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In March 2014 a coup d'état occurred in Ukraine, led by the ultranationalist organization Ukrainian National Revolutionary Front, which the recently formed government of Ukraine (in the aftermath of the Euromaidan) (Euromaidan had western, five eye, and Nato countries support) Seems every country in the world has different opinion of the Ukrainian "protest" and what led to the counter "protest" in Crimea Did they ever figure out who blew up the north stream pipeline? and in the big picture its kinda funny people talk about democracy in Ukraine when the current Ukraine government was formed by a coup and has since banned opposition parties and declared martial law. But I guess when they win (no one has defined what that is), they will just go back to standard elections. never mind the fact NATO declined their applications have been due to a lack of standards around voting, fraud and governement corruption. but now the WEF and the USA has embraced them with open arms (lots of our money) and speeches to joint sessions of congress.

I have no hope that every US dollar will be spent efficiently, and I hope that the current US Administration has the discipline to monitor these things, but again, I doubt it. Still, the Russian strategy was counting on two things: 1. A rapid takeover and occupation of Ukraine soil, and overthrow of the Ukraine regime. 2. A failure of NATO and the rest of the western world to be willing to hold the course in opposition. We are probably near the tipping point of the second hope, and I think we should commit to seeing it through. Russia is in a deep hurt. They can't do this forever. If we can hold on and continue to support them, in all reasonable military ways, we will end this. If not, we are bound to fight it again.

Soldiers fighting Russians have a new weapon. See what it can do Ukrainian troops are loving their new Polish "Krabs" artillery system - a high-tech GPS-directed artillery system that is more accurate and safer than the old Soviet era kit. CNN's Nic Robertson joins an artillery battery commander as he calls in fire on Russian positions. https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/08/11/ukraine-nato-weapon-polish-krabs-robertson-pkg-intl-ovn-hnk-vpx.cnn

I'm not sure of the implied viewpoint here. The $65b is their one year budget. It is not like US, NATO and other support is simply neutralizing that value. The Russian non nuclear military is being destroyed to a significant extend, and the cost Putin has strapped his country with extends way beyond one year's budget, as well as a tremendous brain drain and working demographic escape. Unless the tide is turned in his favor, this is going to cost the Russians a massive amount more than one year's military budget.

Of course. If we, (not me by the way), weren't willing to sign the NATO agreement we shouldn't have. We did as did about 30 other countries. You do not strike me as a guy who has any knowledge of this stuff, but for the class, let me post Article 5: " The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area." My view is that we abide by that agreement. My view is that we not send our troops into a death sentence. The Ukraine has separatists who want to be Russian. Those separatists should have been allowed to be part of their motherland without tying the rest of the world up in the dispute. This should have been worked out years ago.

NATO is communist? What garbage. People watch this trash?

So, like most wars our government has backed recently where things are said to be going great and then all the sudden. presto, not so great, if the unthinkable happens and the Russian's ultimately prevail then the people running the show in Washington and NATO need to explain why they blew smoke up everybody's backside with all the good news stories to the contrary.

So Putin is going to start WWIII by directly attacking a NATO country? And he’s going to do that so he can offload a few domestic criminals? Sure…sounds correct.

I certainly don't know what Putin thinks, I would just offer up the perspective that Russia has historically prioritized maintaining a buffer zone between Europe and itself: https://imrussia.org/en/analysis/3382-the-ballot,-not-the-bullet-russia’s-pursuit-of-a-geopolitical-buffer-zone. In this day and age, buffer zones should be unnecessary, thanks to nuclear weapons. But I agree with this article that Putin desires them for political purposes, to preserve his authoritarian form of government. No bordering a democracy whenever possible. He seized Crimea and supported the Donbas separatist movement in 2014 when Viktor Yanukovych was removed from power and a more democratic system took hold. Here's what he wanted the US and NATO to do to avoid the Ukraine invasion: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/26/us/politics/russia-demands-us-ukraine.html He wanted NATO and nuclear weapons out of all Eastern European countries. Preserving somewhat of a buffer zone but leaving these countries vulnerable to the Russian military. So, if Putin gets what he wants, a large number of bordering countries don't sleep at night fearing future authoritarian expansion. Since we didn't cave, he decided to take what he wants. Putin knows we're not willing to give him a buffer zone, because it entails giving land from democratic countries. We know he's at least bent on creating a buffer zone, at worst reconstituting the old empire. Until one side or the other is in a dire situation, what is there to talk about?

