Rampant Buffalo

What would make me happy: the Bills pass at least 60% of the time, if not more. Our WR corps is either good this year, or else Beane invests the necessary draft capital to make it good for next year. What would make me sad: the Bills de-prioritize the passing offense. They run the ball at least 50% of the time, as part of, gag, "complimentary football." They draft WRs who are also good run blockers. More resources are devoted to the defense, while the offense is denied any premium players at the WR position. The team's best asset is Josh Allen. Building around that asset would make me happy. Getting away from that asset, and doing other stuff instead, would make me sad. Will I be happy or sad? I don't know yet. Ask me again next year, and I should have a more concrete answer.

You make good points. That said . . . look at your own team, the Chiefs. After trading away Tyreek Hill, I think you guys used 3 first or second round picks on searching for his replacement. One of those picks turned into Rashee Rice. Not sure how the other two worked out. Now Rice is in a bit of trouble. Suppose Beane had said, "We need a WR also, and I trust KC's front office more than I trust my own scouting staff. Therefore, I'm going to draft each of the three prospects KC wants, before the Chiefs are able to take them." Had that been his strategy a few years ago, he'd have two disappointments and a guy in legal trouble. At the end of the day, a guy like Beane needs to be true to his own board, rather than getting too caught up in someone else's. As a GM, there is literally no substitute for good talent evaluation. If you have several WRs graded similarly, trading down is logical. If those were Beane's player grades, he has to act on that. Personally, I think that taking Coleman over McConkey was a very poor decision. But that's just one man's opinion, and we'll see how much or how little that opinion is worth in a couple years or so. I'd love to be wrong about Coleman. Josh Allen is the most valuable player in Bills franchise history, but his Super Bowl opportunities are being squandered by a bad supporting cast and sub-par defensive coaching in the playoffs. If Coleman proves me wrong, that's one less thing dragging down Allen's career.

Well . . . not necessarily. Maybe Beane's thought process was the following: If I stay at 28, my guy is Coleman. If I trade down from 28 to 33, I'm pretty sure Coleman will still be there. But let's say I'm wrong about that, and Coleman is gone. I've got some other WRs graded almost as highly as Coleman. If I trade down, my upside is guaranteed: I know I'm getting the extra picks. There probably won't be a downside: Coleman will probably still be there. But if there is a downside it will be small, because I'll be able to take some other WR with almost as good a grade as Coleman.

We don't know what the Bills' draft board looked like. It's possible they had the same or very similar grades on several WRs, with Coleman being one of them. If such was indeed the case, the right move is to do what they did. Trade back from 28 to 33. Take a guy at 33, who maybe had the same grade as anyone available at 28. My guy was Ladd McConkey. McConkey went at 34. I personally don't mind the trade-back, but I wish they'd gone in a different direction at 33!

I personally am pessimistic about Coleman. But to someone who's high on him, it could appear as though the Bills now have a quality long-term answer in place, at X receiver. The Bills have a pretty good slot WR in the form of Shakir, and they've upgraded their gadget player (Curtis Samuel instead of McKenzie). Kincaid is a very good TE, and Knox is pretty good too. Yeah, that still leaves a potential hole at Z receiver. Unless someone steps up at Z, I would anticipate them doing something about that next off-season. This may not be so much a case of them under-prioritizing WR, so much as them having a different view of Coleman than I have. Also Diggs may have forced his way out, thereby creating a hole at Z.

I think you might be confusing him with Keon Coleman! 😮

Michael Vick: dog abuse DeShaun Watson: should never get a massage again Ben Roethisberger: rape Tyreek Hill: domestic violence

In unrelated news, the Kansas City Chiefs might be in the market for a WR.

