Zerovoltz
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Posts posted by Zerovoltz
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I don't suppose this head to head comparison of each of these guys 1st 2 NFL seasons means anything to anyone here. I threw in Vick because unlike the other QB on this list, Allen is a weapon as a runner, and his running stats thus far are practically equal to Vick in his first 2 NFL seasons. It is remarkable that Vick and Allen also have nearly the same completions and attempts on a per game basis through a similar number of games at this point in their careers.
Would you be happy if Allen had a VICK like career?
Per Game
Passing Rushing Rk Player From To Cmp Att Yds TD Int Sk Yds Att Yds TD 1 Josh Allen 2018 2018 12.6 23.9 152.9 0.6 0.9 2.9 22.6 7.1 48.6 0.5 2 Jim Kelly* 1986 1987 19.1 32.1 228.3 1.5 1.0 2.5 20.3 2.5 11.9 0.0 3 J.P. Losman 2004 2005 8.9 17.9 105.5 0.6 0.7 2.1 15.2 2.5 13.0 0.0 4 EJ Manuel 2013 2017 11.4 19.7 125.6 0.7 0.5 1.6 9.9 3.2 11.3 0.1 5 Michael Vick 2001 2002 12.2 23.2 161.8 0.8 0.5 2.3 13.9 6.3 46.3 0. -
2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:
You do not understand the concept of accuracy. You continue to conflate completion percentage as some magical measure and ignore the multitude of variables that can affect it.
These same variables apply to every QB do they not? If we can’t apply any measurable metrics to a qb then what can we apply?
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4 hours ago, GoBills808 said:
Cool. And I think Mahomes is a lot like Foles: basically a bad QB who had one good year and then is destined to fade into obscurity. Sure, Mahomes has a slightly better completion % but Foles had a much better TD/INT ratio and they had exactly the same YPA of 9.1. Just two systems QBs. Everything they're saying about Mahomes now they said about Foles in 2013. Many seem to think they're bound to follow similar paths.
What numbers would you like to use to measure his progress as a passer and how much time do you think is enough to see results?
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1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:
So...you've now given us Tim Tebow and Kyle Boller as Allen comps. Might as well go whole hog and throw in Jamarcus Russell for the trifecta of terrible QB takes.
I’m giving those guys as examples of prospects who “just needed to be more accurate”. Allen is an incredible prospect. More gifted than those guys. The comparison is that NFL people and fans thought it was just a matter of more time more reps and more coaching and the accuracy, passing efficiency, was going to happen, like a forgone conclusion.
most of the fans on this board speak of Allen exactly this same way. More time more reps and better supporting cast has been the failing formula to improve accuracy for decades. Many here seem to think success is right around the corner.
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.....the argument that The difference between Allen being a 60% thrower and a 55% thrower is 1.5 passes completed if he attempts 30 passes.
This is is mathematically correct but you can apply this to every QB. Somehow others manage to consistently complete at a higher pct despite also having to throw a ball away, have the receiver drop the pass etc.
quarterbacks not not named Josh Allen have higher completion pct with the same group.
my point remains. Allen is an incredible prospect with lots of gifts and talent and he has a very substantial set of data to look at that suggests he isn’t accurate and that it is far from a given he ever will be.
My point isn’t that I think Allen is awful or that I think he can’t improve or that given better supporting cast improvement can’t happen.
It is not a given. Another example of a guy with a great arm, gifts etc was Kyle Boler. A guy coaches thought wasn’t accurate due to supporting cast at college and who they could coach up and surround with talent and fix him. There are a lot of Kyle Bolers. Accuracy, efficiency whatever you want to call it... but it is HARD to teach. Making quick reads, and then the proper pass don’t tend to be things that can be improved much of at all by coaching or better players around.
ive said in many other threads here that given his incredible natural gifts and his football upbringing he is worthwhile. I can buy the argument that he was a farm kid that never was coached up as a kid, as a high school player or in college....
its not a given and if Allen does develop into a legit franchise QB he will have beaten long odds and the Bills leadership will deserve to be praised as geniuses.
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8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:
Please stop with the Tebow stuff.
You've got a point about improving QB accuracy not being a given, but rather something relatively rare and difficult.
But no one thought Tebow could pass. His whole passing motion was crap from the start, and known to be crap from the start. No one lined up at the Combine to ooh and ahh over his throws. He never made the kind of passes Allen makes sometimes that snap your head around and drop your jaw. Stop with the Tebow stuff, it's simply an inapt comparison.
As for "Baby Hoodie" coaching him, that counts as a positive when "Baby Hoodie" shows he can develop a QB. So far his track record is not good. Sam Bradford, who can actually pass and play QB when healthy, looked totally incompetent with McDaniels as OC. 53.6% completion percentage and 6 TD, 6 INT in 10 games. Magically, his completion percentage and TD/INT were better his rookie season under Shurmer and magically improved the following year under Schottenheimer. Huh.
