/dev/null Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopu...storyID=6911883 i'm not a religous guy but i don't have a problem with our nations religous heritage. whenever i hear these lame wastes of sperm and an egg go off on their anti-christian heritage i'm reminded of a quote by Stewie from Family Guy Yes, I rather like this God fellow. He's very theatrical, you know, a pestilence here, a plague there. Omnipotence. Gotta get me some of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopu...storyID=6911883 i'm not a religous guy but i don't have a problem with our nations religous heritage. whenever i hear these lame wastes of sperm and an egg go off on their anti-christian heritage i'm reminded of a quote by Stewie from Family Guy 132746[/snapback] The only thing worse than religion in government is government in schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Meanwhile, in some bad place a long way from home a Marine just died in the name of their right to be so correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 Meanwhile, in some bad place a long way from home a Marine just died in the name of their right to be so correct. 132763[/snapback] Or a police officer closer to home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted November 24, 2004 Share Posted November 24, 2004 http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopu...storyID=6911883 i'm not a religous guy but i don't have a problem with our nations religous heritage. whenever i hear these lame wastes of sperm and an egg go off on their anti-christian heritage i'm reminded of a quote by Stewie from Family Guy 132746[/snapback] No kidding, liberals hate America? Next thing I know, you'll be telling me fat people were in line at McDonalds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wham Rocks Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Liberals hate America! Liberals hate our freedoms! Liberals hate the troops! LOL... pay a little more attention, children, if you will. From the sounds of it, this is a fairly zealous teacher whom students and/or parents may have complained about in the past. Why else would Steven Williams be "required to submit all of his lesson plans and supplemental handouts to [Principal] Vidmar for approval"? Technically, the Declaration of Independence is not "banned" in the school, the principal probably has a tight leash on Mr. Williams for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wham Rocks Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Oh no, what have I stumbled upon? Williams said the problems started last year after he responded to a student who asked why the Pledge of Allegiance includes the phrase, ``under God.'' Eventually a parent complained and the principal started requesting his lesson plans and handouts. Sounds to me like Mr. Williams may have an agenda. But I'm sure if he espouses selected religious quotes from our founding fathers, he'll fairly shed light upon anti-religious quotes from our founding fathers as well, right? Maybe a couple like... "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve the homage of Reason rather than that of blindfolded Fear." -- Thomas Jefferson "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." --Thomas Paine "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preservedÑthe Cross. Consider what calamaties that engine of grief has produced!" --John Adams "Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system." --Thomas Paine "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --James Madison "When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." --Benjamin Franklin "Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law." --Thomas Paine "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson Anyway... The personal faith of our founding fathers is of very little importance to me since the main constructers of the Cosntitition believed in full religious freedom. It also strikes me as bizarre that their personal faith is even an issue in an ELEMENTARY SCHOOL classroom. Shouldn't they learn to locate their home state on a map or learn basic history first? I'd be impressed if any of the kids can even recite the first 5 presidents, let alone have any clue what their spiritual beliefs were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Meanwhile, in some bad place a long way from home a Marine just died in the name of their right to be so correct. 132763[/snapback] And 5 more sit at their local VA with no legs. My deepest sympathy goes out to their family on this Thanksgiving. I most be one cold SOB? Get over it, life goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 The only thing worse than religion in government is government in schools. 132756[/snapback] What kind of dream world do you live in Darin? Oh schools were so much better 100 years ago? Do a search on conditons in the "one room schoolhouse." Little none FACT... They weren't portrayed to be red until the 1950's, about 10 years AFTER the last ones ceased operating... There is some real revisionist history there! Look into how these were upkept (or to more accurately say UNKEPT)? Look into who the teachers were, what they were paid? Look at the health conditions that existed? There is a reason why governement is in schools... Because they SUCKED prior to government intervention. You think they are bad now?... Think again o wise, nostalgic one... They were worse before. I think you have been watching too much "Little House on the Prarie." Oh ya! Sure the kids practiced their repetative penmenship, and learned the 3 R's but, the cholera got to them faster, along with the overcrowding, overflowing outhouses, stiffling heat and bitter cold. Ya... Bring back the "good ole days" Darin! Quite the revisionist you are? I guess you don't want to hear the FACTS... Facts suck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjamie12 Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 The only thing worse than religion in government is government in schools. 132756[/snapback] I've seen this (or some other derivative of this) posted by you numerous times, but I have never heard what your thoughts are on how schools *should* be run. Was interested to know what your ideas were... