Zerovoltz
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1 minute ago, Zebrastripes said:
Then you must enjoy talking out of your backside or you truly don't know what you're talking about.
All I am saying is the scouting report says Allen has physical gifts, and that he struggles under pressure and doesn't make good reads. So far the situations he has been in, favor him being able to showcase his known good qualities...his arm, body, etc....and have not been situations that would do much to test his percieved weaknesses...making reads...working under pressure.
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Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:
Leaf had none of the mental makeup nor work ethic of Josh Allen that differentiates the two. This makes your comparison of 1998 Leaf to the 2018 Allen rather flimsy. Each prospect is should be judged individually for what they are can be. Lazy comparison on your part.
I'm certainly not trying to say Allen = Leaf. My point is that the optimism is based on PRESEASON games. Lot's of awful NFL players have looked good in preseason games when really you are just running a scrimmage on TV......and lots of really good players, have looked bad, shaky, etc.
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There weren’t any apparent opening-night jitters for Ryan Leaf.
The touted rookie quarterback from Washington State came out poised and led two scoring drives – capping one with an impressive 3-yard TD pass to Bryan Still – and the San Diego Chargers beat San Francisco 27-21 in their exhibition opener last night.
Leaf made a few mistakes, like throwing into double coverage at the goal line – Still actually drew a pass-interference call on that one – and not getting off a play in time during the two-minute drill.
Otherwise, Leaf had a better night than Steve Young.
The 22-year-old Leaf, taken with the second pick in the April draft and named the starter for the season on Wednesday, was 14 for 20 for 116 yards.
Here’s another account of his first night:
Ryan Leaf didn’t look at all like a rattled rookie in his NFL debut. Sure, the touted San Diego Chargers quarterback made some mistakes and still has a ways to go in adjusting to the faster pace of the pro game. But was he nervous? Nope. It’s not in his playbook.
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“He throws so accurately,” coach Kevin Gilbride said. “Even though he was late a few times, he put it in position where the only one who could catch it was us. That was the most encouraging thing…. I don’t want to in any way, shape or form make it seem like he’s where he needs to be. Still, he’s able to make plays and that’s what it comes down to. I thought he did that very, very well.” As he has numerous times this summer, Gilbride called Leaf “special.” Running back Terrell Fletcher called Leaf “a fearless player. That’s a big attribute.”
Leaf said the radio receiver in his helmet, which coaches use to call in plays, didn’t work the first two series. He partially winged it, with help from his teammates and quarterback coach June Jones, who told him to have three or four plays down pat to use. “I think he surprised a lot of people with how composed he was,” guard Raleigh McKenzie said. “We went three-and-out the first series, then he got real poised. He knew what to do in there.”
Leaf’s first pre-season start was much better than the man selected one spot before him in the 1998 draft:Watching Peyton Manning and Jon Kitna, it was hard to tell who was the No. 1 pick in this year’s NFL draft. All Archie Manning’stutoring and that extra year at Tennessee couldn’t get Peyton Manning and the Indianapolis Colts past the Seattle Seahawks and Kitna in his pro debut.
After his first pass, a 48-yard touchdown strike to Marvin Harrison on his first series, Manning looked like an ordinary NFL rookie. There was a fumble that teammate Tony Mandarich recovered and an interception to end a series. In Manning’s other four series, it was three-and-out.
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“He’ll learn from his mistakes and he’ll play better,” Colts coach Jim Mora said.Manning admitted: “I need to play a little better. We didn’t move the ball very well.”
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Against Seattle, Manning was 8-for-15 for 113 yards with a touchdown and an interception. He looked confused at times. The NFL isn’t the Southeastern Conference. His father, Archie, a former NFL quarterback, told him that and now he’s finding that out for himself.
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He was intercepted by cornerback Fred Thomas in the second quarter before being replaced by Kelly Holcomb. On the first play of the second quarter, Manning fumbled without being hit, but the ball was recovered by Mandarich.“That was a rare, freak play,” Manning said of the fumble. “The ball just slipped out of my hand.”
But that was just one game. Manning and Leaf met head-to-head in the regular season dress rehearsal known as week three of the preseason:
Round 1 went to Ryan Leaf and the San Diego Chargers. The rematch with the Indianapolis Colts and Peyton Manning will be in October, when it counts.