Most likely Trump would have given Russia assurances that Ukraine would not be added to NATO and the war would have been avoided and Ukraine would have gone on their merry way as an independent democracy and would not be engaged in a bloody and costly conflict. There would have been no sanctions and Europe and other impacted countries would not have been harmed. The inflation, and supply disruptions the world is experiencing would not have happened. But Biden won the election, brought back Victoria Nuland the official who engineered the Madian coup in 2014, to finish the job, refused to engage in any meaningful discussions, and flooded the region with arms. Then Russia invaded. And in April when parties like Turkey had brokered a peace settlement between Russia and Ukraine, Boris Johnson was dispatched to Kiev to deliver the message to Zelensky that the US and UK would not allow any truce or peace deal and the war would continue. And it goes on. So yeah, maybe it could have been avoided or at a minimum ended already. I should add, anyone thinking the main US interests are in supporting Ukrainian democracy was dropped on their head too many times. The US interest is to weaken Russia and maintain the uni polar world order both Moscow and Beijing and other countries threaten. Ukrainian blood and territory is just the proxy and acceptable sacrifice to support that goal.

From the limited reporting on the details out of the G7/NATO summit. it sounds like they would have to get back to a reasonable economic position coupled with reestablishing elections.

Alright Biden!! And people say he doesn't know what he os doing? Just see what this Trump supporter is saying: “But it is already clear that Russia’s fundamental concerns have been ignored,” Putin said. “NATO refers to the right of countries to choose freely, but you cannot strengthen someone’s security at the expense of others.”

Now that is a real piece of work, assuming of course it's true and everything works out like that. For everyone that isn't going to read Tibs tweet thread. The UK is supplying very advanced anti ship missiles that can strike Russian warships at anchor in Sebastopol. Since the Moskva was sunk, and the Turks closed off the Bosporus to warships, the remaining Russian vessels can't defend themselves from missiles. Meaning they can no longer blockade the port of Odessa. Meaning if NATO wanted to, they could escort Ukrainian grain shipments along coastal and west black sea routes. This would provide huge amounts of food back to global supply chains, meaning drastic price relief for all of Africa, and huge revenues for Ukraine. There's a few places where this could all go wrong, but it's a neat idea with a lot of upside for a lot of innocent people.

