transplantbillsfan

Keenum would have sucked under Dennison. #OCsMATTER! ?

Wow... you're desperate for this to not be true. Kinda sad. I've seen these stats in the past with Taylor under center. One of the articles I just posted even shows you a play or two as an example. I'm not doing the searching. You won't believe the sky is blue even if you step outside without a cloud in sight. Have at it, bro. Enjoy your mythology.

Let's make this very very clear... here's the reason I think this is good, not bad: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2016/2015-play-action-offense Who is #1 in play action in any passing play, whatsoever? also... https://www.google.com/amp/s/articles.newyorkupstate.com/buffalo-bills/index.ssf/2017/09/buffalo_bills_secret_weapon_is_the_play-action_pass_says_espn_insider.amp ESPN Insider had Pro Football Focus look at every team's secret weaponthrough three games and it's hard to argue with the analytics site when you see how well Tyrod Taylor has thrown off of play-action pass plays. PFF wrote that no quarterback has a higher rating than Taylor when using play-action. Tyrod Taylor has been impressive again in 2017. Much of that has to do with the damage he can do on the back of the Buffalo running game with play-action passes. Taylor's passer rating when using play-action is 144.1 -- the best in the league -- while his passer rating on plays without a run fake is 84.7. Taylor has a yards-per-attempt average 4 yards higher when using play-action and is completing 78.9 percent of his passes. Taylor's overall stat line this season won't blow anyone away. The Bills' starting quarterback has thrown for 562 yards through three games with four touchdowns and one interception. However, it's apparent that the play-action pass is working for Taylor based on his passer rating, completion percentage and yards-per-attempt average.

Ya know I think some people think Taylor's the dumbest QB to ever play. I've seen posts pretty much directly saying this recently. I'm not going to bother arguing this. There's no point. I don't think Taylor's dumb. He's probably been playing QB for 15-20 years, he's a college graduate and he's been an NFL starter at the most important position for 3 seasons. That doesn't happen for someone who's dumb. Taylor is very much a capable NFL QB. I think Dabol is going to see what Taylor can do physically and then he's going to want to work with him. This doesn't mean work solely with him, it means draft a more talented young QB, work with Taylor for a year, pull Taylor's best year out of him, and then put the more talented rookie in the following year who is even more successful... all the while increasing Dabol's own stock. The system doesn't really require more intelligence than the WCO or Air Coryell after reading up on it because it's very maleable. Yes, it might operate best with a QB who can essentially operate as a coach on the field like Brady or Peyton, but having one of those guys isn't necessary for a successful E-P offense. It just requires an OC who can adjust to what he's working with. And from what I've read, Dabol is pretty good at adjusting to what he has: http://www.cover1.net/offensive-coordinator-brian-daboll-could-bridge-the-college-and-nfl-game-in-buffalo/ "A large playbook is a good thing to have because it makes it much more difficult for opponents to prepare for. But a large playbook must be one that is easy for college and NFL players to learn. It must have a language that is easy to digest and remember. That was evident in this National Championship game. Tagovailoa and Hurts were able to run lots of tempo to tire out the defense, but the simplicity of the scheme gave Tagovailoa the ability to easily call audibles at the line of scrimmage like he does on this play. Tagovailoa checks to outside zone late in the fourth quarter." and "Daboll is able to use creative personnel groupings and looks on offense to confuse defenses, all while making things as easy as possible for his QB and offensive unit as a whole." No worries. You don't see it. Quite possible you need glasses

Not semantics. Clearly you meant something you didn't say. That's fine. Even what you say here is speculative, on your part. No matter. Your perspective is that Tyrod wasn't entrusted very much in the play action pass game and, therefore, he must not be able to do it very well, right? My perspective is that Tyrod was excellent overall when asked to do play action passing over the last 3 years and asking him to do something he excelled at more rather than less would be a good thing rather than a bad thing for the passing game.

These aren't semantics, it's something that you said that's just patently false. His body of work says Tyrod is most successful in play action passes, which is not an insignificant amount of passes. You said this offense relies heavily on play action passes and you said Tyrod can't execute them. You were wrong. There's nothing wrong with being wrong every once in awhile. Did you mean something else? Then maybe you weren't wrong, maybe you're just bad at putting what you think into words. I get that you don't like Tyrod, but it seems to be clouding your view of him.