The meeting last night between Leaf, the second pick in the National Football League draft, and Manning, the No. 1 pick, was only the second time in N.F.L. history quarterbacks picked 1-2 in the draft had faced each other as rookies.
Leaf was 15 for 24 for 172 yards, set up one touchdown and ran for a score as the Chargers broke a 3-3 tie at half and beat the Colts 33-3. It was only an exhibition game, but after a shaky first half, Leaf looked sharp in leading the Chargers.
Manning, playing into the third quarter for the first time in the preseason, was 11 for 21 for 123 yards but twice had passes intercepted.
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1 minute ago, Zebrastripes said:
I take it you must be skeptical of Mahomes as well then.
No.
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On 8/19/2018 at 10:40 AM, 26CornerBlitz said:
Allen Fighting Off Narratives With Strong Start to Preseason - The Draft Network
The Buffalo Bills decision to trade into the top-10 to select quarterback Josh Allen was met with doubt from many, including myself. Given his erratic ball placement in college, combined with sloppy footwork and highly questionable decision making, there was ample cause for concern. Yet, the Bills’ brass was comfortable with his shortcomings and banked on his exceptional physical traits to serve as a strong foundation to grow into an NFL franchise quarterback.So far, so good for the perceived “raw” Allen. Yes, it’s only been two preseason games, but there is a lot to like about what Allen has put on tape to this point, especially considering the concerns surrounding Allen entering the league.After a solid debut last week against Carolina working with the third-string offense, Allen was given the chance to play with the two’s on Friday night against Cleveland. Completing 9-of-14 passes for 60 yards and one touchdown with no interceptions, Allen earned a passer rating of 104.6. He added 18 yards rushing on three carries.There was a lot to like about Allen’s performance against the Browns.Allen is making head coach Sean McDermott’s decision on who to name the Bills’ starter a difficult one, and Allen’s opportunity to be the guy may come sooner than we all expected a few months ago.All well and good...but here read this.
There weren’t any apparent opening-night jitters for Ryan Leaf.
The touted rookie quarterback from Washington State came out poised and led two scoring drives – capping one with an impressive 3-yard TD pass to Bryan Still – and the San Diego Chargers beat San Francisco 27-21 in their exhibition opener last night.
Leaf made a few mistakes, like throwing into double coverage at the goal line – Still actually drew a pass-interference call on that one – and not getting off a play in time during the two-minute drill.
Otherwise, Leaf had a better night than Steve Young.
The 22-year-old Leaf, taken with the second pick in the April draft and named the starter for the season on Wednesday, was 14 for 20 for 116 yards.
Here’s another account of his first night:
Ryan Leaf didn’t look at all like a rattled rookie in his NFL debut. Sure, the touted San Diego Chargers quarterback made some mistakes and still has a ways to go in adjusting to the faster pace of the pro game. But was he nervous? Nope. It’s not in his playbook.
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“He throws so accurately,” coach Kevin Gilbride said. “Even though he was late a few times, he put it in position where the only one who could catch it was us. That was the most encouraging thing…. I don’t want to in any way, shape or form make it seem like he’s where he needs to be. Still, he’s able to make plays and that’s what it comes down to. I thought he did that very, very well.” As he has numerous times this summer, Gilbride called Leaf “special.” Running back Terrell Fletcher called Leaf “a fearless player. That’s a big attribute.”
Leaf said the radio receiver in his helmet, which coaches use to call in plays, didn’t work the first two series. He partially winged it, with help from his teammates and quarterback coach June Jones, who told him to have three or four plays down pat to use. “I think he surprised a lot of people with how composed he was,” guard Raleigh McKenzie said. “We went three-and-out the first series, then he got real poised. He knew what to do in there.”
Leaf’s first pre-season start was much better than the man selected one spot before him in the 1998 draft:Watching Peyton Manning and Jon Kitna, it was hard to tell who was the No. 1 pick in this year’s NFL draft. All Archie Manning’stutoring and that extra year at Tennessee couldn’t get Peyton Manning and the Indianapolis Colts past the Seattle Seahawks and Kitna in his pro debut.