In the Ukraine Proxy War, What Price Victory? FTA: The bigger, more important question, however, is this: why are the Clinton-Obama-Biden Democrats trying to make the conflict in the Ukraine into a proxy war against Russia? Why, knowing of Putin's increasing desperation to finish the job, have they given him no diplomatic way out? Why instead have they pushed an obsolete NATO right up to his borders, when if there's one thing that makes Russians crazy it's territorial encroachment from the west? Just ask Napoleon how that worked out for him. The North Atlantic Treaty Organization won its war against the U.S.S.R. at the end of 1991 when the Soviet Union was dissolved on Christmas Day. Accordingly, it has no further reason for existence and should have been dissolved itself decades ago. As Eisenhower, the Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force in Europe, reported to the combined Allied chiefs of staff upon General Jodl's surrender: "The mission of this Allied Force was fulfilled at 0241, local time, May 7th, 1945." Short and sweet. But don't forget the exception to every rule: a bureaucracy, especially the demon child of the military-industrial complex, will never willingly commit suicide. And so NATO has staggered on, expanding rather than contracting, waving the Russian flag as a kind of bogeyman/talisman in order to keep its coffers full and its officers well-fed. The fact is that the Russians -- the Democrats' favorite allies right up to the minute they cast off Communism! -- needed to be maintained as a threat. And so, in the direct aftermath of her 2016 election loss, Hillary Clinton and her flying monkeys in the media concocted the so-called "Russian collusion" hoax, which is only just beginning to finally unravel in the courts now. In the meantime, the Biden forces, hell-bent on finishing the job of "fundamental transformation" of the country that Barack Hussein Obama was just too lazy to complete, are doing everything they can to provoke a shooting war with Putin's Russia. "A weakened Russia" is one of the administration's explicit goals, as the current secretary of defense, Lloyd Austin, has declared. And while the administration has denied it, it does appear that the U.S. has been sharing intelligence regarding the targeting of Russian military commanders and other high-value targets -- which is an overt act of war and no doubt is regarded as such by Putin and his officers. And that is very dangerous, especially since they have nowhere else to go. America is now flirting with disaster as it engages with a wounded, nuclear-armed bear that won't hesitate to use theater or tactical nukes if it feels an existential threat. And why wouldn't it? It's seen this movie before. Even Jill Biden is currently kicking sand in Putin's face. Meanwhile, here at home, the U.S. is cratering almost as surely as the Soviet Union, riven by irreconcilable domestic moral and political differences; all of its principal constitutional edifices under attack by the Left, including the Supreme Court; the economy circling the drain; the supply chain thoroughly disrupted by an outrageous medical alarum bordering on a malignant hoax; our woke military emasculated; and our civic faith in almost every institution destroyed. Meanwhile, a gerontological elite that rivals in its longevity the Struldbruggs in Swift's Gulliver's Travels continues to heedlessly shuffle its way toward disaster. So what will it take to bring America to either its senses or its knees? What does victory look like in this pointless war? In 1945 Soviet soldiers waved the hammer and sickle over the ruins of Berlin. In 1989, I stood at the crumbling Wall between the Brandenburg Gate and the Reichstag, and somehow wound up with some Grepo's cap as a souvenir. Luckily, the Cold War never quite turned hot. But if this war -- Biden's War -- goes nuclear, what will be left to grasp? A handful of radioactive dust? Pray that somebody in Washington comes to his senses, and soon -- but don't count on it. https://the-pipeline.org/the-column-in-the-ukraine-proxy-war-what-price-victory/

Rubio: ‘Putin’s Not the Same Guy He Was Five Years Ago’; ‘Would Rather Have WWIII than Be Humiliated’ by the West Friday on “The Hugh Hewitt Show,” Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) warned that Russian President Vladimir Putin’s risk calculus has changed over the years. Rubio asserted that “Putin’s not the same guy he was five years ago” and “would rather have World War III than be humiliated” by the West.” He added that Putin, now willing to take more risks, “poses real dangers.” “[I] can tell you that there is great danger for two reasons,” Rubio outlined. “The first is you now have a, you know, 70% of the Russian military power is active and engaged and deployed very close to NATO forces. So, the risk of miscalculation or, you know, a lot of the, for example, these countries are now providing planes to Ukraine. So, it would not take much for a Russian anti-air element to confuse a Romanian jet or a Polish jet with maybe one from Ukraine and shoot it down. And suddenly, you’ve got a conflict.” https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2022/03/04/rubio-putins-not-the-same-guy-he-was-five-years-ago-would-rather-have-wwiii-than-be-humiliated-by-the-west/ Woke cancel culture and probably covid has emboldened him. That and the West's dependency on his oil and gas. We have no clue what we're doing.

That’s where you’re wrong. I’m not talking about the US doing anything on its own. If NATO cannot stand up for something like the current situation then what good is it? This started as a talking point premise that the Ukraine wanted to join NATO. Well if this is the price of membership then it’s probably not worth it! Again Mr Adams, step back and look at this. This is what the free world does when a country is attacked? Really? This is it?

Ah yes, this is NATO's fault. We made Ukraine start this war. Just needed to quote this for posterity. You are nucking futs. So what? You want us to drive our military in to start WW3? Since we're having the conversation here, I'll ask it again here. Can someone link me to the speech where Churchill called Hitler savvy and a genius?

