OGTEleven

Mickey, No offense, but I stopped reading after the part where you asked for sources, studies, etc..... You always ask for that crap but never provide it yourself. You call your beliefs widely accepted and leave it at that. While writing this response I decided to read the rest of your post...... Your Gallup poll is completely irrelevant because it offers no comparison to the population before classes were being taught ( among other reasons). I know what I see with my eyes every day, and I have zero ax to grind with Darwin or God, so you can call me stupid all you want, I don't care. Your 1,2,3 example puts words in my mouth in such an incredibly arrogant fashion, I can't believe you have the gaul to parade around this thread calling other people arrogant. I explain what I mean and you call that dumb and ask for studies. So I guess I get my choice of being A - A bible thumping paranoid or B - Stupid I'll take B. Did you ever at any point in this conversation allow for the remote possibility that the way evolution is being taught is in some small way imperfect? You may want to actually give some thought to what other people post here before you respond to them telling them how they're stupid. I have several other personal observations I could make that would back my assertion, but if I had 100, it seems to me that you'd try to pick them apart one by one rather than open your mind. I'll spare myself the picking. You may also want to make some observations rather than citing those of other people. It's the scientific thing to do.

If you don't hate the dolphins enough, that is your problem, not mine. Personally, I don't eat tuna unless it's caught in a net that also kills dolphins, and hopefully a lot of them. As for the other stuff, we'll have to agree to disagree. In my view, christians and other groups have without question reacted irrationally to evolution and other ideas infringing on religion (at least in the way they are taught). But in my view, it is a reaction, the inertia has come from the other direction. The Darwin fish (and other things btw, this was just one example), may be an equal and opposite irrational reaction ( or re-reaction) but it looks more like taunting to me.

IMHO you have the assaultor and the assaultee flip flopped. What does a fish on a car say about Darwinism? Nothing whatsoever. It is a reference to a story about Jesus from the Bible. This story has zero to do with evolution or even creation. The Darwin fish is a direct mockery of Jesus and his believers. There can be no denying that. Evolution class can and does create doubts about the very existence of God (not just creation) even though evolution itself creates no such doubts about God and only limited doubts about how the story of creation is described. The schools must see these results, but they do nothing to change them. Religious teachings of any kind are completely banned from public schools. Who is under assault? Warning: The next paragraph will make some participants in this thread roll their eyes and laugh. I consider myself completely objective in this whole matter. Why? Because I have faith that does not depend on an aluminum fish of either variety. Although I admire things both religious and scientific and would ideally love to learn everything about both, I do not feel required to pit them against each other. As far as I can see an avowed atheist and science geek should have the same opinion. So should a truly and wholly religious person that cares nothing for science. Both science and religion, at their core, are in search of truth. If you ask me whether I think ID should be taught in scince class my answer is limited to one word. No. I do however feel that the "scientific" community seems reluctant to apply their own standards on themselves. If a scientist does not want to measure results and improve a process, then they are either a bad scientist or just someone disguised as a scientist.

Personally I do not take it very seriously at all. I find it laughable. I have faith. It is too strong to be swayed by some moron with a superior attitude and a piece of aluminum that has glue on the back of it. I think some people (note I said some) that have the Jesus fish on their cars have weak faith that they perceive to be strong. I think some Darwin sticker people like to mock others because of thier own superior "grip on reality" which in actuality is also quite weak.

You are misunderstanding item #2. It should read: There are many people leaving class thinking evolution disproves God. The bumper sticker thingy clearly states: I believe in Darwin's theory therefore God does not exist. That message is as plain as day.

We were writing at the same time. see above your last post.

I don't see people with "string theory fish", just Darwin fish, hence the problem with evolution class, not physics class. If I saw string theory fish, I'd be ranting about physics. The fault with the educator must lie in some level of cursory teaching. It should be simple to reconcile God (or at least the possibility) with Darwin, yet thousands can't. They have such trouble that they feel the need to mock others beliefs. (Evidently they don't understand that they are only mocking Jesus, but whatever. I doubt they think Darwin reconciles with Allah or Yaweh either). It is not the responsibility of the educator to do the reconciliation, and religious leaders that also make the two mutually exclusive have fault as well. I see these two topics as largely unconnected (religion and Darwin) but people are leaving evolution class connecting the two tightly. That's not good. I believe in God but I would not want people leaving class thinking that God tinkers with everyones DNA every day to get a desired result or that Darwin was an idiot. I'd be ranting just as hard against that if it were happening.

