(OT) U.S. Marine petition.

[mary owen]

The rules of war...  Rules that only Americans are supposed to follow.  Ask any ranger that jumped into Panama, did the enemy wait until they landed to open fire.  After all, its against the rules of war to fire on an airborne trooper while they are parachuting in.  The same rules that say in an ambush, you can't "double tap" a person after you cross that road.  Its hard for me to find fault in a solider while in a combat zone, fighting an enemy wearing civilian clothes.  With the added stress of having to worry about civilians walking up to them and blowing themselves up.  Yeah the guy !@#$ed up... I doubt if it was premeditated.  War isn't pretty, get over it.

124509[/snapback]

 

 

with all due respect, Detox, and we seem to be on the same side here, but I really don't feel he screwed up. The screw up is on the photo journalist. Think about it. Why isn't he sending home footage of the carbombings, or people beheaded by those scum terrorists, or the fake surrender flag ambushes, etc. Maybe not the fault of the journalist, but those he works for. Our soldier did the right thing.

[yall]

The thing that is unfortunate from my perspective about this petition is that it seems to advocate abandoning the rule of law and review of this case.

123869[/snapback]

 

That is where you are wrong. It doesn't advocate abandoning the rule of law.

 

The law plainly states that the Marine was well within his rights to shoot the fighter. The Geneva convention doesn't apply to them.

 

He shot a combatant in a combat theater. No flag on the play.

[Bad Things]

And so the debate continues...

 

I'm not going to jump into the fire here, because I have not idea what the facts are. (I haven't seen the video, nor do I ever intend on seeing it.)

The thing that pisses me off is all the "rah rah rah" type of people still saying that people who were against the war are against the troops.

 

For all you guys... do a google search on DP "Depleted Uranium" and see how supportive we are of our troops. It's a crying shame.

 

Educate yourself with thte facts and then, formulate your own opinion using your God given brain. Don't let them force feed crap down your throat.

 

DEPLETED URANIUM has the potential to make Agent Orange look like nothing. Plus... we know about it BEFOREHAND.

 

If you Gung-ho types want to support your troops... look into this stevestojan.

 

And as for the Marine and the man he killed... May God bless both of their souls.

[Thurman's Helmet]

And as for the Marine and the man he killed... May God bless both of their souls.

124868[/snapback]

 

Yes, may god bless that scum sucking terrorist's soul. I'm suprised you even through in the Marine, but then again, you probably feel he needs it for the "heinous crimes against man" he committed right?

[Guest churchill]

Sign it

123596[/snapback]

 

 

I guess if the "Commander in Chief" can violate international laws and the Geneva Convention and the US Constitution, who are we to deny a simple Marine the same priviledges!

[USMCBillsFan]

Of couse I signed this. Most of you will never understand what it's like to be in this young Marines situation. To call this a "War Crime" is purely idiotic. I do this so you don't have to. So before you sit back and judge what we do then consider signing a fuggin contract and join me. If you have not the intestinal fortitude then just as we give you the freedom of speech to voice your opinion, we also give you the right to shut the !@#$ up.... :I starred in Brokeback Mountain:

[MarkyMannn]

A young Marine and his cover man cautiously enter a room just recently

 

> filled with insurgents armed with Ak-47's and RPG's. There are three

> dead, another wailing in pain. The insurgent can be heard saying,

> "Mister, mister! Diktoor, diktoor(doctor)!" He is badly wounded, lying

 

> in a pool of his own blood. The Marine and his cover man slowly walk

> toward the injured man, scanning to make sure no enemies come from

> behind. In a split second, the pressure in the room greatly exceeds

> that of the outside, and the concussion seems to be felt before the

> blast is heard. Marines outside rush to the room, and look in horror

> as the dust gradually settles. The result is a room filled with the

> barely recognizable remains of the deceased, caused by an insurgent

> setting off several pounds of

explosives.

> The Marines' remains are gathered by teary eyed

> comrades, brothers in arms, and shipped home in a box. The families

> can

only

> mourn over a casket and a picture of their loved one, a life cut short

 

> by someone who hid behind a white flag. But no one hears these

> stories,

except

> those who have lived to carry remains of a friend, and the families

> who loved the dead. No one hears this, so no one cares.

>

> This is the story everyone hears:

>

> A young Marine and his fire team cautiously enter a room just recently

 

> filled with insurgents armed with AK-47's and RPG's. There are three

> dead, another wailing in pain. The insugent can be heard saying,

> "Mister,mister! Diktoor, diktoor(doctor)!" He is badly

> wounded.Suddenly, he pulls from

under

> his bloody clothes a grenade, without the pin. The explosion rocks the

room,

> killing one Marine, wounding the others. The young Marine catches

> shrapnel in the face. The next day, same Marine, same type of

> situation, a different story. The young Marine and his cover man enter

 

> a room with two wounded insurgents.

