Logic

AP voter Lindsay Jones explains her reasoning for voting for Josh Allen for MVP: https://www.theringer.com/2025/02/07/nfl/josh-allen-nfl-mvp-lamar-jackson-vote-splitting Lamar Jackson vs. Josh Allen was a true MVP debate for the ages—the type the NFL hasn’t seen since Steve McNair and Peyton Manning split the award for the 2003 season. When Jackson was overwhelmingly voted the first-team quarterback on the Associated Press All-Pro team last month, it seemed like a pretty clear indication of how the greatest debate of the season would end. But in the most stunning MVP result in years, it was Allen, not Jackson, who took the MVP trophy home on Thursday night at the NFL Honors ceremony in New Orleans. It is Allen’s first MVP award. Jackson has previously won it twice, for the 2019 and 2023 seasons. It was the first time since 1987 that QBs split the MVP and All-Pro honors outright (that year, John Elway won MVP while Joe Montana was the All-Pro). Allen received 27 first-place votes, 22 second-place votes, and one third-place vote, for a total of 383 points in the AP’s ranked-choice voting system. Jackson received 23 first-place votes, 26 second-place votes, and one fourth-place vote, for 362 total points. Eagles running back Saquon Barkley finished third, with 120 points. (No voters picked Barkley as their MVP, but he had one second-place vote and 25 for third place.) For comparison, Jackson received 30 first-team All-Pro votes, to 18 for Allen. Cincinnati’s Joe Burrow also received two first-team All-Pro votes. The AP’s Rob Maaddi, who oversees the voting process, told me that both of the Burrow All-Pro voters picked Jackson for MVP. “I was pretty surprised, yeah,” Allen said at his news conference Thursday night. “Given what we know about how typically voting goes. Lamar was very deserving of this award as well. I’ve got nothing but love and respect for his game. He’s a great steward of the game, and every time we share a field, I’m very fortunate to be mentioned in the same breath as him.” That means nine voters split their votes—picking Jackson for All-Pro, and Allen for MVP. One of those voters was me. I’ve been on the AP’s voting panel for NFL awards for at least 10 years, and never have I agonized over my MVP ballot more than I did this season. I spent hours rewatching games and the All 22, pouring over advanced metrics and talking to people I trust on football matters. My poor, patient husband listened to me talk myself in circles as I paced around the house, working my way through my decision during that first week of January. My stomach was in knots as I filled out my award ballot, and I remember exhaling when I hit send. Voting for these NFL awards and the Pro Football Hall of Fame is an honor I take extremely seriously. All I ever want is to have done my homework so I can feel confident in my vote, be transparent about my process, and be able to defend it. One of the biggest gripes about the MVP award in the past decade is that it’s essentially become the Best Quarterback award. We can try to make a case that a skill position player has a season special enough to enter the conversation, like Barkley did this season, but we all know it’ll take something truly historic (and an exceptionally down year for quarterback play) for a non-QB to ever win this award again. (For the record, I had Barkley third on my ballot, behind Allen and Jackson.) Ultimately, this year it came down to the two quarterbacks, and it felt impossible to choose. I am confident that (a) both Jackson and Allen were deserving of the league’s highest individual honor, and (b) MVP is not strictly an award for the best quarterback, so voting one of them for All-Pro didn’t mean he automatically had to be my MVP. The phrasing of “Most Valuable” is extremely vague, and open to plenty of interpretation of what it actually means. To me, the MVP award is open to narrative considerations, a player’s career arc, the roster decisions made around him, and expectations for any particular season, in a way that—again, to me—All-Pro voting is not. In considering (and considering and considering) Jackson vs. Allen, I opened myself up to the possibility that some great quarterback plays and moments carried more weight than others this season. Allen finished the season with 3,731 passing yards and 28 touchdowns, along with 513 rushing yards and 12 scores on the ground. Jackson’s numbers were eye-popping: 4,172 passing yards and 41 touchdowns, and 915 rushing yards and four TDs on the ground. So splitting my ballot was my way of acknowledging that Jackson played quarterback better than anyone this season, while Allen was the defining, and yes, most valuable, football character of the regular season. When I think back on the 2024 regular season, it was Allen whose best plays lead the highlight reel—his passing-turned-receiving touchdown against San Francisco in the snow, his fourth-down touchdown run against Kansas City that helped Buffalo hand the Chiefs their only meaningful loss of the season, and his roll-out deep dart to Keon Coleman in a December shootout against Detroit. This wasn’t Allen’s best statistical season in many areas—his total yardage, passing touchdowns, and passer rating were all down from a peak in 2020, and that was certainly a valid argument against him, especially since Jackson outperformed his two previous MVP seasons. But I don’t think it’s hard to make the case that this was Allen’s most impactful season as the Bills’ quarterback. His counting stats were down in large part because of a philosophical shift in the Buffalo offense, not because he suddenly got worse at passing. Allen was always able to turn on the superhero switch when he wanted to and when the Bills needed a clutch play, but in 2024, the Bills’ first option wasn’t “hey Josh, just go do something.” The result was the most efficient version of Allen we’ve ever seen, with career highs in adjusted net yards per attempt, QBR and expected points added (EPA) per dropback. Allen also had better luck on turnovers this season. He had career lows in interceptions (six) and fumbles (five). He also took a career-low number of sacks. If his perceived recklessness with the football was one thing that had held him back from serious MVP consideration in the past, well, he answered that question this season. And he did it while leading the Bills to the no. 2 seed in the AFC in what most of us thought would be a reset year for Buffalo after the Bills traded away star wide receiver Stefon Diggs and moved on from several prominent defensive players in cost-saving moves. Value is impossible to cleanly define, but Allen earned this award. It felt impossible to choose, and nearly as hard to justify, but I stand by it. There was no voter fatigue for me, no boredom in a repeat winner, or hesitancy to pick Jackson for a third time. I understand that plenty of people will not agree with this decision-making process, including many of my peers and fellow voters. Maybe some of them felt voting for Jackson was an easy call, and I get it: He was electrifying, and took his already incredible game to a new level. His stats are undeniable. I’m not sure there would have been an entirely satisfying outcome, though I suppose it feels fitting that an MVP race that felt so tight during the season remained so until the very (surprising) end. End of article

