SoTier

They're never "the same Patriots" but somehow they manage to win games, especially playoff games. Against a more complete team with more play makers, especially on offense, than the Bills have, they probably aren't "the same Patriots" but the Bills still have a ways to go to compete with the AFC's elite.

I agree. My view is that the Patriots are the Patriots. This is the time of year that they get their collective act together, start making even good defenses look lackluster, and far better offenses than the Bills have look anemic (see Rams in last year's SB). Every season they conjure up some has-been or never-was to crush other teams' playoff/Super Bowl dreams. This year, they took somewhat longer than they usually do to get into gear, and that probably gave us "outsiders" -- other teams, commentators, and fans -- the false idea that they were on death's door. Apparently the reports of the Patriots' demise were a bit premature.

Totally agree. I think that resting starters just to rest them would undermine everything that McDermott and his staff have worked hard to instill into this team all season. This is a very young team with virtually no playoff experience as a unit. They need the continuity of mentally preparing and then playing to win a game, whether they're 10-5 or 5-10. I have no problem with the Bills liberally interspersing backups into the lineup to give them game experience but I don't think the Bills should go into the game with the attitude being communicated to the players that the game is meaningless.

If the Bills in the Glory Years had had great defenses, not just good ones, there likely would be at least one Lombardi residing at OBD. Get your facts straight, dude. McDermott/Beane inherited a very talented WR corps: Sammy Watkins, Robert Woods, Marquise Goodwin. They inherited a pretty good OL, particularly on the left side with Incognito and Glenn. They had McCoy at RB. None of those players left the Bills because they demanded trades or retired or were forced into retirement by injury. Gore is NOT the equivalent of McCoy unless you go back to the Gore of 5 or 6 years ago. Zay Jones was a McDermott draft pick. Beane traded for Benjamin.

I think -- at least I hope -- that McDermott/Daboll are coaching the conservative mode that they are because of the personnel limitations on the offense. I don't believe that the current model is sustainable in this era. Even great QBs like Brady and Rodgers struggle to put up points when they don't have weapons around them -- and their teams lose games that they probably wouldn't have lost in other seasons when they had better weapons. I've long been a critic of the way that McDermott and Beane stripped the offense of the talent they inherited and replaced it with much lesser talent. You cannot build a winning team with your offense loaded with Day 3 picks, UDFAs, and refugees from the CFL. Beane made some excellent acquisitions for the OL in 2019, and Beasley and Brown were good signings, but the general lack of talent on offense needs to be fixed sooner rather than later because it will hamstring the Bills in the playoffs where they'll face teams that not only have just as good or better defenses but also juggernaut offenses. This is simply untrue. Allen's playing much better recently than he was even earlier in the season, much less last season. Good defenses can make even great QBs look bad. The stretch from Thanksgiving through this week end (Cowboys, Ravens, Steelers, Patriots) could have been a 0-4 disaster if Allen hadn't played well. At worse, they will go 2-2 and maybe even 3-1.

Nobody is denying that Allen needs to be better, by a lot in some respects. However, given where he is in his career, where we are in the season, and quality of the personnel on the Bills offense, he's become a "good enough" NFL QB for this particular Bills team. He has limitations, but his leadership and clutch play have made up for those limitations in most games. A team that's serious about making the playoffs can't afford a QB who's likely to repeatedly turn over the ball in most games, no matter how many passing TDs the QB throws. Winston is essentially playing the same way as a fifth year player as he did as a second year player. He's never improved his most serious flaw: throwing to the wrong team. There is absolutely no evidence that bringing in Bruce Arians -- an alleged QB whisperer -- has significantly improved Winston's play. Franchising Winston is simply a waste of time and money. The Bucs need to move on. Agreed. I've been very critical of Beane and McDermott for the lack of talent on offense (including coaching) -- and it's effect on Allen's development and success. The Bills are trying to compete with offensive juggernauts with way too many players who were late draft picks or UDFAs. Those guys in general tend to be significantly less talented than guys taken in the first. Not many offensive playmakers come out of the ranks of Day 3 picks or undrafted players. The Bills absolutely need to stop treating the offense as a "red headed stepchild". They need to re-sign 2 or 3 of the OLers that they signed in 2019 to 1 year contracts. On the OL, continuity counts for a lot. They need to add a big, sure-handed veteran receiver (WR or TE). They need to sign or draft a better RB than Gore and Yeldon. They need to use their first round pick -- and maybe their second rounder as well -- on the offense, hopefully finding a playmaker.

I don't think that the problems in Jax are because of Marrone. Coughlin has always been a hard-arse, and he's run his teams like a stereotypical Marine drill sergeant, which doesn't fly with today's NFL players. I think the fact that Coughlin was fired so close to the end of the season and just a day or two after the Jags lost the NFLPA grievance over "excessive fines" for players who didn't rehab at the Jags facility during the off-season -- among other grievances -- tells you all you need to know about who's the source of Jax's problems.