After his first pass, a 48-yard touchdown strike to Marvin Harrison on his first series, Manning looked like an ordinary NFL rookie. There was a fumble that teammate Tony Mandarich recovered and an interception to end a series. In Manning’s other four series, it was three-and-out.
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“He’ll learn from his mistakes and he’ll play better,” Colts coach Jim Mora said.Manning admitted: “I need to play a little better. We didn’t move the ball very well.”
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Against Seattle, Manning was 8-for-15 for 113 yards with a touchdown and an interception. He looked confused at times. The NFL isn’t the Southeastern Conference. His father, Archie, a former NFL quarterback, told him that and now he’s finding that out for himself.
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He was intercepted by cornerback Fred Thomas in the second quarter before being replaced by Kelly Holcomb. On the first play of the second quarter, Manning fumbled without being hit, but the ball was recovered by Mandarich.“That was a rare, freak play,” Manning said of the fumble. “The ball just slipped out of my hand.”
But that was just one game. Manning and Leaf met head-to-head in the regular season dress rehearsal known as week three of the preseason:
Round 1 went to Ryan Leaf and the San Diego Chargers. The rematch with the Indianapolis Colts and Peyton Manning will be in October, when it counts.
The meeting last night between Leaf, the second pick in the National Football League draft, and Manning, the No. 1 pick, was only the second time in N.F.L. history quarterbacks picked 1-2 in the draft had faced each other as rookies.
Leaf was 15 for 24 for 172 yards, set up one touchdown and ran for a score as the Chargers broke a 3-3 tie at half and beat the Colts 33-3. It was only an exhibition game, but after a shaky first half, Leaf looked sharp in leading the Chargers.
Manning, playing into the third quarter for the first time in the preseason, was 11 for 21 for 123 yards but twice had passes intercepted.
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Been fun watching the Josh Allen experience you have going on.
I've been on record from the beginning saying the kid wouldn't succeed. I haven't changed my mind about that.
Of all the QB situations where there is a high rookie pick, Buffalo is the one where the kid you drafted was pretty much the best QB on the roster the second his name was called at the draft. Besides being on record about Allen, I am also quoted throughout this place saying McCarron and Peterson are known commodities of below average nobodies.
I still hope Allen succeeds. I can't help but think that every fan base is too critical or too optimistic about pre season football. I think this applies to Allen as well. No one is game planning against him. He is known to have a hard time with making reads. He is known to struggle under pressure.
The kid has a great arm...everyone knew it from the beginning. He can really sling that ball...and there will be some times when that arm overcomes a bad read etc...
I will remain skeptical of Allen until I have seen him perform against a D that is actually playing their scheme with their starters, gameplanning and all that.
Ryan Leaf had some incredible pre seasons....articles were written about how the Colts had screwed up the pick...all based on a few preseason games. Be Wary.
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If I were the Bills, I would offer my 1 and other stuff to try and get Mack. He is not averse to cold weather, he likes Buffalo, and he is a proven great player, AND you have the cap room for it. IF you can get him, you do it. That said, the Packers are in win now mode, and they are the only team as of right now with 2 1st round picks in the 2019 draft. They may be inclined to offer up both of those for Mack...(I'd do it)
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I have Arizona in a surprise. The Rams are obviously loaded with talent..but they are about to have a locker room full of guys that didn't get paid after having been there a while and guys who just walked through the door and got paid. I have them finishing second due to internal turmoil.
Arizona still has enough talent to compete and EITHER with a healthy Bradford or Rosen, has a QB to compete. The other part of this equation is that I think the other 2 teams in the diviosn, Seattle and San Fran, are not good. I do not think Jimmy G is a franchise type QB....reminds me quite a bit of Matt Cassel. Seattle has a lame duck coach with a further declining D, and a horrible O-line.
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Let me preface this by saying...it is CAMP....we don't know what they are working on, what drill they are doing, what skill they might be working on....we don't know if the coach said the ball MUST go here on this drill or if the D knows the play or not....CONTEXT is very important on these things....and even then...we are talking about CAMP. Preaseaon games when the bullets are not scripted by coaches on your own team and you are matching up and doing some things....is a little better indicator...anyhow....from Chiefs camp today...