Where is evolution taught primarily? High school. There are thousands and thousands of those stickers all over the roads, yet there is no connection to the schools where Darwin is taught? By that logic, why teach anything at all? Kids will just pick up calculus on the street. Certainly some of the stickers are from people just being wise-@$$es, some are from people that have done independent study and feel superior enough to mock others, but certainly at least a decent proportion must have picked up an impression that God/Darwin are mutually exclusive from their evolution class. If there is nothing done in schools to offset this incorrect impression, isn't there something wrong with that? For years, nothing has been done but heel digging. Now, some believers are trying to combat this in a foolish way. I don't support the idea but understand its origin. The "scientists" simply refuse to look at the results of their teachings and try to adjust in any way at all. That is not what scientists are supposed to do. I don't see how someone can say it is imperative that something be taught, but not care if it is being taught in a way that leads to true understanding. I don't want my kids thinking that since 2 + 2 = 4, all gorillas can fly. If kids came out of math class thinking this, the math teachers would probably try to correct it.

The "scientists" are pumping out a bunch of people who see God and Darwin as mutually exclusive. They see no need to correct the improper results of their teaching. That's bad teaching and bad science. They might as well be loading up the classrooms with atheists because that is what they are turning out.

Why can't all that Hollywood technology make Shatner look or sound like a real man?

Holy crap we've been transported. I'm going to hit the next 20 Kentucky Derbies in a row and be RICH, RICH, RICH. I can't wait for 2005. That Superfecta will be huge.

And don't miss the sequel.... "Cutting LJ"

Bad looking face?

The "original" fish were/are an expression of Christian faith. Some people see them as obnoxious and pushy. Clearly the Darwin fishes are sold as a mockery of the christian ones. The fish has now grown feet and in case someone misses the reference, the word "Darwin" is thrown in for good measure. This clearly states the owner of the sticker believes in Darwin and refutes Jesus because of it. If not, there would be no reason to shape it like a fish. I have no problem with Darwin and I also believe in God. I really see no conflict. Evidently thousands of believers and thousands of Darwinians do. If a church wants to teach that Darwin is bunk and the work of the devil that is their mistake/business. Scientists and educators are supposed to have a higher standard. They are supposed to measure their results and adjust accordingly. It is the scientific method. So far their results have thousands of people going out to compare the "opposite" theories of belief and Darwinism. Shouldn't a "scientist" try to adjust and correct this improper result? Or maybe they don't give a crap.

Page 5 of this thread. Replying to Coli. 7:15 PM.

I'm gonna pout if you don't drop the oil price Mr. Sheiky weiky.

The post I made in this thread cited my own anecdotal evidence. It is anecdotal, but I have personally seen it about 1000 times (not inflated) in my small travels. If you care to read it fine. Feel free to rip it apart. If not, fine. Don't call it stupid without reading it.

Come on man, it's gotta be Martina. One look at her in negotiations and any arab sheik drops the price of oil to 12 cents a barrel. That's 7 cents net after we get our nickel deposit back. That's good for the economy.

I took it in full context of this thread and the banter between the two posters. Some banter had gone on in other threads too but this thread's should have been enough. It was for me. It was a joke and I saw it for a joke. Once I saw that, it was unnecessary to determine whether he meant one, some or all. If you only read one or two individual posts and then lash out at the back end of a chain, you can end up looking silly.

I think this would have been a great post in an old thread (it's not bad here either). I was pounded from all sides for saying that it is possible that we are the only intelligent life in the universe. The basic premise was that anyone thinking that it is even a possibility is wildly arrogant. If I had to guess would I say we're alone? Not a chance. Is it even a slim possibility? I have to say that since we can't calculate the odds based on our knowledge, we have to think it is a possibility, however slim it might be. Boy did I get ripped.

Care to take a guess as to where my vote would go?

Are you giving free tickets to TBDers now that you own the place?

It was/is my understanding that an agnostic is not sure whether God exists but an atheist is sure God does not. I could be wrong about that.

Did you read my post from earlier?

I thought they were called agnostic.