One

> lies on the floor in puddle of blood, another against the

> wall. A reporter and his camera survey the wreckage inside, and in the

> background can be heard the voice of a Marine, "He's moving, he's

moving!"

> The pop of a rifle is heard, and the insurgent against the wall is now

dead.

>

> Minutes, hours later, the scene is aired on national television, and

> the Marine is being held for commiting a war crime. Unlawful killing.

>

> And now, another Marine has the possibility of being burned at the

> stake

for

> protecting the life of his

> brethren. His family now wrings their hands in grief, tears streaming

> down their face. Brother, should I have been in your boots, i too

> would have done the same.

>

> For those of you who don't know, we Marines, Band of Brothers,

> Jarheads, Leathernecks, etc., do not fight because we think it is

> right, or think it is wrong. We are here for the man to our left, and

> the man to our right. We choose to give our lives so that the man or

> woman next to us can go home and see their husbands, wives, children,

> friends and families.

>

> For those of you who sit on your couches in front of your television,

> and choose to condemn this man's actions, I have but one thing to say

> to you. Get out of you recliner, lace up my boots, pick up a rifle,

> leave your family behind and join me. See what I've seen, walk where I

 

> have walked. To those of you who support us, my sincerest gratitude.

> You keep

us

> alive.

>

> I am a Marine currently doing his second tour in Iraq. These are my

opinions

> and mine alone. They do not represent those of the Marine Corps or of

> the

US

> military, or any other.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> LCPL Schmidt

> USMC

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Absolutely the best post I've seen about this situation on any board. You've got it RIGHT, JHJim

[yall]

And so the debate continues...

 

I'm not going to jump into the fire here, because I have not idea what the facts are.  (I haven't seen the video, nor do I ever intend on seeing it.)

The thing that pisses me off is all the "rah rah rah" type of people still saying that people who were against the war are against the troops.

 

For all you guys... do a google search on DP "Depleted Uranium" and see how supportive we are of our troops.  It's a crying shame.

 

Educate yourself with thte facts and then, formulate your own  opinion using your God given brain.  Don't let them force feed crap down your throat.

 

DEPLETED URANIUM has the potential to make Agent Orange look like nothing.  Plus... we know about it BEFOREHAND.

 

If you Gung-ho types want to support your troops... look into this stevestojan.

 

And as for the Marine and the man he killed... May God bless both of their souls.

124868[/snapback]

 

I'm not sure how thie relates to the topic at hand, but I'll bite.

 

I was in the Cav and worked closely with alot of tankers and other scouts that were in Gulf 1 and were exposed to plenty of depleted uranium rounds. None that I can remember had any symptoms of excessive radiological exposure.

 

That isn't to say that there is no danger there, but the military is a dangerous place to be, even in times of relative peace.

 

As far as being against a war and how it relates to supporting troops, if a war is said to be immoral, then how can you "support" troops that are, in your mind, acting immorally?

 

They are just following orders, much like the Nazi's. You either support them and the job they have to do, or you do not. Plain and simple.

[Bad Things]

Yes, may god bless that scum sucking terrorist's soul.  I'm suprised you even through in the Marine, but then again, you probably feel he needs it for the "heinous crimes against man" he committed right?

124994[/snapback]

 

Nice! very nice.

Ah... how war brings out the best in everybody.

 

For me to get blasted by a bigot like you for simply asking God for mercy, is incredible.

I pray for your ignorance too.

[Alaska Darin]

Nice!  very nice.

Ah... how war brings out the best in everybody.

 

For me to get blasted by a bigot like you for simply asking God for mercy, is incredible.

I pray for your ignorance too.

125428[/snapback]

Pray for him to know the difference between "through" and "threw" - he needs it.

[John from Riverside]

Of couse I signed this. Most of you will never understand what it's like to be in this young Marines situation. To call this a "War Crime" is purely idiotic. I do this so you don't have to. So before you sit back and judge what we do then consider signing a fuggin contract and join me. If you have not the intestinal fortitude then just as we give you the freedom of speech to voice your opinion, we also give you the right to shut the !@#$ up.... :I starred in Brokeback Mountain:

125113[/snapback]

 

USMC....

 

Being a 10 year vet myself....and having served in the first gulf war.....I agree with you.

 

But lets try to keep in mind that the people making those comments have not been in our shoes.....they dont know what it is like......and the the fact is we are fighting for their right of free speech....even if we fill it is wrong.

 

So agree to disagree with them and protect yourself any way possible. Any day you can call the family at the end is a good day

[Bad Things]

As far as being against a war and how it relates to supporting troops, if a war is said to be immoral, then how can you "support" troops that are, in your mind, acting immorally?

 

They are just following orders, much like the Nazi's. You either support them and the job they have to do, or you do not. Plain and simple.