You would be right in your observation if teams got points for completion percentage and yards, but they don't. They get points for putting the ball in the end zone or through the uprights. Allen ran for the Bills first TD and threw to Kroft in the EZ for the second one. I totally agree with this. Eli's stats make him look pretty average. He was also streaky, but when he was in his prime, he was less streaky and super clutch. He beat the Patriots twice in the Super Bowl with clutch plays, most notably his pass to David Tyree in the Giants' second Super Bowl win over the Pats that spoiled their quest for a perfect season. Which would you rather have? Eli's average stats and 2 Lombardis or Rivers' great stats but never even making the Super Bowl??? I know which I'd rather have, but I don't play fantasy football so Ws count more for me than stats.

Many of these same posters also ignore the fact that Allen doesn't have a big, sure-handed WR and a dependable pass catching TE. Lots of times in the passing game, success comes from mismatches, especially big, tall, sure-handed receivers against smaller DBs. Think Nuke or Gronk or AJ. They've got a speedster in Brown but they need a couple of big targets, especially in the red zone.

I think that too many Bills fans are too sensitive about criticism of Allen in the media. Some of the criticism is justified because Allen doesn't put up great passing stats, and his game still needs considerable work. OTOH, passing stats have become the be-all and end-all for some in the media as well as among some fans --at least partly and maybe mostly -- due to fantasy football, but passing stats alone don't define great QBs. IMO, Allen is already a competent NFL QB who demonstrates both good leadership and clutch play even though his passing stats aren't very good. He not only improved significantly from his rookie season, he's continued to improve as both a passer and a QB over the course of this season. Allen has thrown for 18 TDs and only 9 picks in 2019, and he's run for 9 more. Allen, in only 2 seasons, had already directed 6 4th quarter comebacks and 8 game winning drive. Jameis Winston OTOH has never been a competent NFL QB despite a being a great passer. His poor decision making has regularly cost his team wins. In his five seasons, Winston has thrown for 118 TDs in 70 games -- and 82 INTs. He's led 7 4th quarter comebacks and led 11 game winning drives in 5 seasons. Essentially, Winston is the same QB in Year 5 as he was in Year 2. Even having QB whisperer Bruce Arians as his HC has only helped Winston improve his QB play very marginally -- he's thrown 30 TDs and 24 INTs in 14 games this season.

One of the comments I heard on tv after last night's game was that what makes Brady and Brees so great is that they have both played in one system so long that they react with the right play almost instantly to any situation they encounter. They don't have to mentally run through all the plays they could call for that down and distance. They just have learned over time which call is the most likely to work against in that situation against a defense like their facing. It's like driving a car: after you've been driving for several years, you don't have to think of all the things you have to do like you did when you had your learner's permit. Allen is like a kid who's just passed his road test but isn't experienced enough to be as good a driver as he could be in a year or two. Of course, some young drivers never improve much, but most do. Let's hope Allen gets better.

I think it's actually smart coaching. The Bills simply don't have the offensive personnel to play wide open, especially near the goal line, and McDermott and Daboll are playing for team success. Against a tough defense with a penchant for forcing turn overs, playing conservative and getting three points rather than a TO is the smart move. While it's often true that people learn from their mistakes, they don't tend to learn much from continual failure. Frequent failure breeds discouragement and self doubt, and for a football team, that creates the infamous "losing culture". Conservative coaching isn't the style I'd prefer, but it's what the Bills realistically have to do in order to win games with the offensive talent that they have on the roster, and winning games is the name of the game. Your complaint would be valid if Josh Allen was playing at a much higher level but he's not good enough at this point in his career, and the Bills don't have enough offensive talent around him at present to help him be better in the short term. Exactly this. The Bills need success as a team right now much more than Josh Allen needs to try to up his stats, which he probably wouldn't do anyways because the Bills simply don't have the talent around him to help him. Anybody who doesn't think that the Bills -- and especially Allen -- desperately need a big, sure-handed WR like DeAndre Hopkins or Michael Thomas isn't paying attention.

Don't be so sure ... the Patriots replaced Drew Bledsoe with Tom Brady, Packers replaced Brett Favre with Aaron Rodgers, the Cowboys replaced Tony Romo with Dak Prescott, the Chiefs replaced Alex Smith with Patrick Mahomes, and the Ravens replaced Joe Flacco with Lamar Jackson.

Culpepper was coming off a devastating knee injury and wasn't fully healed even in TC. That the Vikings went with Brad Johnson over Culpepper should have been a red flag ...

Excellent take. I think this may be the real issue with Rivers. He likely needed a "QB whisperer" coach like Reid or Payton or Reich, which he's never had. Rivers is the perfect example of how a QB's tendency to make poor decisions can impact team success even when a team has a load of talent and even when the QB has all the physical talent that a great QB needs. I think Marino's success was compromised because Shula essentially abandoned the run game and totally relied on Marino's passing.

Highly unlikely. And now, with McDermott's Bills winning 10 games, clinching a playoff berth with 2 games remaining with the AFCE title realistically possible, and making the playoffs twice in 2 seasons, it's fair to say that McDermott has accomplished more than Marrone as a HC. Back in July, that wasn't the case.