The "Lamar Jackson would have been all time greats" is also wierd - he's a rookie, like Allen. He might improve, he might not. He might be an all time great, he might not. But talking about what he "would have been" when he's still a rookie is - agenda-ish, I'll just say that.
This is fair. Clearly I am not doing a good job of making my argument. The Tebow comparison I tried to make wasn’t about Allen and Tebow being the same guy, but was an attempt to make my original and only point here wich is that Accuracy way more often than not, doesn’t just happen, many very good prospects, with good coaching often fail to improve this vital skill. My whole point is that many many posters here, when talking about Allen, are dismissive of his lack of accuracy and explain it away like it’s simply a matter of time and is bound to happen. If there were several past cases I’d this happening then it would be something to be assumed and dismissive about. The past suggests that in fact accuracy is very difficult to improve and for a good many humans, is something you are born with or not. I am not taking anything away from the raw prospect he is. He is a tremendous prospect. I would be excited at this point if I were a bulls fan to see if he can get better because he shows so much of what you want a QB to be. That said it is not a given he’ll ever be consistently accurate enough to be a franchise type QB and any analysis that involves just assuming some linear improvement.
The accuracy is is a concern and a problem. It was on draft day and it still is.
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27 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:
Those stats are extremely misleading. Percentage completion for a QB is only sometimes an accurate indicator of accuracy. The last two weeks Allen has led the league in yards in the air per pass. When it is third and 20 he throws a 20-30 yard pass not a completion for 6 yards and a punt. He rarely throws screens and WR screens, maybe two a game, which are completions and gin up percentage stats for 2/3 of the quarterbacks in the league. He rarely if ever dumps the ball off to a RB if his WR are covered. The Bills don't even have those guys in the play calls. The Bills also have the worst WR corps in the entire league, no run game and terrible blocking.
Allen had a 8-19 stat line last week and he was very accurate most of the entire game. If he threw two more called screen passes a game, which most teams do, and are almost guaranteed completions that have zero to do with accuracy, his completion percentage would jump from the 50s to the 60s with no better throws.
I agree Allen goes downfield more often than many QB do....and having watched Alex Smith for years...I agree, high completion PCT isn't the be all end all for accuracy. Smith comleted a TON of short easy passes. Accuracy is more than completion PCT....as stated by others here. .....So, even given all this....isn't it worth asking then, if you KNOW Allen can only complete "X" pct of deeper passes and you believe he'd complete more if you called a screen or slant or two...wouldn't someone in all this time, figured out that it was worthwhile to call a short pass for the guy here and there? .....what good does it do to throw it farther downfield if you don't complete those? Certainly he doesn't connect often enough to justify doing it as much as he does....he doesn't throw TD's at a high enough rate to justify it....he has a high turnover rate that might go down....wouldn't it be optimal to have him throw shorter more often?
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3 minutes ago, BB@Shooter said:
Go look at some of my posts about Allen. I am from Wyoming and have explained why his numbers weren't great at Wyoming. It isn't accuracy issues. He had a worse supporting cast than he does now, they were a running team, and his OC put him in a lot of 3rd and long situations. You need to research more. And not take the lazy way out and listen to others who didn't research.
Why did the two QB under Coach Bohl, who were before Allen have signifigantly higher completion pcts?
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1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:
You see this is more info showing that you really don’t understand what you are saying. Tebow didn’t have an accuracy issue, he had a mechanics and throwing issue. He literally had just a terrible throwing motion and awful mechanics, he just couldn’t throw a football. Josh doesn’t have anything remotely close to the same issues.
There is literally no similarity between the challenges in Allen’s game and the challenges in Tebow.
.....so that kind of leads me back to my point to begin with...if Allen is destined to be accurate...why wasn't anyone able to fix him in HS? in JUCO? At Wyoming (where he had the same coaches as Carson Wentz) ? It's not just going to suddenly happen....and I don't know how you make it happen or what coach you need etc..or maybe the right cast....If it were easy, if were bound to happen....it would happen a lot more often than it does for other talented athletes...like a Vick etc etc.
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2 minutes ago, Success said:
Tebow’s release was a major problem, also. He had a big wind-up.
Allen’s accuracy improved over the course of the game today. I think it’s probable that it increases over his career- particularly if he doesn’t have to run for his life every play and gets a few more legit receivers to throw to.
It’s not like QBs have never improved their accuracy.