I like Crosby. I would be happy to acquire him. The question posited was "what puts Buffalo over the top", and to me, Garrett is the only answer. Crosby would be a nice addition. As would DJ Reed. As would Tee Higgins or (insert free agent you like here). But putting them OVER THE TOP? To me, that's a game wrecker. And the only game wrecker I see realistically available (albeit via trade rather than free agency) is Myles Garrett. He is on a Hall of Fame trajectory, and is smack dab in the middle of his prime (unlike the last pass rusher we paid a premium price to add to the roster). While other additions would improve this roster, Garrett would TRANSFORM it.

There's one answer: Myles Garrett. /Thread.

Voters got it right. Josh as MVP and Lamar as 1st team All Pro is exactly what it should've been.

HELL YES!!! From "most overrated" to League MVP! You love to see it! Absolutely huge for Josh. Things like this matter for legacies and HOF resumes. Congratulations, Josh Allen! WELL DESERVED!!!

I like that the Bills have hired a new assistant DL coach and senior defensive assistant. To me, it shows that they know there's room for improvement and that they are not just being complacent, going into next season with no changes to the defensive staff (or, potentially, scheme). If you're a "status quo isn't working" guy, then this hire (and the assistant DL coach hire) constitute good news.

They get Andy Reid We get Sean McDermott They get Steve Spagnuolo We get guys named Leslie and Bobby They get Patrick Mahomes We get Country Patrick Mahomes with occasional 1st and 4th quarter sugar insanity They get the biggest pop star in the world, Taylor Swift We get the voice of Spiderman's girlfriend in a cartoon, Hailee Steinfeld They get to bang a big, cool drum and do Native war chants We get a wailing train whistle that made my Pappy go deaf in one ear the time we sat in the 300s I tell ya, life ain't fair.

I was planning to make this exact post at some point this offseason. We all know Joe Brady can coordinate a successful egalitarian offense. One where "everybody eats" and the ball is spread around and different players are featured each week. But can he, if necessary, feature a WR1 and maximize the talents and production of that player? When the Bills hit a week where "everybody eats" isn't working, or where the optimal strategy would be to exploit a certain advantageous WR vs CB matchup over and over again, does Brady have the goods? When the offense hits a lull or Josh Allen is in a "gotta have it" 3rd and long, does Brady's playbook feature a page that says "WR1's best plays"? I've heard it said again and again that in crunch time, in the big moments, playcallers should think players, not plays. They should have the ability to say "this is an Amari Cooper down", for instance, and then have a handful of plays they know that player excels on. People can question Diggs' ability and effort level in his last year here. People can wonder if Amari Cooper's wrist hurt him more than he let on or if he's lost a step. But me? I think the notion that Brady may not be able to effectively feature one pass catcher in a purposeful and productive way is a viable notion to ponder. He has not yet shown he is able to do so, and until he does, it's a legitimate question.

Fine with it. Specifically, using 1st and 2nd round pick(s) to acquire marquee players. I (and many others) have been saying for several offseasons now that Josh doesn't have enough difference makers around him. McDermott said as much in his end-of-season presser. Given the Beane's mediocre recent track record with 1st and 2nd round picks anyway, I'm fine with using them to acquire a star veteran (Garrett, Crosby, etc) instead. You can still use your mid and late round picks (which Beane seems better at turning into good players anyway) for depth. Those premium picks, though? If you can turn them into a star player and difference maker, you do it.