125150[/snapback]

In NO way is it that plain and simply. That's just what wartime wants you to believe.

It's not that cut and dry.

 

I know 4 guys that are there right now, including two of my nephews. (Another one of my friends sons is going back there next month.)

Do you think that I am against them???

No.

 

3 of the 4 DO NOT want to be there. They think the whole thing is a crock.

The other one (greg) is very proud to be there.

Do you think I'm against him?

No.

Greg simply believed and continues to believe all the hype and propaganda that got us there in the first place. First, that Iraq was an imminent threat to our and our families lives. He now believes that we've always been there to liberate the Iraqiis in the name of freedom and has forgotten about WMD's and Bin Laden.

 

It is with Bush and the rest of the Liars that I have a problem with.

It is also with many of the idiots that blindly support this crap without even TRYing to see why most of the world is against it. (many lurk here in the ppp board)

Not only that, but they sure love to through around the fact on what great Christians they are.

 

Listen... my own Grandfather was killed in WWII.

As a f'ing Nazi.

I was told that he was a good man who, unfortunatly believed everything that his authorities lied to him about ... signed up without questioning and got his ass killed in Russia.

Do I hate my grandfather?

No.

Do I hate the people that lied to him?

You betcha.

[DeeRay]

In NO way is it that plain and simply. That's just what wartime wants you to believe.

It's not that cut and dry.

 

I know 4 guys that are there right now, including two of my nephews. (Another one of my friends sons is going back there next month.)

Do you think that I am against them???

No.

 

3 of the 4 DO NOT want to be there. They think the whole thing is a crock.

The other one (greg) is very proud to be there.

Do you think I'm against him?

No.

Greg simply believed and continues to believe all the hype and propaganda that got us there in the first place. First, that Iraq was an imminent threat to our and our families lives. He now believes that we've always been there to liberate the Iraqiis in the name of freedom and has forgotten about WMD's and Bin Laden.

 

It is with Bush and the rest of the Liars that I have a problem with.

It is also with many of the idiots that blindly support this crap without even TRYing to see why most of the world is against it. (many lurk here in the ppp board)

Not only that, but they sure love to through around the fact on what great Christians they are.

 

Listen... my own Grandfather was killed in WWII.

As a f'ing Nazi.

I was told that he was a good man who, unfortunatly believed everything that his authorities lied to him about ... signed up without questioning and got his ass killed in Russia.

Do I hate my grandfather?

No.

Do I hate the people that lied to him?

You betcha.

 

 

This whole thing is a mess. I have my own ideas why we're there... I think after 9/11 it is logical to assume that with saddam's presence, there was (if there already wasn't) going to be some sort of alliance (covert or otherwise) with Saddam and AlQaida. I mean he was already aiding and abetting hamas homicide bombers and their families as well as giving sanctuary to Abu Nidal. The whole world knew that the economic and industrial viability hinged on the middleast stability. With China, Japan, India, the US, Russia, and Europe all becoming more globlized economically and all competeing for the same oil supply, the middleast had to be stablized. But, the three big players in this... germany, france, and russia saw this as an opportunity to take care of themselves and "stick it to the US" by bedding down with saddam... oil for money. And scumbag Putin will use the terrorist card when it's good for him to use it and only then.

 

So basically, the US is in Iraq for ecomic reasons as well as 9/11. Everyone remembers the economic losses we suffered from that single event and we will be paying for it for years to come... 9/11 is the single most world defining event of my lifetime... and if a similar incident like it happens to us again, we are really going to be in sad shape as a country.

 

Suffice to say...I thank your nephews and friends for being there. In defending this country's ideals we shed a lot of blood. we didn't have to go into Europe and liberate those countries from Germany... the only issue we had to address was with Japan over Pearl Harbor and leave it at that. What would today's world be like if we hadn't helped Europe? We tend to look only at the moment and not 10-25 years down the road.

 

God Bless

[phxbacker]

Signed it with PRIDE !!!! Our soldiers are HEROES ... !!!!!!!!

 

I would have shot him twice to make sure !!!!!!

[nonprophet]

I was a Marine Corps infantryman and can tell you that military operations in urban terrain (MOUT) is probably the most dangerous environment for waging war. In one exercise, I accidentally "shot" one of my own guys. That incident still bothers me.

 

The Marines fighting in Fallujah right now are under incredible stress and I can't blame them for adopting a "shoot first" mentality, especially given the insurgents' demonstrated willingness to use white flags and wounded people as ambush lures.

 

The Marine who shot the wounded man in the head will probably get a court martial and its goal will be to determine if he acted reasonably or not. I can only hope that political pressure doesn't force the Marine Corps to make an example of him even if it is found that he was acting reasonably.

[Alaska Darin]

I was a Marine Corps infantryman and can tell you that military operations in urban terrain (MOUT) is probably the most dangerous environment for waging war. In one exercise, I accidentally "shot" one of my own guys. That incident still bothers me.