I agree....it has happend...it can happen...but it isn't typical...it isn't usual...the numbers were all over the place at draft time about college QB who had poor accuracy in college almost never improved much or at all in the pros. From what I have seen...and what I have read...Allen is every bit the guy the scouting reports said...and he has a LONG way to go to be consistanly accurate. ...that doesn't mean I am saying he sucks...it doesn't mean I am saying he isn't worth developing....quite the opposite...I'm just saying that improving accuracy is HARD TO DO and that it doesn't just happen because over time the switch just goes on....we'll know when he strings 4 games or better of 60% plus if he's getting there or not.
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1 minute ago, John from Riverside said:
Josh Allen should have 4 TD passes today......are you saying that dropped passes that hit a QB right in the hands is not something we should expect to improve with better talent at wideout?
He was supposed to be the most raw rookie of this draft class.....by a lot actually......so bills fans are not supposed to expect him to improve as he matures as a passer?
His offensive line is crap.....we literally cannot run the ball.......we put Josh Allen is ridiculous situations with 3rd and longs do to not being able to run the ball and penalties....are we not supposed to think he cant improve if he has more plays to his disposal.
We hardly ever throw screens....which is a pass to drive up percentage for QBs....you dont think that doesnt come into play?
Come on man
I absolutely do! I agree....very very very RAW....he's supposed to take time. You guys are all arguing at me like I am telling you it can't happen. I HOPE IT DOES! .....I am pointing out that a good many of you folks here speak about Allens accuracy issue like it will just get better as time passes...as he has more reps...if his supporting cast is better...ETC ETC.....when I bring up Tebow...I do so to demonstrate that everything they ever tried to fix his accuracy never worked...he got reps, he got coaching, he had a good supporting cast and a good defense....I am rooting for Allen to do it....I think the task at hand is DIFFICULT. Improving accuracy is hard...and big improvements from college to pros are not typical. My gripe, my point is that MANY posters kind of just write it off like it's bound to be better as he gets more reps, time passes, etc....it is not inevitable...it will be Allen overcoming the the odds, and beating back conventional wisdom IF he gets better......A lot of rookie QB's come in and struggle...but a good many of them had demonstrated accuracy in College....Baker Mayfiled had a horrible day today...he was a 71% thrower in college...it is reasonable to expect he;ll be accurate in the pros....he has demonstrated accuracy over a long period of time...it is reasonable to expect he will develop into an accurate NFL QB (that doesn't mean he will, but he's shown accuracy and shown that he has progressed in being more accurate as time passed)
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IF Tebow were accurate he would be a star.....that's the thing that bothers me...No one could make Tebow more accurate...he didn't have it in him...and he had Baby Hoodie coaching him. Improving accuracy is not a given...it's much more likely that it doesn't improve.....If you could take a guy whose problem is accuracy and fix it....then guys like Lamar Jackson and Mike Vick would have been all time greats.
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Let me try this AGAIN. I like ALLEN. I am amused, intrigued...what have you....that so many of you are quick to look at Allens accuracy is some minor detail that just needs cleaned up. My point is that accuracy is a MAJOR component of a QB's game...perhaps the most important part. I hope he does. I harbor no ill will toward teh Bills, the players, the fans etc. I think I were a Bills fan, I would be very cautiously optimistic about Allen....because of the accuracy and not just casually throwing out statements like "with a little more time, his accuracy will be better" If he just had a few better pieces, his accuaracy will be better....etc.
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8 minutes ago, Augie said:
Is your first name Jeff? Are you magic?
No. My name is gary. I am not magic.
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1 minute ago, billieve420 said:
If his ceiling is Cam Newton you take it.
Of course you do! Cam is a career 60 PCT passer thus far ....although having an above career year in that stat so far this season. .....if you get ALLEN to 60, 61, 62...You will have WON that draft pick. (also assuing the INTS are limited to something reasonable) He isn't there yet...and 60 would be a remarkable improvement over his college numbers....
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Just now, John from Riverside said:
I know Im going to regret this....but can you please explain what Tebow and Josh Allen have in common?
Both big build, good runners, charismatic, winners, scouting reports concered about accuracy at pro level. Completion PCT, TD's INTS, comparable...Allen better comp % by a little bit...but Tebow more TD and less INTS ....still pretty close. Both had very good defenses to help them. Allen certainly has the better raw arm.
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Just now, GoBills808 said:
You need me to explain the differences between Josh Allen and Tim Tebow to you? Are you trolling or just an imbecile?
No...they would appear to have quite a bit in common at this point.
1 minute ago, SJDK said:Almost forgot about the football god Matt freaking Barkley. He did have one great game...in his career. Anderson’s checkdowns were very effective (for completion percentage that is). Lot of fire in that guy too, he is a passionate man
What is an acceptable completion PCT for Allen?
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1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:
Yeah but you keep comparing Allen to Tebow, so you’re still a clownsuit. Just own it.
Its not unreasonable. Which part of that comparison doesn't match up in your opinion?