One of the picks came after Mahomes drew a defender offsides and had a free play. The defender had a free shot at him, so Mahomes (knowing he had a free play) forced the throw rather than taking a sack, knowing it was win/win. That's not a bad play by the QB at all.
Another pick came on the goal line with Mahomes rolling right. He had a very, very easy path to the goal line (I mean he literally could have walked in) but, as he explained after, since the QB can't be tackled he figured he would just try to throw it in regardless. He stated after practice that he would run that in during a game. So this isn't a play that would literally ever happen in a real game.
The third pick was a mistaken communication that Mahomes said was his fault for calling the wrong play. That's on him.1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:30??? Where have you calculated that number from? And actually plenty of his touchdowns were long throws. He is the only Quarterback Will Fuller has played with in the NFL so far to make him look half decent and for exactly that reason.
Yes...Gunner Bill...I agree with that...especially about Fuller....I just can't get my head around Watson yet....he played really great in the New England and Seattle games..but had alot of good garbage stats as well.......I guess I just can't make up my mind on him yet. I would like to have seen a full season of him since he seemed to be super good at times then not so much at others...(maybe I am just over complicating that he was a rookie and inconsistancy is to be expected?) .....I tend to think that most of the time, after that much of a sample, I can make a decent evaluation .....Watson vexes me.....can't wait for the season to start....So many teams with new generation of QB's ....
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Just now, Aussie Joe said:
1 fumble lost..
He also scored 2 Rushing TD's which I didn't include originally so if we are counting fumbles then we should counting Rushing TDs as well so lets say 47 TD's total.
Every good QB ( and a few bad ones) stats would be padded with "garbage time" TD's and yards over the course of a season..
I would suggest if Mahomes or Allen produce a similar result over the course of this year we would be splooging...
yep
.....I am really looking forward to seeing Allen in the preseason....just so difficult to get any kind of good read on a guy in camp/practice etc....
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38 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:
Looks like he had 8 ints and 1 fumble in 7 games so is that 20 Turnovers a season?
Also he was on pace for 43 TD's..
Id take that for a rookie season...
He had 3 fumbles...but yeah...on pace for 43 TD.....really interesting to see how that plays out......he had 5 TD throwing VS KC last year....but basically 1 (or maybe 2) of those happend when it was still a game....3 for sure were just garbage time stat padding type of scores...in their game against the Titans..already leading 30-14 in the 4th Q...he threw 3 more TD....They all count..but I'm not sure the stat sheet tells the whole story. (as it often doesn't for many players, situations and games.)
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2 minutes ago, Da webster guy said:
This article really doesn't say he's struggling at all, just making mistakes and moving on like any inexperienced qb learning how to be an NFL starter.
There is a very good chance that Mahomes won't make it as a franchise guy. It's the same with Garrapolo-- let's see how these dudes do when they put together a decent body of work and NFL defensive coordinators start picking apart their game, learning their tendencies, and forcing them to play to their weaknesses. They're going to get facepunched more than they're going to roll up 300 yard passing games.
Right now DeShaun looked like the smart pick at qb last year, he was lighting it up before his injury, but again--let's see how he does with defenses stacked against his strengths and he isn't an unknown anymore. He might be the real deal, but let's be honest we go years between finding franchise qb's in this league, and having only a handful of solid games means zero in the NFL.
You may be entirely right or wrong about Mahomes, Garrapolo...etc....I do kind of smirk at the love DeSahun Watson gets.....he put up some big TD numbers....and good for him...but he was also on pace for 30 Turnovers....given that a good portion of his his long TD plays were of the catch and run variety and not so much the long awesome throw type...he might not seem so awesome.....agian....we'll have to wait and see...but it's as if people discount the fact he had so many turnovers...
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2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:
Where is the Chiefs fan we have hanging around to tell us that this article is wrong and give us two articles of how wonderful Mahommes is.