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted November 25, 2004 Author Share Posted November 25, 2004 I've seen this (or some other derivative of this) posted by you numerous times, but I have never heard what your thoughts are on how schools *should* be run. Was interested to know what your ideas were... 133164[/snapback] i just noticed your "Joined" date, not a good day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losman-McGahee-Evans Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Unfortunately, this is a complete lie. The teacher was FORCING his students to listen to and read "Christian Nation" propaganda. The school asked him to stop. The teacher is suing the school with the help of a right-wing "Christian Law" organization, the Alliance Defense Fund. (http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/) Also see this : http://www.alliancealert.org/ The school did NOT "ban the Declaration of Independence" -- that is just a lie. This story is like when you hear that a man was "arrested for praying" and you find out he was kneeling in the middle of a busy intersection at rush hour and refused to move. This was a BIG STORY today, on Rush, and Drudge, and the rest of the Usual Suspects. And it is a carefully planned and carefully timed lie. The story was timed for this afternoon so that it cannot be refuted until Monday. It is timed to cause fights and hatred at family Thanksgiving dinners across the country. It is part of a strategy to reinforce a "conventional wisdom" notion that "liberals" are "going too far" with their demands of separation of church and state. People For the American Way has a web page about the Alliance Defense Fund if you are so inclined : http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=4457 ADF's Founders: Bill Bright, founder of Campus Crusade for Christ Larry Burkett, founder of Christian Financial Concepts Rev. James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family Rev. D. James Kennedy, founder of Coral Ridge Ministries Marlin Maddoux, President of International Christian Media Don Wildmon, founder of American Family Association (And 25+ other ministries) President and General Counsel: Alan Sears Date of founding: 1994 Finances: $15,411,093 (2001 budget) And note this: 'ADF defines itself by its ability to strategize and coordinate with lawyers all over the United States.' And this : 'ADF also defends the right of Christians to 'share the gospel' in workplaces and public schools, claiming that any efforts to curb proselytizing at work and school are anti-Christian.' "Strategize and coordinate." Sounds like what's happening with this story, planted on Rush and Drudge, in time for the holiday. I suspect many of you are going to miss how wrong and important this is -- how big of an effect this is going to have on things we care about. This story is designed as ammunition for family conversations tomorrow. In fact, O'Reilly was on the air on FOX saying "Another ruling by an activist judge that puts us all in danger." That's an exact quote. It isn't about this story, but it reinforces it: Yet more "liberals' who are "going too far." See the forest. See how this stuff works! To be clear about this story, the school said the teacher could not use handouts that INCLUDED quotes from the Declaration and other documents. A San Mateo Times story says, "She then prevented Williams from giving students several handouts including: - Excerpts from the Declaration of Independence with references to "God," "Creator," and "Supreme Judge." And from the Alliance's press release, 'Attorneys with the Alliance Defense Fund filed suit yesterday against the Cupertino Union School District for prohibiting a teacher from providing SUPPLEMENTAL handouts to students about American history because the historical documents contain some references to God and religion.' Supplemental handouts, huh? I wonder where he got those from? That's all this is. The rest is strategic disinformation -- agitprop. And for the Right's spin on the story -- how's suing for saying "Merry Christmas?" Update II - Digby's on it too. And the blogosphere is picking it up: Atrios, Daou Report. Now Blue Lemur, Liberal Oasis, Information Clearing House, First Draft, APJ, archy. We might just get the major media involved and beat this lie down before it does too much damage! 2 years from now, the right-wingers will still be talking about that story like it was true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 It is timed to cause fights and hatred at family Thanksgiving dinners across the country.133223[/snapback] Your post is well researched, organized and logical - except for that. Remove the emotion, and you have a convincing argument, and good information. I think there's a lot wrong with the efforts to remove any and all references to God from all government property, but there's no place for missionary work in public schools (if that's what was going on). There should be room in the curriculum for the discussion of religion and it's role in our nation's history - uh, perhaps not in elementary school, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losman-McGahee-Evans Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 Your post is well researched, organized and logical - except for that. Remove the emotion, and you have a convincing argument, and good information. I think there's a lot wrong with the efforts to remove any and all references to God from all government property, but there's no place for missionary work in public schools (if that's what was going on). There should be room in the curriculum for the discussion of religion and it's role in our nation's history - uh, perhaps not in elementary school, though. 133238[/snapback] What the teacher was doing was wrong in a public school. What about kids of different faith's? It's not about removing all references. It's about prostelytizing at public schools. If the teacher wishes to do this they can...at a private school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 I guess you don't want to hear the FACTS... Facts suck? 133152[/snapback] facts? What facts? You didn't present a single fact in your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjamie12 Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 i just noticed your "Joined" date, not a good day 133212[/snapback] Not a good date, indeed. I actually had been around since 1999, but for some reason, my login got messed up, and I had to switch. I was working in NYC then (24th and Madison) and logged in to try and see what was going on, and to see if I could get a message somehow to my parents or friends... Not good times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alg Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 Oh no, what have I stumbled upon? Williams said the problems started last year after he responded to a student who asked why the Pledge of Allegiance includes the phrase, ``under God.'' Eventually a parent complained and the principal started requesting his lesson plans and handouts. Sounds to me like Mr. Williams may have an agenda. 