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I think some of you are taking my comments the wrong way. I'm not saying Allen is bad etc...I like the guy...he is fun to watch. All I am taking issue with is that many on this board use phrases like "he just needs to fix his accuracy" and he's a star. ....It's almost like it's a forgone conclusion here that Allen is going to improve his accuracy because it's a matter of just doing it.....I think that is A LOT to assume.....it's the whole reason he wasn't some Andrew Luck type prospect....you can't just wish it away. I hope he does improve....He's an intriguing prospect....a great gamble by the Bills to see if in fact the accuracy can be increased...
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3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:
Everyone should stop bothering with the troll. Earlier in the season he was claiming Peterman was going to turn out to be our franchise QB. That's as bad as it gets.
You have me confused with someone else. I have NEVER EVER said anything about Peterman being good, ok, etc.
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14 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:
Tebow?
Tebow was not even close to the talent Allen is. Watching today's game you understand why so many scouts loved him despite less than stellar career college numbers at a school like Wyoming. He shows flashes of Rodgers like capability but yes, his footwork is still very sloppy causing him to have some very bad throws. This may or may not get better, but I was pretty impressed for as raw a prospect as Allen is in several instances in today's game. At the same time scratching my head at some of his throws.
He stared the game badly, but he was without question a different QB in the 2nd half of today's game.
I agree Allen is very talented. Great build...great athlete...great runner...super strong arm...leader...etc....he isn't accurate. He never has been. This isn't some brilliant observation on my part....all I am saying is that accuracy is the toughest skill to have, to improve, to work on....it's just odd to me, that so many poeple think this is an "easy" fix..."just" need to fix his accuracy. he "just" needs some better supporting cast (even though others seem to be able to perform with this group)
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1 minute ago, PrimeTime101 said:
Except for the QB's I quoted earlier? and the many more I could add to that list if I did more homework on the topic? na. nice try
The QB's you quoted earlier especially Montana....had like 20 attempts his first year... ....anyhow...Steve Young was 65 % passer in college. He was a 65% passer in the pros. Aikman was a 63% passer in College and a 61% passer in the pros. Trubisky was a 67% completion thrower in college.....I don't understand your point...All these guys were accurate passers who were also accurate in the pros...They all progressed (except Trubs who only played one year) while in college. They were the passers everyone thought they were. Allen is the passer everyone thought he was.
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3 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:
see there you go again, first bolded you should be looking at his progression between the senior bowl and now. Second bolded. Repeat players on team quality wise has lots to do with this. QB's make your players look great but players around the QB can make your QB look worse. what's not to understand about this fact.
This would be a valid argument EXCEPT other lesser QB's have signifigantly better numbers throwing to the same guys.
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3 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:
I acknowledge that he looks for the deeper passes more then the right pass and is not captain check down, doesn't throw more shorter passes (witch he needs to work on.) He is not a vet like the other guys that makes smarter plays, he is a rookie doing rookie things. Does he get to 65% next year? no one can say for sure. Cam Newton is hovering just under 60% career and I think Josh Allen will reach that when this offense gets fixed.
I am going to name a perfect example for those of you that don't think a person/situation can fix QB stats.
Steve Young first year was 53%
Joe Montana first year was 56%
Mitchell Trubisky 59%
Troy Aikman who was on record saying you cant fix accuracy started his first year with bad accuracy, how did that work out
Answer: Does Josh Allen have accuracy issues right now? yes? is that a lot do to the situation he is in and not sitting a raw talented player one year yes? Can he fix that? yes
am I going to complain or even worry about it this year? hell no
I am all on board with the idea Allen is a rookie. WE all expect issues, problems...etc. What I would be worried about is the lack of progression in college....even at that level, pick any QB you want...there is almost always a couple pct point improvement year over year at that level as guys get used to the college game etc....Allen didn't show that....I've seen the argument he had a way better roster the year before his last college season.....I would worry about it if he gets to the end of this year with a sub 55% for the year. That isn't getting it done in this era.
Kelvin Benjamin Signs a 1-Year Deal with Kansas City; Has a Chance to Impress with Watkins Likely Out Until the Playoffs
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
This is the only reason for KC to sign him if we did it to "help" our own team. KC is thin at TE after Kelce.
They may well have done this to keep him from Denver as well.
Watkins is apparently currently healthy so this signing, if it's about Watson at all, wasn't about Watson this week.
Frankly, a good many KC fans are overly happy about this signing and think we are getting the guy who excelled in Carolina, and not the hot mess he's been in Buffalo this year.
If he works hard here and makes a contribution here and NOT in Denver, then I'm good with it....but really not a big deal in my opinion.
Best Case is that he moves to TE and does well, makes himself into a nice thick tall red zone target....worst case...he sits on the bench and does nothing....not costing us much...and he isn't in Denver.