Yeah this quote from GoldenWheels is a great point. The typical mode of meal conception and preparation for most people is to think of a meal they want to make, then buy the ingredients to make it. With CSAs, I've found that it's more helpful to be able to work backwards. That is, to see what you get in your produce haul, and then to conceive or find dishes to prepare based on what ingredients you have on hand. It can also be helpful to have (or gain) a passable knowledge of food preservation, be it canning, pickling, or making preserves, so that if you have, say, too much red onion, you can pickle a bunch and freeze it rather than throw it away. Not necessary, but helpful!

Maybe he can help the linemen with their "block destruction technique"

Have done, yes. Very much worth it, in my opinion, BUT.... It can be A LOT of produce. It can particularly be a lot to deal with in, say, the winter months, when the produce you're receiving is not as attractive and easy to work with as what you're getting in the spring and summer. My best advice, if you do it, is to either share it with another family/friends, or to ensure that you know ahead of time the AMOUNT of food you'll be receiving with each share. Some companies that do this have different sizes of order you can get each time, etc. Aside from ensuring that you're receiving a reasonable amount of food (what good is it if you throw a bunch away?), I can't recommend it highly enough. It'll bring a bunch of delicious, diverse produce into your house that will superior from and oftentimes DIFFERENT from what you'd get at the store. And it'll likely diversify your cooking and force you to learn how to use some things you're not familiar with using. And on top of all THAT, you're also supporting local farmers, which is always a win. As long as you're willing to be a little adventurous and flexible (and do a little research as to quantities being sent), I say "give it a go"!

If the Bills run this same WR corps back (even with Amari), I'll weep. They need some guys that can actually separate. They need it badly.

The more time that's passed since this trade, the worse it looks. It has come out that the Mavs GM did not shop Luka AT ALL to anyone other than the Lakers. He just directly called up his buddy, Lakers GM Rob Pelinka, and made the deal. Didn't solicit ANY other offers or shop the guy around. NBA execs are adamant that the Mavs could've gotten waaaay more. Surely multiple 1st round picks AND good players. Also, if you don't love Luka's conditioning and reliability from a health perspective, that's one thing, but then trading him for ANTHONY DAVIS doesn't make a lick of sense. Any way you look at it, it appears to be five alarm roster malpractice. Somewhat akin to Brandon Beane trading Josh Allen for Jalen Ramsey and a 2027 1st without soliciting any other offers from any other teams. Insane.

The player I wish the Bills could have on an affordable one-year deal is Adam Thielen. Everyone can say what they want about his age, but the dude showed last year he can still ball. He can also play outside. I'm not suggesting he'd be "the" answer or anything, but I think he could make some noise with Josh for a season. You'd think he'd want to end his career somewhere other than a Carolina rebuild.

I feel like the Bills already have a plethora of talented middle-of-the-field guys in Shakir, Kincaid, and Knox. Curtis Samuel is arguably at his best in the slot. Many (including myself) think Coleman's best chance at sustained success may come as a big slot. In some ways, it feels like talented middle-of-the-field guys are ALL they have. What they DON'T have is an ass-kicking outside receiver who can add explosiveness, take the top off a defense, and open things up for those middle-of-the-field guys. I don't think adding Cooper Kupp changes that. If we added Kupp, we'd be going from a team that can win over the middle of the field but needs major outside help to...a team that can win over the middle of the field but needs major help outside. Simply put: While Kupp CAN play outside, he is primarily a slot guy, and more slot guys are not what the Bills need.

I just checked the WR thread from pre-draft last year to see what I was advocating for. At the time, I proposed trading our 1st and 2nd in that draft plus our 1st and 2nd this year if need be in order to get into range for Harrison, Nabers, Odunze, etc. People called me crazy. They probably still would. Who knows if it would've been enough anyway. I'd still make that move. Having Mack Hollins lead our team in touchdown catches did not talk me down from my crazy perch.

Where we picked, no. Trading up five or six spots doesn't seem like it would have been a prohibitively expensive thing to do. Of course we have no way of knowing which teams, if any, ahead of us were willing to trade with us. We certainly had the draft capital ammunition to do so, though.

I felt like the "big three" last year was actually a "big four", ending with Brian Thomas. I advocated for either trading up for one of the big four, or, if they stayed where they were, drafting Xavier Worthy or Troy Franklin. I wanted to add explosiveness and deep speed on the outside to open up the middle of the field for Kincaid, Knox, and Shakir. I figured there was no way Thomas would reasonably fall far enough for the Bills to have a legit shot at trading up for him. Once he fell as far as he did, I had my fingers crossed HOPING the Bills would make the move, but doubting that Beane was in a "trading up" kind of mood. Which, as it turns out, he wasn't. The funny thing is that with as far as BTJ ended up falling, I doubt it would've really taken all that much to move up for him. But EVEN IF it took a 2nd round pick and more, I'd have done it. Depth is great and all, but a WR1 like BTJ was worth the risk. I'm not giving up hope on Coleman, but he has miles to go to be anywhere near what BTJ already is.