133112[/snapback] Sounds to me like the parent has the agenda. One that does not include God in the training of the child. Perhaps Mr Williams is just teaching "lost" history. The one being relagated to oblivion by the secular humanists that want God removed from our culture. If you think this country and world have problems now, wait till it is unfashionable to believe in God. Oh wait, it already is! Thank God many of us manage to ignore it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 Sounds to me like the parent has the agenda. One that does not include God in the training of the child. Perhaps Mr Williams is just teaching "lost" history. The one being relagated to oblivion by the secular humanists that want God removed from our culture. If you think this country and world have problems now, wait till it is unfashionable to believe in God. Oh wait, it already is! Thank God many of us manage to ignore it... 134226[/snapback] I would counter that is isn't. The vast majority of Americans still believe, despite what the unsilent minority keeps beating people over the head with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wham Rocks Posted November 26, 2004 Share Posted November 26, 2004 Sounds to me like the parent has the agenda. One that does not include God in the training of the child. Perhaps Mr Williams is just teaching "lost" history. The one being relagated to oblivion by the secular humanists that want God removed from our culture. If you think this country and world have problems now, wait till it is unfashionable to believe in God. Oh wait, it already is! Thank God many of us manage to ignore it... 134226[/snapback] LOL! Read what Losman-McGahee-Evans posted then get back to me. This isn't Michael Newdow we're talking about here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Today, I caught just the end of an interview with the teacher on KGO radio in SF. This station is not the conservative station and the host is moderate to liberal. The teacher said that he has talked about Ramadan, haunauka (sp?) and other religious holidays in class. The incident in question arose when a kid in class asked a question about religion and the founding fathers. Within an hour after the end of classes for the day, the principal is showing up in his classroom asking about it. The host thinks that the teacher was sandbagged, being set up for trouble by having a parent tell his kid to ask the question. How did the principal know about it so soon after class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Unfortunately, this is a complete lie. The teacher was FORCING his students to listen to and read "Christian Nation" propaganda. The school asked him to stop. The teacher is suing the school with the help of a right-wing "Christian Law" organization, the Alliance Defense Fund. (http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/) Also see this : http://www.alliancealert.org/ The school did NOT "ban the Declaration of Independence" -- that is just a lie. This story is like when you hear that a man was "arrested for praying" and you find out he was kneeling in the middle of a busy intersection at rush hour and refused to move. This was a BIG STORY today, on Rush, and Drudge, and the rest of the Usual Suspects. And it is a carefully planned and carefully timed lie. The story was timed for this afternoon so that it cannot be refuted until Monday. It is timed to cause fights and hatred at family Thanksgiving dinners across the country. It is part of a strategy to reinforce a "conventional wisdom" notion that "liberals" are "going too far" with their demands of separation of church and state. People For the American Way has a web page about the Alliance Defense Fund if you are so inclined : http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=4457 ADF's Founders: Bill Bright, founder of Campus Crusade for Christ Larry Burkett, founder of Christian Financial Concepts Rev. James Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family Rev. D. James Kennedy, founder of Coral Ridge Ministries Marlin Maddoux, President of International Christian Media Don Wildmon, founder of American Family Association (And 25+ other ministries) President and General Counsel: Alan Sears Date of founding: 1994 Finances: $15,411,093 (2001 budget) And note this: 'ADF defines itself by its ability to strategize and coordinate with lawyers all over the United States.' And this : 'ADF also defends the right of Christians to 'share the gospel' in workplaces and public schools, claiming that any efforts to curb proselytizing at work and school are anti-Christian.' "Strategize and coordinate." Sounds like what's happening with this story, planted on Rush and Drudge, in time for the holiday. I suspect many of you are going to miss how wrong and important this is -- how big of an effect this is going to have on things we care about. This story is designed as ammunition for family conversations tomorrow. In fact, O'Reilly was on the air on FOX saying "Another ruling by an activist judge that puts us all in danger." That's an exact quote. It isn't about this story, but it reinforces it: Yet more "liberals' who are "going too far." See the forest. See how this stuff works! To be clear about this story, the school said the teacher could not use handouts that INCLUDED quotes from the Declaration and other documents. A San Mateo Times story says, "She then prevented Williams from giving students several handouts including: - Excerpts from the Declaration of Independence with references to "God," "Creator," and "Supreme Judge." And from the Alliance's press release, 'Attorneys with the Alliance Defense Fund filed suit yesterday against the Cupertino Union School District for prohibiting a teacher from providing SUPPLEMENTAL handouts to students about American history because the historical documents contain some references to God and religion.' Supplemental handouts, huh? I wonder where he got those from? That's all this is. The rest is strategic disinformation -- agitprop. And for the Right's spin on the story -- how's suing for saying "Merry Christmas?" Update II - Digby's on it too. And the blogosphere is picking it up: Atrios, Daou Report. Now Blue Lemur, Liberal Oasis, Information Clearing House, First Draft, APJ, archy. We might just get the major media involved and beat this lie down before it does too much damage! 