Don't worry. There's still time. 👍

I mean, it's easy to say that great QBs should elevate WRs. But in this past playoff game against the Chiefs, Bills WRs had 160 yards of drops. The main reason for that was that our WRs played very poorly in that game. But a second, contributing factor is Josh Allen's arm. You take a guy like Joe Montana. He slipped to the 3rd round, due in large part to lack of arm strength. A perfect QB for a West Coast offense. His passes were ridiculously catchable. Just about anyone could have caught those passes, because they were so easy to catch! Josh Allen has a level of arm strength Montana could only dream of. That allows Allen to throw passes Montana couldn't. But there's a hitch: it's harder to catch a high velocity pass from Allen, than it was to catch a soft, easy pass from Montana. If you've got a guy like Allen at QB, you need WRs with good hands, to be able to catch those high velocity passes.

Back when Marv was still head coach, the Bills had used two different rating services. Each put Fina in the bottom 10 for starting LTs. One of them put him lower down in the bottom 10 than did the other. In his last year as GM, John Butler signed Fina to a large new extension. (Fina had 1 year left on his old contract when he'd signed the extension.) A year later, the new GM, Tom Donahoe, released Fina in a cost cutting move. Fina signed for the vet minimum with some other team. Later in Cordy Glenn's career, the Bills traded him away to the Bengals. In exchange, they moved from 20th overall to 12th overall, as part of the trade-up for Josh Allen. I'm not saying that Cordy Glenn's name in particular needs to be on this list. But, I'm putting him out there as an example of a guy who was a good LT for the Bills, for a number of years. Fina's level of play was on the borderline between quality backup and low level starter: hence the Ryan Bates comparison.

Little known fact: every time a "Pardon My Take" episode airs, a governor issues a pardon for a Kansas City Chief!

Enough. Life is short. This thread is supposed to be about comparing Allen's playoff performance to that of other QBs. It's not supposed to be a pointless, endless argument about a factual claim Alphadawg cited from an article he'd encountered. I mean, it's good you guys drilled down, to determine exactly what that statement meant. That part at least was a contribution. Beyond that, the debate surrounding this has no value. Regardless of who does or doesn't get assigned blame here, it's not going to change my view of any of the participants. So can we please stop wasting time and get back to discussing the subject of this thread?

I don't necessarily see the Bills adding a game changer type player between now and opening day. But going into next year's off-season, at which position would I most want to see the Bills add a top talent? 1st choice: WR 2nd choice: DE 3rd choice: OL 4th choice: DT For now we'll see how it all plays out. Maybe a guy we're counting on lets us down. Maybe another guy, from whom we don't expect much, turns out to be the real deal.

John Fina was in the same general category as Ryan Bates. Questionable whether Fina was starting caliber, let alone someone who belongs on a Bills Mt. Rushmore. Cordy Glenn was much better. @Bill from NYC has a point about Jason Peters being better than any of the four you mentioned.

You make a good point. There's more to a LB's career than just his sack numbers. On the other hand, the Hall of Fame is supposed to be for those players who were truly elite. It's not the Hall of the Very Good. Let's say we're looking at total tackles. Cornelius Bennett had 1190 total tackles over the course of 206 games, for an average of 5.8 tackles per game. Chris Spielman, who isn't in the Hall of Fame, had 1363 total tackles over 148 games, for 9.2 tackles per game. I just don't think the numbers are there, to justify putting Cornelius Bennett in the Hall.

Someone needs to sit down with Mahomes' dad. Have a man-to-man talk. Tell him, "Listen, you are not actually a member of the Kansas City Chiefs. That means, you are not actually required to break the law, get arrested, or any of that stuff. I mean, I get that you want to go the extra mile here. Team solidarity and all that. But enough is enough."

Yes he is. See this link, yellow highlighted text in right column.

Well said. I agree with you that you can't just add back 160 bulk yards to Allen's stats. On the other hand, he probably deserves at least some of those bulk yards. Also, when calculating yards per attempt or QB rating, I'd argue he should get back every last one of those 160 yards of drops. Statistically adjusting that game to account for the drops could lead to debates about the proper methodology. Better just to drop that game before doing any comparison.

It is impossible to cast a shadow over that which is already completely dark. It is impossible to stop an object not in motion. It is impossible to silence that which is making no noise. Keon Coleman is already unguardable!

