Guest dog14787 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Bill Polian supposedly had a run in with Ralphs daughter in the draft room, harsh words were spoken and I doubt its anything Ralph Wilson is willing to forgive or forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefan66 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Doesn't matter that he was let go when he was. Who knows how long he would have lasted anyway, and who knows how he would have handled the salary cap mess that was Bruce, Andre and Thurman. FWIW, I have the utmost respect for the man. He is just a fantastic GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Thurman also mentioned the Rusty Jones thing as well, saying that it was a huge mistake to replace him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoner7 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 On February 4, 1993, after the Bills had appeared in their 3rd straight Super Bowl, Bill Polian was fired as general manager. Polian wasn't fired because he wasn't doing a good job, he was fired because he didn't get along with treasurer, Jeff Littmann, for reasons unknown to all except those close to owner Ralph Wilson, Littmann and Polian himself. In his closing press conference, Bill Polian said of the team that he built, "They're a very special group of men. Cherish them, you will not see their like again." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Polian You see, Polian was wrong. There is a group very much like them playing in Indy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
commish95 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 I agree, but looking back it is hard to believe Peyton has already been in this league for 12 seasons. He is still probably the tops in the game, but will he start showing wear and tear anytime soon? I agree. Peyton wont be playing when he's 44 like Farve but He has a good 6-7 years in his game left. Outside of yesterday (3 times) he is very rarely being hit. Sure anything can happen but his Line is getting built back up where he will be unsackable during most games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Butler left because he had already planned to...he was fired with a few weeks left in his contract because he refused to negotiate a new contract with Ralph. Word is that his wife wanted to leave Buffalo long before and there were even rumors of tampering by the Chargers. AJ Smith left because he had his stuck in Butler's rearRead Felser's book The Birth of the New NFL You'll see a lot of why he's in the Hall of Fame Philster, Your twist on the Butler saga is a little distorted. There are more than a few reasons why Butler was going to leave after the expiration of his contract. When Butler was negotiating a new deal the owner low balled him so much compared to the going rate for a GM that Butler decided that he wasn't going to renew his contract under any circumstances. When the owner was asked why he offered Butler such a low budget contract the owner responded that he was "merely" a personnel guy. When Butler left he made a number of critical comments to the effect that no one knows what it is like to work for a boss such as Wilson. The owner was constantly interfering and constantly questioning what he was doing. The tiresome interference was a factor in Butler's decision to leave. Your comments about the possible tampering and conflict of interest of the San Diego Chargers do ring true. When Butler left there was an immediate signing with the Chargers. I suspect that Butler decided that he was not going to renew his contract with the Bills and had his agent work out a surreptitious agreement to join the Chargers after his contract expired. With respect to A.J. Smith when Ralph Wilson fired Butler Wilson told A.J. Smith to take over. (The contract was almost over anyway.) Smith told Wilson no, that he wasn't going to be disloyal to Butler. Wilson then summarily fired A.J. Smith. He then joined Butler with the Chargers. Again, I strongly suspect that A.J. Smith was in on a prior agreement to join the Chargers before he was fired. What all these interactions demonstrate is that the shape of the organization and its staffing is the result of the owner's decisions. Over the past decade the Bills have been one of the worst performing franchises in the NFL. The product on the field has been excruciatingly bad. The prospects for the future are dismal. There is a saying: The success of any organization starts at the top. For the Bills it is most evident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 If Bill Polian had been allowed to stay, there is no doubt in my mind that we would have had continued success and the last 16 years would have been very different -- especially the past 9 years. Peter, I understand your view, and I agree with you. But the departure of Polian was probably inevitable. Polian and Littman had conflicting agendas. One person was focused on winning and the other was focused on the bottom line. These different agendas couldn't be reconciled. The owner was always going to favor the Littman position in the long run because Ralph's priority meshed with Littman's perspective. Littman represented Ralph's interest more than the team's interest. Littman is still with the organization. There should be no surprise that Ralph has kept his financial guardian inside of the organization for all these years, which include the dismal decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Philster, Your twist on the Butler saga is a little distorted. There are more than a few reasons why Butler was going to leave after the expiration of his contract. When Butler was negotiating a new deal the owner low balled him so much compared to the going rate for a GM that Butler decided that he wasn't going to renew his contract under any circumstances. When the owner was asked why he offered Butler such a low budget contract the owner responded that he was "merely" a personnel guy. When Butler left he made a number of critical comments to the effect that no one knows what it is like to work for a boss such as Wilson. The owner was constantly interfering and constantly questioning what he was doing. The tiresome interference was a factor in Butler's decision to leave. Your comments about the possible tampering and conflict of interest of the San Diego Chargers do ring true. When Butler left there was an immediate signing with the Chargers. I suspect that Butler decided that he was not going to renew his contract with the Bills and had his agent work out a surreptitious agreement to join the Chargers after his contract expired. With respect to A.J. Smith when Ralph