I didn't say he was a better coach. I said that McDermott hadn't accomplished as much as Marrone had as a HC. When I wrote that McDermott had 15-17 coaching record, 1 winning season and a play off loss while Marrone had a record of 31-35 with 2 winning seasons and 2 playoff wins. Barry Switzer took over a talent loaded Cowboys team in 1994, took them to the playoffs 3 straight years, and won a Super Bowl in 1995. His coaching record was 40-24 over 4 seasons but I don't think that even the most die hard Cowboys fan considers him a great HC, just a lucky one.

Sorry, dude, but McDermott has not accomplished more than Marrone at present. Since the Bills have not yet clinched a ten win or a playoff berth, things could still go south for the Bills. It's not likely but manure happens. That's not even counting McDermott coaching the Bills to 2 playoff wins.

Come back later. McDermott has not yet coached a team to more than 9 wins but his 2017 team did make the playoffs, so he's accomplished more than Mularkey. However, Marrone coached Jacksonville to 10 wins, made the playoffs, and has 2 playoff wins, so McDermott hasn't accomplished more than Marrone.

Guys... I said that Rivers was the GOAT of coacher killer QBs, so yeah, the thread title is sort of a joke. Great QBs are expected to have success in critical situations, but Rivers has long been regarded as "great" by many even though he's largely been unsuccessful in critical situations, whether in key regular season games or in the playoffs.

I think that even Bortles, Winston, and Mariota had their options picked up, so you are dead on.

Do they really? Jones looked good early on but the Giants have lost ten games in a row since winning their first 2 games under Jones who hasn't demonstrated much to separate him from other promising young QBs taken high in the draft, a few of whom succeeded but most of whom failed.

This is how I view Rivers, too, and why I view him as a "coach killer". In his early years, the Chargers were loaded with talent. Schottenheimer was fired after the 2006 season, after the Chargers went 14-2 in the regular season but went one and done in the divisional round against NE after Rivers went 14 for 32 for 230 yards, 0 Tds, 1 INT, and Pro Bowl K Nate Kaeding missed a 54 yard FG at the end of the game. GOAT of Coach Killing QBs. Brady -- and Peyton -- aren't in that conversation at all. Stafford has never had a truly great team around him. Rivers did early in his career. The Chargers went to the playoffs 4 straight times between 2006 and 2009, including a 14 win season in 2006 and a 13 win season in 2009.

This was originally posted in the thread on 2019 HCs likely to get axed: It got me to thinking about how Phillip Rivers continually puts up big stats -- and that he's frequently mentioned as a likely future HOFer -- but his teams seems to always disappoint. In his 14 seasons as a starter, Rivers has quarterbacked the Chargers to only 6 playoff appearances and only 5 playoff wins in 11 games. In those 11 playoff games, Rivers threw 14 TDs and 10 INTs. Rivers led only 1 4th quarter comeback and 1 game winning drive in the playoffs. Even when the Chargers have been loaded with talent as they were early in Rivers' career, they failed to live up to expectations by going 1 and done after going 14-2 in the regular season or barely making the playoffs at 8-8 despite Rivers leading the league in TDs (34) and QB rating. Rivers has also led the NFL in INTs twice -- 18 in 2014 (31 TDs) with the Chargers going 9-7 (made playoffs) and 21 in 2016 (33 TDs) with the Chargers going 5-11. Plus, Rivers threw 21 TDs and 15 INTs with Chargers winning 11 games (made playoffs) in 2007; 27 TDs and 20 INTs in 2011 with the Chargers winning 8 games; and 26 TDs and 15 INTs in 2012 with the Chargers winning 7 games. There have always seemed to be excuses for Rivers like a rash of injuries to key players or never having good crowd support because so many opponents' fans filled their temp home in Carson. AFAIK, there's never really been any serious thought among the Chargers FO to move on from him until this year. Rivers has outlasted three HCs -- Marty Schottenheimer, Norv Turner, Mike McCoy -- and Anthony Lynn may be the latest victim of Rivers' special ability to come up short when he needs to whether in the regular or post season. Under Lynn, Rivers seemed to have found new life as a QB, but it seems he's relapsed into his old ways: so far this season, Rivers has thrown 20 TDs and 15 TDs and the Chargers have won 5 of 13 games and are again out of the playoffs. They have lost all of their 8 games by 1 TD or less IIRC. Generally, the idea of a QB who's a "coach killer" is the mediocre guy who's just good enough for the HC to keep thinking that his QB can actually impove "with one more piece" whatever that might be. Rivers, though, has seemed to look good throughout his career -- except, of course, when he really needed to step up and throw a pass to one of his own teammates to win or set up the win. He may be the GOAT of coach killer QBs.

Hold the Bills offense to 10 points or less, get 2 FGs from their offense, and a defensive/ST TD? While I think the Bills D can handle the Steelers' offense, I also think that Pitts D can handle the Bills offense as well. The Pitts D has forced turn overs with regularity since acquiring Minkah Fitzpatrick -- and they certainly have scored more defensive TDs than the Bills D. The Bills ST are below average while the Steelers ST are very good. The Heintz Field crowd is always a big advantage for the Steelers.