I'm here. My thoughts on Mahomes haven't changed because of this. We expect Mahomes to throw some INTS...he'll take chances that Alex Smith simply will not. He'll rely on his arm and make throws at times that he shouldn't make. That's fine...that's part of the deal. He is never ever going to have a 5 INT season like Alex Smith....very few QB's do. I've said it plenty of times before when discussing Mahomes and Smith...Smith was a good QB who was especially careful. He made it a point to take care of the football. That isn't a bad tihng in and of itself...but Smith's QB rating drops from the first quarter to the last, and his red zone efficiency is HORRIBLE. This isn't because Smith is an awful QB, it's because he is a very safe one. At some point, Smith figured out that you can do well by not turning over the football. .....what Smith does that you can't see on a stat sheet very easily is taking a 3rd and 8 and rushing for 3 yards instead of making a play to move the sticks, keep the ball, and the clock and score more points. I will trade the 5 INTS for 15 Mahomes INTS if Mahomes makes 30 plays to score points or extend drives that Smith did not make
If you read that article and consider that panic worthy, then you are reading into that what you want it to tell you and not what it's actually saying. How many is an acceptable number in a practice? How many do we know the defense did or didn't know the play call? How many were the QB actually making a mistake? Looking forward to preseason game action...
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4 hours ago, Sky Diver said:
I don't know what their model is or what factors they might be missing.
As far as weather, it's certainly a factor. It's easier to throw a football in Hawaii than Alaska from Sept to December, for example.
Wentz played in ND. Pretty nasty there in winter. Maybe they aren't weighting weather enough or it's not even in their model?
...um...North Dakota State plays in an indoor stadium.
The argument about Allen is this: Given his physical tools and mental makeup, either A) he really does suck because we have a BIG SAMPLE size that says he does. or B) He has sucked so far because in his youth and college years, he never was around good coaching or other players that would push his development along and he won't suck anymore after he gets good coaching and has teammates and opponents who are better quality.
That's it. I love metrics...I think metrics are really useful.....but it doesn't take advanced metrics to tell any reasonable person that Josh Allen's actual performance in football has been poor. That includes the Bills staff.
The Bills staff believes the answer is B....because you don't take him if you think it's A....and you also don't take him even if you believe it's B, but you aren't sure you can fix him. They think he's undercoaced and underdeveloped.
I don't think they can do it. I would only say, in this case, where you may actually have a guy with a ton of talent, who just hasn't been developed properly for years...that could be something the analytics would miss because the analytics are analyzing high level football players, and makes no assumptions where they came from or how much football they played where, or against who. This is where you'd not rely on a number spit out by a formula...but a human judgement. Again..I don't think it will end well, but I can see a case here about why the analytic numbers may not apply.
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Just now, GunnerBill said:
The Giants will be wanting a Quarterback. I think Manning is done and they made a mistake passing this year in my mind, though I always believed they would pass this year. Then after that:
Denver (Keenum is a guy I have always liked but he is a bridge and not to Paxton Lynch who is terrible)
Jacksonville (Bortles still has a tenuous hold on that job)
Washington (need to take a guy while they have Smith very much as KC did)
Miami (they can move on from Tannehill after this season and I think they are going to majorly suck this year)
Then the other possibles (except for New England and New Orleans maybe looking for long term guys) are Tampa, Tennessee and Cincinnati but I think any of those QBs would need to have a really bad year for the cord to be pulled.
I also thought the Giants made a mistake passing on QB this year...and that Manning is toast...they made some investments in their line and Barkely betting he has something left...we'll see.
Denver is an interesting situation....I think they'll be caught in between thinking he is the man to not really being good enough, but too good to move on from....even though they probably should.
JAX......They did sign him to that extension...but they can easily get out of it....they basically bought themselves another season or 2 of figuring out if he can or can't. He's probably going to last as long as that D is good and they can run the ball I'd think.
Washington...will need a guy in a year or two to start preparing to take over..but I don't think they will need that after this year.
Miami....Tannehill quietly signed an extension....he's an interesting case..was having something of a breakout year when he got hurt...really had that completion pct up there at 67%...now has injury history....you are probably right...he has to show big this year..and probalby wont.
Pats, Saints...need to find someone to groom.
Tampa may be the one team that ends up truly needing to find a new no.1 to start over with.
Titans....I think Mariotta isn't very good..but in his defense, their weapons have been lower end....and I don't think internally they consider him a bust.
Cincy....this is one where I would have been in that derby in this past draft...Dalton isn't that good...at least not consistantly enough.
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I don't know what the Bills would want or need...but I do think a few things are worth noting here for 2019.
