of all time, though I am sure Generation ESPN would beg to differ. Off guard: Michael Jordan Phenomenal player, and maybe the next best player all time after Magic. Forward: Julius Erving The "One Man Fast Break", Dr. J would block a shot, recover it, and then finish the play on the other end, usually in spectacular fashion. Right, Michael Cooper? Forward: Larry Bird For all of the reasons mentioned above. Bird and Magic kept the NBA from tanking in the 80s, as before they arrived, the Finals were on tape delay. The league owes those two more than they could ever repay. Center: Bill Russell As one of my old Street and Smith basketball guides once said of Russ, "11 championships in 13 years. Nuff said." Perhaps the greatest winner of 'em all: winning championships in college, as a pro player, and as a pro player/coach (and Sportsman of the Year). Classic Cooper name drop! Guy probably had nightmares about Dr.J for 6 months. Nice list, hard to argue with any of those. Here's mine: Point Guard: Oscar Robertson - One of the best all-around players the league has ever seen. Off Guard: MJ/Kobe () Forward: Larry Bird - 'Nuff has already been said about Bird. Forward: LeBron James - Assuming he doesn't shred an ACL or something, he's definetely going to be in the top-5 all-time) Center: Bill Russell - The winningest athlete in the history of the 4 major sports. God I wish this was possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted March 11, 2010 Author Share Posted March 11, 2010 Fair enough, I suppose. But I guess I just never understood hating on a guy for playing on the opposing team. Hating on the team itself, well that's what rivalry is all about. But not the individual players or coaches if they don't deserve it. Duncan is truly one of the good guys in modern athletics. I don't HATE him per say, but I always root against his team, so I root against him. I know you don't like Tom Brady...or Dan MArino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted March 11, 2010 Author Share Posted March 11, 2010 Classic Cooper name drop! Guy probably had nightmares about Dr.J for 6 months. Nice list, hard to argue with any of those. Here's mine: Point Guard: Oscar Robertson - One of the best all-around players the league has ever seen. Off Guard: MJ/Kobe () Forward: Larry Bird - 'Nuff has already been said about Bird. Forward: LeBron James - Assuming he doesn't shred an ACL or something, he's definetely going to be in the top-5 all-time) Center: Bill Russell - The winningest athlete in the history of the 4 major sports. God I wish this was possible. lebron will be there.....IF he wins a title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Dan's Revenge Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 lebron will be there.....IF he wins a title. With LeBron it's not a matter of if, it's just when. And I'm a huge Kobe fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 For traveling and palming the ball? For not having fouls called against them? Yup they're both the greatest. What? Michael "Walk" Jordan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 What? Michael "Walk" Jordan! Most of the "star" players take liberties @ will when it comes to those violations. I can recall a game where Patrick Ewing took a layup.....from 'bout 4 paces away from HALF COURT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 what about Pistol Pete? Pete was great, and very entertaining to watch, but not an "all-timer"...he was the Alan Iverson of his day, with a little more flair, on the basketball court... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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