 

The Marines fighting in Fallujah right now are under incredible stress and I can't blame them for adopting a "shoot first" mentality, especially given the insurgents' demonstrated willingness to use white flags and wounded people as ambush lures.

 

The Marine who shot the wounded man in the head will probably get a court martial and its goal will be to determine if he acted reasonably or not. I can only hope that political pressure doesn't force the Marine Corps to make an example of him even if it is found that he was acting reasonably.

125571[/snapback]

Thank goodness it was MILES gear, huh? I've seen that happen in training more times than I care to. Of course, that's why we do it.

 

I agree with your last paragraph wholeheartedly.

[Ramius]

damn straight i signed it, its friggin war, this marine did what needed to be done...and i hope he'd do it again given the same circumstances...

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

That is where you are wrong. It doesn't advocate abandoning the rule of law.

 

The law plainly states that the Marine was well within his rights to shoot the fighter. The Geneva convention doesn't apply to them.

 

He shot a combatant in a combat theater. No flag on the play.

124698[/snapback]

 

 

I agree with the sense of things in the petition as it portrays the facts as I understand them. However, as many have pointed out the understanding of the facts for those of us who aren't there can be pretty limited or just plain wrong.

 

In my view the rule of law is embodied in the military not following the whim of public opinion (be it in favor of the war or against it) the rule of law means that a properly vested military tribunal reviews cases of controversy and dispute (which this case certainly is) and makes a finding based on the facts (better collected and probably understood by those who were there) and by assiduously applying the rule of law make the appropriate finding in this case.

 

As Darin from Alaska has said, based on the "facts" which I have heard. I doubt amy court of law finds against the is trooper. However, the petition uses specific language such as:

 

It is my opinion that NOTHING should happen to this American Marine. He should be returned to his unit or be given an honorable discharge.

 

Having an opinion either way is what America is about, but the action step advocated in this position of NOTHING happening to him and returning him to his unit or giving him an honorable discharge is in my view what eventually should happen to him, but I think that the safety of our troops and our American ideals are best served by the trooper having this happen to him after review of this case by a military court of justice which if it finds reason to do so may punish him in whatever manner rather than follow public opinion.

 

It is exactly in the face of lawless and inhuman acts like those of the terrorists that we should be resolute in sticking to the rule and process of the law. I'm proud of this trooper for being brave enough to make a sacrifice for me and mine (particularly when our civilian leaders have said the great "sacrifice" we can make for the troopers is to shop). I'll be even prouder if the next sacrifice the trooper makes is to resolutely stand before a military tribunal, defend his actions and let the chips fall where they may.

 

The petition seems to me to say that we are of the opinion that this process of justice should be short-circuited because we know the facts and the terrorists have abandoned the rule of law. My sense is that what makes us different is that we refuse to abandon the rule and process of the law regardless of what the terrorists do.

[yall]

I agree with the sense of things in the petition as it portrays the facts as I understand them.  However, as many have pointed out the understanding of the facts for those of us who aren't there can be pretty limited or just plain wrong.

 

In my view the rule of law is embodied in the military not following the whim of public opinion (be it in favor of the war or against it) the rule of law means that a properly vested military tribunal reviews cases of controversy and dispute (which this case certainly is) and makes a finding based on the facts (better collected and probably understood by those who were there) and by assiduously applying the rule of law make the appropriate finding in this case.

 

As Darin from Alaska has said, based on the "facts" which I have heard. I doubt amy court of law finds against the is trooper.  However, the petition uses specific language such as:

 

It is my opinion that NOTHING should happen to this American Marine. He should be returned to his unit or be given an honorable discharge.

 

Having an opinion either way is what America is about, but the action step advocated in this position of NOTHING happening to him and returning him to his unit or giving him an honorable discharge is in my view what eventually should happen to him, but I think that the safety of our troops and our American ideals are best served by the trooper having this happen to him after review of this case by a military court of justice which if it finds reason to do so may punish him in whatever manner rather than follow public opinion.

 

It is exactly in the face of lawless and inhuman acts like those of the terrorists that we should be resolute in sticking to the rule and process of the law.  I'm proud of this trooper for being brave enough to make a sacrifice for me and mine (particularly when our civilian leaders have said the great "sacrifice" we can make for the troopers is to shop).  I'll be even prouder if the next sacrifice the trooper makes is to resolutely stand before a military tribunal, defend his actions and let the chips fall where they may.

 

The petition seems to me to say that we are of the opinion that this process of justice should be short-circuited because we know the facts and the terrorists have abandoned the rule of law.  My sense is that what makes us different is that we refuse to abandon the rule and process of the law regardless of what the terrorists do.

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Fair enough.

[Guest Guest]

Marines like sausage.