1. This upcoming offseason may well be the most stable all 32 franchises have ever colectively been at QB...with this past season free agency and QB rich draft...I can't think of a team that would even really need top of the draft QB....New England might look for Bradys eventual replacement....in a year when so few other team would be in the market, they once again can zig when everyone else is zagging.......New Orleans..and maybe the Chargers could be in market for their teams future QBs.....throw the Giants in there as well...but in those cases..they are talented teams and those guys are still producing....otherwise...maybe Tampa if they decide they are done with Jameis....is about it really.
2. Part of the big push in this past draft year to nab that QB...was that 2019 has long been shaping up to be a poor QB draft year.....Drew Lock is the early leader, and he needs lots of work.
So, should the Bills find themselve up high or even at no.1.....they may find their pick to have lesser value than 2018 no.1 had....more like 2013...a year with no QB prospects worthwhile.
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7 hours ago, HappyDays said:
I'm kind of shocked a writer for Football Outsiders doesn't understand that the deep ball is only like 20% of why arm strength is important. The rest of it is the ability to execute plays in a timing offense to perfection. Take Peterman's last pass in the Jaguars game. He actually threw the ball right on time and arguably made the correct read. But it didn't matter because Jalen Ramsey was able to get to the ball. If Allen makes that exact throw, it wouldn't be an interception. At best Ramsey could have broken up the ball. The ability to throw the ball faster than a defender can catch up to it gives Allen a tremendous edge over other passers. Obviously that alone won't be enough. But anyone who sums up arm strength as "can throw the ball far" is way off the mark.
.....you keep suggesting Mahomes will be a bust but this is a huge part of his game....getting a ball to the target like a lazer.
4 hours ago, Da webster guy said:I love how they use the term "empirical evidence" as some sort of qualification.
That literally means they haven't witnessed or observed him having success in the NFL. Sadly, this hack writing is clickbait crap and they got me. Well done hacks......
The writer didn't really think this through....the evidence that Allen would be great are his combine measurables...wich are optimal for an NFL QB....that alone got the guy drafted 7th overall....the size, arm, wonderlic...GREAT STUFF.....and all of it is evidence that points to the idea the kid could be successful. What he, and pretty much anyone should be saying isn't that there are serious questions about why that has not translated very well to onfield results.....that's been the question since pre draft....who is Josh Allen? Another in a long line of perfect size, arm strength etc that just couldn't make it happen....OR....is he that perfect specimen who came from a small nowhere high school, to a small no where JUCO..to a small D-1 program...and never ever did get coaching or play around the kind of up and coming talent to grow his skill set with?
I've been on record all over this forum saying I don't think he will make it...but I have always maintained that HE COULD if you believe the scouting reports and your own coahces.....and that goes right along with who they think they got...the super talented kid that never did have the proper environment to reach his potential.
I'd hate to use a soccer analogy, but in that world...it's often said of american players...in order to develop to the fullest and take their game to the next level, they need to go play in Europe, around better players and better coaching.
Someone had mentioned the QBASE metric that suggests Allen will fail....because all 27 other QB's who ever had negative QBase like Allen, also failed...that poster correctly pointed out doesn't mean ever QB who ever scores that low will fail.....because it is a metric...and it doesn't know if Allen really is this star talent that just hasn't been put in position to grow. learn and improve with the right conditions etc.
Frankly, its an incredible gamble and very interesting to see how it works out....
I disagree this would be a victory for the "old school" ...but rather this WOULD be a victory for folks who really did identify a talented kid and realised that he was FAR FAR off from his actual potential.......other prototypical QB's who failed, came to the leauge much more developed and polished...having played in higher level programs from youth onward.
Again, I don't think he'll make it...BUT....I'm very willing to believe that he COULD....I do think there is something to the idea that his developmental years were not well spent on football development and there is a lot of room there to be couched up, unlike so many other prospects. Should be interesting.
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3 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:
One thing you might want to remember is that Allen got more and more time with the 1s as OTAs and Minicamp progressed.
And he got virtually all snaps on the last day of Minicamp... at least as far as it was reported.
You're right... actions speak louder than words.