In retrospect, I don't think there's a single Bills fan who wouldn't have been okay giving up an additional high pick or two to move up five spots for this guy. Would've given Josh a locked-in high end #1 with size, speed, and explosiveness for the next decade. I get that Beane felt the roster needed to be rebuilt with depth last offseason and was thus hesitant to give up draft capital, but no one can convince me that Coleman plus, say, Dewayne Carter and another mid round pick would be worth more to this team's championship pursuits than a bona fide alpha WR1.

I think this is the key sentence right here. I agree that this loss -- as most of our playoff losses have been -- was on all aspects of the team: coaches, players, and front office. The coaches didn't coach well enough, the players didn't play well enough and, in my estimation, the personnel was just lacking enough in key areas that that also played a part in the game outcome. But when you say the coaches need to strategize like pros, not like high school coaches, to me, you're speaking exactly to the heart of the matter of what this thread is about! In other words, you've got me wondering if we're on the same page, but stating it differently and arguing over semantic differences. The need for the coaches to coach better (specifically better defense, in my opinion) is what precipitated this thread to begin with. I have not in this thread advocated for firing McDermott, replacing Babich, completely overhauling our scheme, or anything of the sort. I have simply wondered why we seem to fail so consistently as a defensive unit in our five season-ending playoff losses under Sean McDermott. "Coaching" can be one of the over-arching answers, but there's more fine detail within that answer, and those are the suggestions for improvement I was seeking. Put differently: I know that you believe ardently that Sean McDermott is a "Growth mindset" guy and is always relentlessly self-scouting, always learning and growing, always improving. Well, the defensive outcomes every time we play the Chiefs in the playoffs don't seem to show much growth, much improvement, or anything other than "deja vu all over again". So that's my question: What's the lesson? What are the specific areas for growth? How can we ensure this doesn't keep happening?

Respectfully, I think it says more than that. There seems to be a lot of "hey, Mahomes and the Chiefs are really good, there's no shame in giving up a lot of points to them" going around in this thread. I don't think the recent actual performance of the Chiefs offense matches their lofty reputation, nor excuses the Bills defense from playing so poorly against them in the playoffs. In the most recent playoff game, for instance, the Bills allowed the Chiefs to score the most points they had all season long. It was the only time they scored more than 30 points the entire season. Should we be okay with that just because "they're the Chiefs"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like I'm seeing a lot of fatalism and resignation in this thread regarding the Chiefs. That they're just going to score lots of points every year, and there's nothing we can do about it. As if we don't have a defensive minded head coach who's been spending years trying to figure out how to stop them. Yes, as you say, the coaches need to coach better and the players need to play better. If they do so, wouldn't one of the logical results be better defensive performance? So that's the point of this thread. What can the Bills do better from a coaching and execution standpoint to stop this from happening year after year after year? To stop being so absolutely futile in the playoffs defensively? Saying "coach better and play better", well...yeah. Sure. Of course. I suppose I was trying to dig a little deeper than that.

For those saying this thread is bogus...has this graph been shown yet? I mean...

I could be wrong -- and I'm happy to be corrected if someone can verify that I am -- but I feel like our d-line is way too vanilla in its rush scheme the vast majority of the time. That is: loops, stunts, games, etc.....we don't seem to do them at nearly the clip that other good defenses do. If you wanna be a "get home with your front four and not rely on the blitz" team, fine, but then you'd better have a darn good front four, and you'd better at least let those four do some different things up front in terms of how they rush. The Bills neither have a great front four NOR employ them very creatively most of the time. Also, not directly on topic, but a side note: The Bills defense is generally awful at blitzing. So often, when the Bills DO blitz in key moments, it's awkward and ineffective and rarely seems to get home in a meaningful way. Watching Spags employ killer blitzes at key moments in the playoffs, knowing that we NEVER seem to be able to do it, is wildly frustrating. You're telling me Spags is THAT much of a superior defensive mind to Sean McDermott? You're telling me McDermott doesn't have any killer blitzes of his own in his ol' bag of tricks?

Can anyone verify if the below Tweet is true? If it IS true, it is surely THE primary reason that Josh Allen doesn't have a ring yet. For a defensive minded head coach who relentlessly preaches accountability, self-scouting, and growth mindset, this is just mind numbingly bad. Unforgivable, even. What needs to happen for this to change?