Players who don't belong in the Hall of Fame Cornelius Bennett. In his four best years for sacks, he had between 7 and 9.5 sacks per season. In the remaining ten years, he never had more than 5.5 sacks in a season. Troy Aikman. He played behind one of the two best OLs in NFL history. He had one of the greatest WRs ever in the form of Michael Irvin. A Pro Bowl TE. A very good RB in Emmitt Smith. With all those advantages, you want to see a guy average more than 7.0 yards per attempt. Players who do belong in the Hall of Fame Kurt Warner, QB. At the time, his three Super Bowl appearances were the three highest passing yardage totals in Super Bowl history. (A record since broken by Tom Brady.) He unequivocally deserved to be a first ballot Hall of Fame player. Steve Tasker, special teams. For reasons already discussed.

Guys who have no business being on a Bills Mt. Rushmore. Jeff Wright, for reasons already discussed. John Fina, LT. I acknowledge that Bills' OLs have been more bad than good over the years. But mentioning John Fina's name in a context such as this is the act of a drowning man clutching at any straw he can possibly find. Back when Fina was active, the Bills used two different rating services. Both had Fina in the bottom 10 of starting NFL LTs, with one putting him lower down in the bottom ten than did the other. Cordy Glenn was a much better football player than Fina. Nate Clements, CB. He had one good year with the Bills (contract year). Then the 49ers overpaid him, and he proceeded to do not much while he was there. Antoine Winfield was a much better player. Keith McKeller, TE. 1464 career receiving yards. (7 year career). Dawson Knox has already surpassed that, at 1966 (5 year career and counting). Dalton Kincaid has 673 receiving yards: nearly half McKeller's career total. Kincaid has been in the league just one year, and was under-utilized. Players who deserve to be on Bills Mt. Rushmore: Ted Washington, DT. Made lots of plays, and showed up big on the stat sheet, while consuming two blockers. Bryce Paup, pass rushing OLB (3-4). 17.5 sacks in a season. Defensive MVP for entire NFL. Henry Jones, safety. Honorable mention players: Pat Williams, DT. Ryan Fitzpatrick, QB Jason Peters, LT. Would have been a shoe-in had he been here longer.

Your post rings true. There are two separate questions here. 1) To what extent did the drops affect the success of the offense? 2) To what extent did the drops affect Allen's numbers for that game? Your post pertains to the first question. You've made solid points with respect to that first question. But, this is a QB comparison thread. Unlike question 1), question 2) is highly relevant to a QB comparison. 160 yards of drops are absolutely going to murder a QB's numbers, especially his yards per attempt and QB rating. Every last yard of those drops is dragging down Allen's numbers. Allen is swimming across a lake, and that game is the 160 pound ball and chain affixed to his ankle. He averaged 4.something yards per attempt that game, which is really bad. Give him back those 160 yards of drops, and guess what? That really bad 4.something number goes completely out the window, and gets replaced with a much better number. I repeat: the WRs played badly enough in that game, that Allen's performance cannot be meaningfully evaluated. That game should be dropped from any numbers-based QB comparison.

Let's say you get a media talking head, with just a tiny amount of surface knowledge about statistics. That talking head might be a little tempted to throw out the Patriots game. It's going to look like an outlier. A little digging would reveal that Allen received good performances from his WRs, his OL, and his OC in that game. Getting all three things to happen is unquestionably an outlier as far as Josh Allen's career is concerned. But, those things are not an outlier for a guy like Patrick Mahomes. Mahomes has received brilliant offensive coaching for each of his playoff games. He's had good to excellent play from his receiving targets, every single time. His OL has certainly played very well during all his playoff games against the Bills, and has played well in many other postseason games also. If someone wants to compare Allen's postseason play to that of Mahomes, I'd argue that the Pats game and the 13 seconds game are the most relevant, the most meaningful. During those two games, the support Allen received was the most similar to the support Mahomes usually gets.