But McDermott's words also spoke loudly when he claimed that OTAs and Minicamp should be viewed as having a rep chart rather than a depth chart and that depth chart can start being truly scrutinized in TC.
Well, Allen's reps increased throughout... so he seems to be moving up... and his last day of practice when he got the most reps might've been his best... and he's been back in Buffalo working for the last week or so.
Yes... I agree... actions speak louder than words and those actions spoke loudly.
I think we've about talked this out as far as it can go.....can't wait to see how he looks in preseason to get a better idea where he's at.
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IF they thought he was on the verge of starting, he wouldn't be running with the 3's. .....Actions speak louder than words...when he is running with the 1's at least half the time in practice etc...that will tell you what they think. ....they can tell a media person all they want about how he "isn't raw" or "further along than the scouting reports suggested" .....ALL these statements the staff is making are subjective....you can't quantify any of that....you can quantify what unit he is running with...the 1's, 2's, or 3s.
I'll try this one more time....if McCarron reaches his full potential right now...and the best he can ever be is a "5"....and he's at a 4-5 right now..then he is as READY as he'll ever be. He can't improve through more film study or practice...he is what he is right now. ......and the coaches start him while the work on getting allen READY....and his ceiling is 8,9,10...but he's at a 5.5....that would mean he is still the "best" QB on the roster, but he isn't ready in the coaches estimation. Before putting him on an NFL field, with your suspect line and not dynamic skill players....they might want to build him up to a level 6-7-8 away from game action.
I think we probably agree Allen is already the best QB on the roster right now....it's a matter of what we think the coaches determine the criteria to start is. I continue to contend that there is a lot of work to do....especially as that pertains to calling the correct audible, making a correct read, and an accurate throw. When they think he has made progress you'll know when he moves up and runs with the 2's, displacing one of Peterman or McCarron.
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We are glad to have Ragland here....he fits what they want him to do wich is mostly be a run stuffer....as the season goes on you can really see that he excells at reading the play, getting to the gap, filling, shedding etc...as other here have mentioned, Ragland isn't all that adept at coverage...and that's fine. KC won't ask him to do much of it....for his role etc...now having recovered from the injury and seeing him progress, I'd say we got a good deal....we'll see how it goes this year. Another person mentioned we signed an LB (Hitchens from Dallas) ....that was to replace Derrick Johnson...a great LB in his time..but he was noticibly VERY SLOW.....no longer able to pursue sideline to sideline nor cover like he once did....major liability....loved him as a player but time caught up to him.
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44 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:
Interesting interpretation. Really feels like you're reaching here trying to somehow stretch McDermott directly stating that Allen is more developed and further along in some ways than they thought initially (and lest we forget Beane's public rebuke of the preseason draft national narrative that Allen is somehow more "raw" than the other prospects or other historical 1st round rookies) followed by the incredibly obvious statement that we're not going to put him out there unless we feel he's ready.
Well duuuuhhhhh...
What coach would not do that? Or what good coach would not do that?
You might agree with Allen's scouting reports. But that really doesn't relate to what McDermott said and might even be counter to it.
If Allen is already better than McCarron and Peterman as you concede he likely is, but he's still not ready, Beane deserves to be fired for not seriously addressing the 2018 QB position.
You're massively insulting Peterman and McCarron, and if they're as bad as you seem to think they are, we're screwed.
Luckily, I think you're very wrong in more ways than one here.
We'll have to continue to agree to disagree.......The problem with this most recent argument of yours is that McDermott says "Allen is more developed and further along in some ways than they thought initially".......well that's all well and good except nobody knows what the baseline is for any of that.....it's like calling your friend who is driving to town from Toledo...you call to see how far away they are thinking they ought to be just about to Cleveland, and instead they tell you they've made good time and are at the ohio/penn border....still far away from you, but closer than you thought....we have no idea the criteria they are talking about....has he made to cleveland or has he made it Erie? ....either way, what we KNOW the coach said was he still has a long way to go wich of course is subjective...but what isn't subjective is that the coach says he is not READY. That doesn't say anything about who the best QB on the roster is to start a game if one were played now (It's Allen)
To put it another way, lets say there is a set of criteria that McDermot is working on with Allen and all of those have a rating 1-10...10 being fully developed...and overall Allen is at a 5 right now...but before he puts the kid on the field he wants to see level 7 and 8 in practice....even though McCarron is at 4 right now and Peterman is at 3. Allen is the best QB on the roster....but he isn't READY....if you have 3 qbs who all aren't ready...why not build up the actual future of the franchise and get him actually ready and burn up the expendable scrubs until he is? ....that's what is going to happen. The other 2 don't have big enough arms to overcome their lack of experience and wisdom. I expect Allen will see the field when they think he is READY....not when the other 2 prove they aren't.