Wilson fired Butler Wilson told A.J. Smith to take over. (The contract was almost over anyway.) Smith told Wilson no, that he wasn't going to be disloyal to Butler. Wilson then summarily fired A.J. Smith. He then joined Butler with the Chargers. Again, I strongly suspect that A.J. Smith was in on a prior agreement to join the Chargers before he was fired. What all these interactions demonstrate is that the shape of the organization and its staffing is the result of the owner's decisions. Over the past decade the Bills have been one of the worst performing franchises in the NFL. The product on the field has been excruciatingly bad. The prospects for the future are dismal. There is a saying: The success of any organization starts at the top. For the Bills it is most evident. True the Bills were somewhat successful post Polian with Butler and A.J. Smith. However Butler and CO could have just been riding the fact that the team had the left overs from the Polian era. Either way what Buter and CO have done in San Diego (Consitantly top team that has had super bowl talent and has developed 2 QBs compared to our 0 in that time span) has shown that it was a mistake to let them go. Either way since 99 we have just not been very well run and have let go of 1 great regime and 1 good regime and since it has been God aweful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Philster Posted November 2, 2009 Share Posted November 2, 2009 Philster, Your twist on the Butler saga is a little distorted. There are more than a few reasons why Butler was going to leave after the expiration of his contract. When Butler was negotiating a new deal the owner low balled him so much compared to the going rate for a GM that Butler decided that he wasn't going to renew his contract under any circumstances. When the owner was asked why he offered Butler such a low budget contract the owner responded that he was "merely" a personnel guy. For one thing, it's called contract negotiations...you always offer low...the other guy wants high and you come to a compromise. For another, there were aspects of a GM's job that Butler didn't do...like contract negotiations with free agents and league meetings. Butler wanted to be left to doing the personnel job but be paid like he was doing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChasBB Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 This is just so sad on so many different levels. 1. Why in the world does a professional GM call the daughter of the owner a name like that? It's one thing to think it, but it's quite another to actually voice the thought. For all of Polian's many fine qualities, this was just plain STUPID! There must have been several other ways to handle Ralph's daughter's unsolicited input besides calling her that. 2. Why did Ralph allow the situation to exist to begin with that would have his daughter agitating his GM in this way. Polian had his job to do and he shouldn't have had to deal with Linda. Now, from what I've heard, she was a fine scout, but Polian was still the decision maker and this fact should have been respected by all involved parties. Any final calls on a player pick should have been Polian's. For the situation to evolve to the point where he became so agitated as to call Linda a name like that, it must mean that she was insisting on one direction or another as opposed to merely providing her input and moving on. Being the owner's daughter certainly didn't qualify her as the decision maker. 3. It's sad that Ralph felt he had to side with his treasurer in a dispute. Did his treasurer ever nearly bring a Super Bowl championship to Buffalo? Polian damn near did and probably would have given the opportunity to stay on. Ralph has always been a "bottom-line" guy and this is yet one more illustration of that fact. What an unfortunate situation all the way around. And the real sufferers are us Bills fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChasBB Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 For one thing, it's called contract negotiations...you always offer low...the other guy wants high and you come to a compromise.For another, there were aspects of a GM's job that Butler didn't do...like contract negotiations with free agents and league meetings. Butler wanted to be left to doing the personnel job but be paid like he was doing more. Yes, but the initial offer must at least be respectful. If it is not then it's going to kill the negotiations before they get started. Butler probably just wanted out anyhow for a change of scenery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChasBB Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Doesn't matter that he was let go when he was. Who knows how long he wouldhave lasted anyway, and who knows how he would have handled the salary cap mess that was Bruce, Andre and Thurman. FWIW, I have the utmost respect for the man. He is just a fantastic GM. He's handled the salary cap all these years just fine in Indy. He would have handled it fine in Buffalo, too. He probably would have had to make a sacrifice, but he also would have found decent replacement talent if his hand was forced in that way. He would have been just as successful here for the past 16-17 years as he has been with Carolina & Indy. Given that he still has a home here, the Buffalo job also probably would have been his 1st and only choice provided all this other crap didn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Philster Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Yes, but the initial offer must at least be respectful. If it is not then it's going to kill the negotiations before they get started. Butler probably just wanted out anyhow for a change of scenery. Well, like I already pointed out, word was that Butler's wife wanted out of Buffalo for a while. As I recall, when Butler got Ralph's initial offer, which was a raise over what he was getting, he didn't respond to it at all...even to say it was insulting. So his mind was likely made up before the season. So basically, both of these two great GMs were lame ducks their last years here...Polian because he was fired before the season but allowed to finish the year...and Butler because he had already decided not to re-sign with the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Bill Polian never "would not return Tom Condon's calls...thats bull ****"....what was true...and rings very ture to history...is Polian wanted to lock Wilford up before his contract expired....Ralph and Littman wished to let the contract play out and see what happens in free agency....Ralph (that f%%$ idiot) gets screwed by a slick move by the Colts who offered Wilford