Well you're just going to have a conversation with yourself, apparently, because it doesn't seem like you're even reading what I say. Enjoy your offseason. For your health's sake I hope Tyrod isn't back next year, even though I think this hire makes it more rather than less likely. Never put it up. Wife wouldn't let me

You want to argue he didn't do it much now? Dude, you just said "inability to execute" in the post I responded to. Are you now changing your argument because you were dead wrong? That assertion that I initially made is wrong because Tyrod has been most effective out of play action from under center over his 3 years as a Bill. There are stats out there that support that. I know last offseason that Cover1.net had those numbers pretty comprehensively fleshed out. It's just really weird if you actually believed that. Don't know, do you? This is a pointless argument, anyway. If Tyrod is gone I really don't care as long as we upgrade. If Tyrod is still under center in 2018 I think some of you guys are going to jump off a cliff.

Well the problem is we don't know what the heck TT was allowed to change or not change pre-snap. You can refuse to buy the what Dennison did or did not tell Taylor he could or could not do to change a play, but we had quotes mid season that audible abilities were limited for Taylor by Dennison. And before everyone just wildly assumes that all other NFL QBs have free reign at audibles, even 1st ballot HOFers can be limited by a stubborn OC. After the Steelers loss last week there was the obvious question of why not run a QB sneak on 4th and short. Big Ben said "It's been a while since we've run the quarterback sneak, I'm for it, but it's kinda over my head why we don't do it. I'm not going to second guess why we don't run the quarterback sneak. I don't know." I also heard a snippet of him on a radio show this week that it's not even possible for him to do it at the line because the verbiage isn't even there to communicate it to the other 10 guys on offense.

Ummm... what??? Have you actually watched Taylor play? https://www.google.com/amp/billswire.usatoday.com/2017/10/02/bills-film-room-tyrod-taylor-play-action-falcons/amp/ Bills film room: Tyrod Taylor torched Falcons with play action passes

Depends on the combo. I think Andy Dalton is better because of AJ Green more than the other way around. Hell, Tyrod was better with Sammy. Don't know much, again, about Ridley, but sounds like he could come in and be immediately productive at WR. Because...?

Well I said draft a QB, too. Regardless, Deonte Thompson was our best WR this year by far and he ended up with by far the best year of his career. You wanna blame Tyrod for Jones's rookie yips and half a Kelvin Benjamin? Be my guest. Good stuff... thanks... and I see Buffalo as a potential fit even before we got Dabol.

All fair. I still respectfully disagree. And I made sure to read up more on the system. It just sounds like a system that is built to be spectacular and historic under a great QB like Brady and pretty good or better under a capable QB. I'm guessing we're going to disagree that Tyrod is a capable QB, so no need to quibble over something we're never going to agree on. But some more stuff I found: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bigblueview.com/platform/amp/2016/7/15/12188564/summer-school-erhardt-perkins-offense-belichick-weis-parcells-brady-patriots "Fairbanks was a defensive specialist, so he entrusted the offensive side of the ball to Erhardt and Perkins who developed a quarterback-friendly system of passing. Their focus was on a run-first offense and a simplified passing game helped them dedicate their attention where they felt it was needed. The Erhardt-Perkins offense was born." and "The QB only has to remember the shape of the route combinations to understand the play, regardless of personnel in the huddle. Add to this the ability to run the ball out of any of these plays, and the offense can easily run the same play multiple times in a series with minimal worry. The simplicity gives the offense a huge advantage in no-huddle situations, while also maintaining disguises when they want to substitute personnel." and http://baltimoresportsandlife.com/erhardt-perkins-system-part-2/ "Simple to learn, simple to run, easy to call on the fly, hard to defend. It has evolved over the years from coaches Bill Parcells, Marty Schottenheimer, Bill Cowher, Bill Belichick and all his disciples. Consider the fact that Charlie Weis turned Brady Quinn and Jimmy Claussen into 1st and 2nd round picks with this system at Notre Dame." and "In the E-P system, there are no requirements, except for a competent quarterback. Any team in any system will take that. Joe Flacco is certainly a competent QB. You don’t have to worry about missing one guy and the system failing because of it." and "You can’t help but shake your head in awe at times when watching guys like Manning and Brady operate. They make it look so easy. They make it look easy because apparently, it is easier in their systems. Brown made mention in his article that a play-call in the Air Coryell system the Ravens run might sound like, “Scatter-Two Bunch-Right-Zip-Fire 2 Jet Texas Right-F Flat X-Q.” In the EP system, one word the Patriots use is “ghost” which a two man route combination, or “tosser” which is a three man route combination. That’s how these up tempo offense operate so smoothly. Brady is coming to the line shouting just two words, and everyone knows what they’re doing. It’s so much easier for the players to memorize, enabling them to get on the same page faster if unexpectedly called upon" and "The E-P system is a simple one. Take what the defense will give you. You can be a power running team one week, a spread out air raid offense the next, a balanced attack that keeps teams guessing the week after that. You can put up points in a hurry, or slow the pace down to a crawl. It doesn’t need specific personnel. Since specific types of players aren’t required, it opens up more possibilities when drafting players or signing free agents." and then I found this https://247sports.com/nfl/baltimore-ravens/Board/102967/Contents/Erhardt-Perkins-Offensive-Philosophy-70429781 "No one asked, but I would vote for Erhardt-Perkins because it's easier to learn, and you get different looks without changing the reads. It's also easier to make changes at the line of scrimmage, which is good if you want an up-tempo style. Mike McCoy, brought it to the Chargers last year, and got a playoff season with Tim Tebow using it in Denver." So it made me look up how McDaniels was using it in Denver with Tebow... the descriptions in these 2 articles use Orton as the intended QB, but Tebow would take over in week 5 and lead the team to a 7-5 record in the rest of his starts and a playoff win http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/fat-camp-the-erhardt-perkins-offense-part- "The EP is particularly known for using a lot of trapping and pulling by the offensive line. A dedication to running the ball was a traditional part of the system" and "The EP has often been linked with the Air Coryell offense to combine the aggression of a powerful running game with the constant threat to the defense of a deep pass. It’s a system that’s based in an aggressive, hostile take-no-prisoners approach to the game" and http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/fat-camp-the-erhardt-perkins-offense-part-2 "McDaniels did in setting up his own preferences with some pretty standard EP principles - motion on the OL and both pulling and trapping, with aggressive run formations and scheme and a power running game that also protects the QB. " and "In terms of passing, the EP commonly uses a Coryell-based vertical passing attack that creates the time for those plays to develop (among other options) by freezing the D momentarily with play-action passing. Orton is particularly good there, and that may give him time to work through his progressions, which he can be slow at sometimes." Plenty more to read about. I don't think Tyrod is in any long term plans because I'm convinced we're going to draft a QB in the 1st. I don't think we're going to make a run at Cousins because of the cost and fact that he's never going to likely be better than a fringe top 10 QB. I don't think we make a run at Smith because he's really just not much better than Tyrod and we'd have to trade for him, though given McDermott's relationship with Reid it's certainly possible. I think this staff wants "their guy" to draft and groom and mold. And the rookie might just be thrust in as the starter right away. Who knows? Regardless of who our QB is, I'm really excited to see Dabol's iteration of this system because it appears to be a system a QB can have pretty immediate success with