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59 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:
This quote by McDermott is one I hadn't seen before and seems to be pretty ambiguous on who starts at QB for us and leaves the door as open for Allen to win the job as McDermott might.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.democratandchronicle.com/amp/783231002
“There’s been moments along the way through Josh’s career as a Bill to this point where you’re saying, ‘I knew he was here (at this level), but in fact, we think he’s a little bit further along than that in some areas,’” McDermott said. “That said, (there is) still a lot of work to do. We’re not going to put him out there unless we feel like he’s ready and that’s the important part of this, that we develop a nice foundation of strong fundamentals and football knowledge so that he can go out there and execute.”
This is the approach I have been advocating the whole time...the wording here is important....."We're not going to put him out there unless we feel like he's READY and that's the important part of this, that we develop a nice foundation of strong fundamentals and football knowledge so that he can go out there and execute."
He did not say we are going to put him out there when he is BETTER THAN THE OTHER GUYS. He most likely already IS better than them. This quote shows your coaching staffs thoughts are right in line with the pre draft scouting report that said he'd need work to improve his fundamentals and football knowledge. .....again, I am normally an advocate of getting a guy on the field ASAP, but in this case, I agree with the scouting reports...and your coaches.
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20 hours ago, SoTier said:
The quality of individual players in any draft is not determined by either the other players in that draft or by the hype spread by media talking heads.
- In the 1983 draft, the greatest QB class ever by result not by ratings of talking heads, produced 3 HOFs plus a decent NFL starter. The KC Chiefs still managed to pick an absolute bust in Todd Blackledge, the second QB taken.
- In the second best QB class ever, 2004, produced first round QBs Eli Manning, Phillip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger ... and JP Losman. Losman was not a first round prospect, and being drafting in the first round with three other QBs who are likely HOF candidates didn't make him any better or worse than he was.
FYI, the last time I looked, finding good DBs is a lot easier than finding good QBs. If Mahomes turns out to be a stud and Allen does not, the Bills will have screwed themselves once more ... just as they did in 2009 when they gave away All Pro LT Jason Peters or in 2010 when they gave away All Pro RB Marshawn Lynch.
If you don't like my opinions, don't read them or put me on ignore but don't dare tell me -- or any other poster -- to "shut up".
FTR, the Bills do not have "one of the best secondaries in the league" but feel free to make up BS to justify your uncritical fandom for a team that's produced only 20 winning seasons in 58 years.
THIS.....is absolutely correct. Think of the best DB of all time...you pick...Darrel Green, Ronnie Lott, Dieon Sanders......doesn't matter..pick that guy....then think of what QB you could expect to get in a trade for one of those guys.....Aaron Rodgers...no....how far down the list of QBs would you get before some team would say....yeah...Ok...we'll take your stud DB for our QB......you'd get pretty damn far down the list.....and you certainly couldn't get Mahomes for White. or White and any combo of players and picks.
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1 minute ago, Haplo848 said:
So my question would be, why wouldn't we just wait until the Chiefs inevitably have to cut one of their ridiculous number of good RBs?
You absolutely could...but they'd miss YOUR training camp.....wich isn't a real big deal...and I would guess, that we are talking 6th or 7th round type compensation either way.
Someone mentioned Tevin Coleman, and I have seen that name elsewhere on this board....he'd be a great aquisition if you could land him......would take something good to get them to move on from him now considering he is really good proven depth.
Allen Fighting Off Narratives With Strong Start to Preseason - The Draft Network
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
If I were a Bills fan, I would also be encouraged by what he has shown so far....because it was what is supposed to be good....the scouting report so far has been right...he looks great in practice...and he's looked pretty good in preseason. He is supposed to shine in these situations.