a contract the Bills could not match....and Ralph & Littman BEGGED the NFL to let them pay Wilford and keep him....but the NFL awarded Wilfords contract to Colts....POLIAN was right all along....and the same bumbling idiots who blewoff Rashad and Cousineau & Cribbs now lost Will Wolford at a critical time....The loss of Wilford hurt the Bills just enough where we went from being 7 pt favorites in Superbowl to being decided underdog..... I also asked Polian and he mentioned Littman killed a deal that would have sent DT Pierce Holt to Buffalo.... No Wilford...no Pierce Holt....no superbowl....but ralph can count his $$$$$ Will Wolford went to the Colts? All this time, I thought that he went to the Steelers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Philster Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Will Wolford went to the Colts? All this time, I thought that he went to the Steelers. Colts first...then he finished up with the Steelers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 All of you guys are right in why Polian was let go. And isn't it sad to see the success that all of those personnel men have had since they left Buffalo? Clearly, our success is related to Polian, the late John Butler, AJ Smith, Buddy Nix (who is back with the Bills) and the scouting staff at the time of all those Super Bowl greats. They squeezed the draft and obtained maximum value. Looking at the Bills draft on drafthistory.com, the Bills retained all of 6 players out of 50 drafted from the years 2000-2005. You simply cannot succeed with that record of failure. Would the Bills ever bring back Polian? I fear it would only be after Ralph's demise, and a Jim Kelly-led takeover of the team would Polian become involved again. It sucks to have to sit here in limbo waiting for something to be done about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChasBB Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I really think Ralph WANTS to win a Super Bowl and I said this several weeks ago, but he is simply incapable of it. He just does not have the competence to bring in the right person to run the operation. And if he somehow could stumble onto another Polian type of talent, he'd mess it up somehow like he did with Polian. At the end of the day, Ralph is a business man first, a football fan second. Not all owners are this way. The ones who continually field winners want a winner first-and-foremost, and then want it to be profitable. I don't think any franchise is LOSING money. The NFL is just too lucrative for the owners. So, why the hell not try to field a winner. How many millions of profit is enough? A winning team and a profitable team are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. They CAN co-exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 For one thing, it's called contract negotiations...you always offer low...the other guy wants high and you come to a compromise.For another, there were aspects of a GM's job that Butler didn't do...like contract negotiations with free agents and league meetings. Butler wanted to be left to doing the personnel job but be paid like he was doing more. Philster, The most important aspect of the GM's responsibility is the area of personnel. You are correct Butler was mostly focused on scouting. Without a doubt that should be the most important responsibility of a GM. Doing a good job assessing talent is the key element in fielding a quality team on the field. How have the Bills scouting department done since the departure of Polian and Butler? How has Butler/A.J. Smith done in San Diego compared to how the Bills personnel staff have done since their departure? The Chargers are consistent playoff performers; the Bills are an embarrassment on the field. Your point about Ralph was following normal contract negotiations with Butler doesn't hold water, at least to me. If one side of the negotiation is so out of line with the norm then there is little basis to negotiate over. Ralph Wilson, historically, is notorious for paying low salaries for his front office and coaching staff. Just look at the output? There shouldn't be any surprise why there has been a constant churning of coaches in this stumbling franchise. Your point about the owner splitting duties of the GM is correct. Because of the complexity of the cap it is not unusal to have a cap expert negotiate and structure the contracts. Oberdorf is still handling that responsibility for the Bills. Most teams have a cap specialist (finance person) to either do the work or advise the GM on how to structure the contracts. After John Butler left the Bills he described how intolerable it was to work for Ralph Wilson. The incessant interference and badgering over finances made his work environment oppressive. Whether Butler was fired or not is irrelevant. He wasn't going to continue to work for Wilson The owner has a right to run his franchise any way he wants to. He is the boss. Who he hires and who he fires are his decisions. The Bills organization is a reflection of the boss. The organization by any standard is in shambles. The record of the team over the past decade has them ranked 29 out of 32. The caliber of play, disregarding wins and losses, is a disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I agree, but looking back it is hard to believe Peyton has already been in this league for 12 seasons. He is still probably the tops in the game, but will he start showing wear and tear anytime soon? He'd have to get hit first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 I really think Ralph WANTS to win a Super Bowl and I said this several weeks ago, but he is simply incapable of it. He just does not have the competence to bring in the right person to run the operation. And if he somehow could stumble onto another Polian type of talent, he'd mess it up somehow like he did with Polian. At the end of the day, Ralph is a business man first, a football fan second. Not all owners are this way. The ones who continually field winners want a winner first-and-foremost, and then want it to be profitable. I don't think any franchise is LOSING money. The NFL is just too lucrative for the owners. So, why the hell not try to field a winner. How many millions of profit is enough? A winning team and a profitable team are NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. They CAN co-exist. Yeah, and I thought Ralph would have learned his lesson during those Super Bowl years. It takes money to make money. You invest in Kelly, Reed, Smith, Bennett, Thomas, Hull, Tasker, Talley and get out of the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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