Wasn't that similar to Julio Jones when he was at Alabama? Will Ridley just fall because Hurts was throwing to him or is it just not remotely similar to Julio?

Still disagree. The biggest knock regarding Taylor has been going through his progressions post snap. This system makes all the post snap stuff much easier for the QB because it sets the QB up with knowledge pre snap of precisely where his guys will be on every play and the system seems largely predicated on knowing where you're going with the ball before the snap. When Taylor has known where he's going with the football before the snap, he's been pretty decisive and accurate. When that 1st read is taken away, as that first article discusses, the WCO and Coryell systems might have different routes in different places on any given play whereas this system seems to set it up so guys are consistently in the same places depending on the passing concept, for which there can be as few or as many as an OC wants to include. That's the way I understand it, at least.

I just saw Daniel Jeremiah mocked him to the Panthers right after our picks in the first. I'm pretty convinced we're going to trade up in the 1st for a QB, but then I thought about how terrible our WRs were last year, realized after reading about Dabol's new system that the real difficulty is actually largely the skill position players rather than the QB adapting to the system, and then saw this mock (without really ever having watched him) knowing that he just played in Dabol's system last year and that the transition might be relatively seamless for him. Of course at this point not a chance we get Darnold or Rosen or probably Allen so how about Mayfield or Rudolph in the 1st with our 1st pick and Ridley with our 2nd? Hell, that might even be with a trade up to get the QB by giving up one of our 2nds and maybe a 5th, but what do you guys think of Ridley?

Big Ben is/was/and always will be better by a zillion than Bortles, yet the Jags beat the Steelers. Football is a Team sport