2 years from now, the right-wingers will still be talking about that story like it was true. 133223[/snapback] You haven't been on this board for long. If you had, you would be able to wall paper Ralph Wilson Stadium with prints of posts like this. "Look at the crazy liberals now..." theme is a favorite here. The vast majority of these all turn out to be some ridiculous overstatement, outright lie or based on the actions of a handful of lunatics. You see, I voted for Kerry and I recently learned that I must therefore, ergo, be a "friend of PETA". Some wack files a lawsuit somewhere and all of a sudden every democrat on the planet is assumed to be a named plantiff in the case. It doesn't seem to work the other way when one of these Lamb of God nuts shoots a Doctor in the head. Then we are supposed to recognize the difference between and extremist psycho on the right and everyone else on the right. No such suttle distinctions are made when they are talking about the left. In any event, thanks for vetting the story but you will have a second full time job if you try to keep up with this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Tate Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 You haven't been on this board for long.135212[/snapback] Sounding awfully alone there. That only happens to those on the left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 Sounding awfully alone there. That only happens to those on the left? 135312[/snapback] I think we did a survey not too long ago and the right-left around here is about 6 or 7 to one. Roughly similar to Air America vs. Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter, Ingram, Schlesinger, Savage, O'Reilly, Liddy and North to name a few. We are only just catching up in the "idiots with a microphone" arms race. Beyond that, I have been around here long enough and posted enough to get a sense of this and the "look at these crazy liberals" posts far outnumber similar stuff from the other side, especially when it comes to completely twisted, soon debunked stuff. Apart from this one, just the other day someone was posting pics of glass tubes that said "Sarin" on them taken in Iraq, claiming that they proved that there were WMD's when we invaded. A number of "Aha, take that libs" comments were posted before someone with experience with those tubes identified them as part of a detection device where you insert a tube that says "Sarin" and then sample the air, if the tube changes color, there is Sarin gas presence. In other words, what was photographed was our own chem detection equipment. From the day we invaded up to that thread, I would guestimate that we average about 2-3 threads a week of posts claiming to have found WMD's in Iraq. All were shot down within days and the perps of those threads learned nothing. The same culprits post the same stuff and make the same mistakes over and over. There is never an apology, a mea culpa or any acknowldgement that their record on the issue is around 0 and 337 or so. Of course, they do break up their posts with an occasional lecture on how Michael Moore has no credibility. Another example just came to mind. Some lunatic recently set himself on fire outside the Whitehouse. Somebody immediately posted it and claimed that it was a distraught democrat. Of course, that was not the case as soon became evident but not before we were all treated with another round of "look at those crazy libs". With that type of attitude being held by so many, and yes it is not all one sided, it has become next to impossible to have anything close to an intelligent discussion with the vast majority of posters here. Really, how do I have a converstation with someone who seriously thinks I am just a baby killing, terrorist loving sodomite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 Really, how do I have a converstation with someone who seriously thinks I am just a baby killing, terrorist loving sodomite? You mean you're not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 Really, how do I have a converstation with someone who seriously thinks I am just a baby killing, terrorist loving sodomite? 135457[/snapback] And a pleather-wearing tree-hugging PETA supporter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_BiB_ Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 And a pleather-wearing tree-hugging PETA supporter... 135625[/snapback] And to top it ALL off. A lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wham Rocks Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 Some lunatic recently set himself on fire outside the Whitehouse. Somebody immediately posted it and claimed that it was a distraught democrat. Of course, that was not the case as soon became evident but not before we were all treated with another round of "look at those crazy libs". With that type of attitude being held by so many, and yes it is not all one sided, it has become next to impossible to have anything close to an intelligent discussion with the vast majority of posters here. Really, how do I have a converstation with someone who seriously thinks I am just a baby killing, terrorist loving sodomite? 135457[/snapback] LOL! Newsflash, homeboy: Public discourse isn't exactly at an all-time high. The trick is to drop to the lowest possible level and hope you appeal to and/or create a base. Intellectually vacuous rhetoric like "Liberals hate America" (Ann Coulter) and "Liberals hate morals" (Michael Savage) are amazingly effective because they activate and incite large groups of political indifferents. Republicans are winning the battle because they have more infectious rhetoric, both in quantity and quality. Democrats are total amatuers and need to appeal to the new age of soundbytes and base emotions if they want to be a force politically. Sure it lowers the bar of public dialog, but at least it's entertaining. A guy like me who's not thrilled with either side gets a front row view of the mudslinging; and even gets to throw a little mud occassionally. I use the same tactics, they're fun if nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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