Ukraine troops and civilians keep open line of communication through satellites. Huge We have don who inspired nato to increase the budget over his four years by over 20 percent and a guy who padded the wallets of Russia with the gas pipeline. Money that is being used to finance an illegal war. Facts

If it was launched by the US or NATO if would be an act of war. I'm not sure how the Russians would retaliate, but I'm sure they would initially take it out on Ukraine as a message that such aggression from a third party would be counterproductive. The thing is that there would be better options. A cruise missile doesn't have that big of a warhead. Air launched cruise missiles are more effective- bigger warhead since less rocket is needed. For all their talk, I am surprised and disappointed that the locals haven't used some kind of guerilla tactics against it. If they had any missile capability it would be very simple to hit. If they have no missiles, though I'm sure the Russians are guarding it, there has to be some point where they could do some damage with improvised weapons. If another country was serious about hitting it, and was willing to commit an act of war and risk the consequences, it would make more sense to do something bigger than a pin prick action like a cruise missile, which could be cleaned up in a matter of hours.. On that note, the Russians have a very sophisticated air defense capability which is though to have some ability to defend against cruise missiles. That is if they have it operating, which I'm not sure of, but we would know from signal intel if they did.

"China and Russia have been strengthening their economic, diplomatic and military ties for years. Mr. Xi and Mr. Putin met 37 times as national leaders before their latest conclave in Beijing. The ambitious joint statement that the two nations issued during that meeting alarmed American and European officials, especially because it was the first time China had explicitly sided with Russia on issues concerning NATO and European security. European leaders have denounced China and Russia since then. Representative Mike Gallagher, Republican of Wisconsin and a member of the House Intelligence Committee, said he was not familiar with the intelligence on discussions between Russia and China over Ukraine, but Beijing’s support of Moscow was clear. “The Chinese support all of Putin’s narrative to blame the West for provoking Russia,” Mr. Gallagher said. “I see no change in the Chinese views on Russia. They remain in a de facto alliance against the West at this point.” ....

The media is trying, but it's not just America's decision: it's NATO's and they're not going to war over it.

I see one person here advocating US military involvement in Ukraine and few people advocating for it in the media. Turn down the hype machine. I am a firm believer in the evils of the military industrial complex but ours and NATO's current position of restraint is firm. It may be tested by Russian actions in Ukraine and out of it. We will see. What are you 12? Stop tagging people moran. If you post something worthy of response, people will respond to it.

In any war there is a lot of psyops What keeps the war going is Putin's fear of Ukraine joining NATO

Largely agree. If the USA and Europe are actually waging economic warfare against Russia they would block oil and natural gas exports from Russia. They are not. Russian energy exports to the USA and Europe continue. Russia is not exporting energy on the 'good credit' of the EU/USA/NATO during a war, where those same countries 'condemn them' in the media. If a commodity is being exported, then a financial instrument remains in place to facilitate trade, despite what the Main Stream Media says. If a loophole exists for energy exports why isn't this being reported? Wouldn't the Russian oligarchs have access to these instruments of trade and banking too? It is naive and laughable that the Russian economy is being weakened, while energy exports, that fund 30-50% of the Russian Government budget continue.

I spent two and a half years in the Pacific Fleet Adversaries after sea duty on Kitty Hawk. Graduated rom TopGun as an adversary instructor, the "bad" guys who actually brief, lead a d debrief those sorties that people saw in the movie. Flew against every US airplane, and some foreign ones, like Saudi F-15's and many Canadian detachments. We all had lecture responsibilities. I taught Soviet and US air to air missiles and Soviet SAM systems in use at the time. I can assure you, I can look at this with a cold and dispassionate focus. What would get me emotional is that if US/NATO policy, already announced, is changed because of what clueless ratings grabbers emotionally rant about on ignorant talk shows, because in order to minimize death to our guys, those decisions would have needed to have been made a month ago by sober, knowledgeable, objective, responsible people. Whatever you think, or whatever you call me is of absolutely no consequence.