I disagree with your assessment, at least based on what I read in these articles. It seems like the E-P system is designed for success for just about any capable QB. But I also disagree that people are saying anything like "Tyrod is a fit" for this system in the sense that other QBs aren't. I think the point of the system is that it's designed to work for any QB but seems to require more intelligent skill position players who need to know all the formations, which is why I said it wouldn't surprise me if the Bills go out and try to get Burkhead, Lewis, Bolden, Amendola, or Slater when the Patriots inevitably let one or two of those UFAs walk in FA in a couple months. But regarding the QB specifically: http://grantland.com/features/how-terminology-erhardt-perkins-system-helped-maintain-dominance-tom-brady-patriots/ “In essence, you’re running the same play,” said Perkins. “You’re just giving them some window-dressing to make it look different.” The biggest advantage of the concept-based system is that it operates from the perspective of the most critical player on offense: the quarterback. In other systems, even if the underlying principles are the exact same, the play and its name might be very different. Rather than juggling all this information in real time, an Erhardt-Perkins quarterback only has to read a given arrangement of receivers. “You can cut down on the plays and get different looks from your formations and who’s in them. It’s easier for the players to learn. It’s easier for the quarterback to learn,” former Patriots offensive coordinator Charlie Weis said back in 2000. “You get different looks without changing his reads. You don’t need an open-ended number of plays.” This simplicity is one of the reasons coaches around the league have been gravitating to the Erhardt-Perkins approach. and For many years, the Erhardt-Perkins offense was known as the original ground-and-pound, a conservative, run-first offense summed up by Erhardt’s mantra, “You throw to score and run to win.” The theory here is that no matter the formation, there is an outside receiver, an inside receiver, and a middle receiver, and each will be responsible for running his designated route. For the quarterback, this means the play can be run repeatedly, from different formations and with different personnel, all while his read stays effectively the same. Once receivers understand each concept, they only have to know at which position they’re lined up. The personnel and formation might cause the defense to respond differently, but for New England those changes only affect which side Brady prefers or which receiver he expects to be open. I don't know what happens, but I think cover_1.net pretty much nails my feelings about what's going on at OBD and what's going to unfold this season with Taylor: http://www.cover1.net/should-he-stay-or-should-he-go-qb-tyrod-taylor/ ...after the hire of Daboll as the team’s new OC, I think Tyrod’s odds to come back for his 4th year with the Bills just got higher. Tyrod clearly wasn’t a fit for Dennison’s scheme since the beginning. His struggles with the quick 3- and 5-step dropback passes were clear from the preseason. Dennison made adjustments during the season, using a lot of play action roll out plays to put Tyrod in space, but his offense never fully worked with Taylor as the QB. Now with Daboll, everything seemingly changes. Daboll likes to run the ball with power concepts, has experience working with a top college dual-threat QB in Jalen Hurts, and will surely know how to maximize Taylor’s skill set. Greg Roman and Anthony Lynn showed the Bills can have a top-10 offense with Taylor at the helm, and Tyrod surely showed Sean McDermott and GM Brandon Beane that he’s a model of a pro, a true blue collar presence in the locker room, always working hard and being a good soldier, even when things didn’t go well for him. He can be a limited passer, but it’s obvious a rookie QB can benefit a lot having a true pro like Taylor around. To this regime character matters, and Tyrod is impeccable in this department.

This is an idiotic post. What evidence do you have that Taylor is stupid? Besides, these articles really emphasize how QB friendly they are. To me, looks easier for the QB to grasp and harder for the other players to grasp. So, I wonder if the Bills, having brought Dabol in, will try to get one of NE's UFAs at one of the skill positions to be there to help teach the other Bills skill players. I see that NE has 3 UFA RBs in Burkhead, Lewis, and Bolden and 2 UFA WRs in Slater and Amendola. I wouldn't be surprised if one of those 5 guys are in a Bills uniform next year.

5 for 5 for 25 yards efficiently and effectively sucks. So poor example. No agenda at all. Replace Tyrod. Upgrade over him. Please. I'm really looking forward to seeing that happen at the end of April, possibly sooner. I just get annoyed by people who make stuff up. Taylor is better than Bortles. Maybe down the road Bortles gets better, maybe not. But right now Taylor's clearly better. Folks with agendas are some of those frothing at the mouth in this thread and that other ridiculous thread about Kornheiser's comments. Particularly guys like the OP, who appears to have been banned for the 2nd time under a new name.

Do the stats show differently because you're looking at raw production rather than efficiency?

Great overall post, but in reading both of these articles I'm seeing the likelihood of Tyrod being under center for one more year more likely rather than less likely. You say yourself that this system "makes it easier for the QB." I'm really not going to be surprised by anything this offseason, but I feel like those people talking Cousins or Smith as our QB in 2018 are talking very distant possibilities. Smith is certainly much more possible than Cousins, who is just a pipe dream, IMO. Regardless... draft a guy in the 1st!

I think Daboll is eager to work with whatever rookie QB we're inevitably going to draft in the 1st, but knows that for 2018, if necessary, Tyrod is a helluva lot better passer than the QB who just led Alabama up to the National Championship game. PS: Tua for 2020!!!

Yep. This system actually seems to be very adaptable to whatever QB is running the system. I guess that's the appeal.