GunnerBill
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The other point in Detroit is that even though it might be largely Schwartz's scheme he wasn't the guy calling the plays. I know he will have had the ability to override Cunningham if he had wanted to, but no Head Coach is going to trust a DC and then overrule him on every big call. I wouldn't be surprised to see them go for a DE in the draft, but I think they probably see Lawson and Branch on obvious running downs and Hughes in passing situations as adequate if, admittedly, not absolutely ideal.
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A kinda nice Bills related Sunday evening (well it is over here) story I thought I'd share with TBD.
I'm a semi-pro soccer coach in the UK and I'm the Assistant Head Coach of a team for whom the soccer season finished on Saturday. Our intention at the start of the season was to win the league and gain promotion to the level above, however, our two biggest competitors have a budget that way outstrips ours.
Despite this for 36 games of a 38 game season our destiny was in our own hands, until we lost last week to one of the two big budget teams that left us third out of 20, but behind both the big budget teams going into our final two games. We went into Saturday needing to win our game and needing the two above us to fail to win. However, despite winning 3-0 the other two won as well and we finished an incredible season with a record points tally and a record goals tally for any team ever to not get promoted from our league in 3rd position. 1 point behind the champions.
When we got back into our locker room the players were obviously devastated having slogged their guts out for 7 months and 38 games, especially as the flooding here over Christmas meant a fixture backlog that left us playing our final 12 games in 25 days (and these are part time players who play around their other jobs). The Head Coach started his end of season speech but was pretty emotional and a bit lost for words so I took over to help him out... and you know in that moment when I really didn't know what to say one thing came into my head....
"Fight on my men Sir Andrew said,
A little I'm hurt but not yet slain,
I'll just lay down and bleed a while,
And then I'll rise and fight again."
So I told them the story of the 1990 Buffalo Bills, the missed kick and Marv's famous poem. The reaction to it was pretty amazing and if we can respond from the adversity and disappointment the way Marv's Bills did we will be very well served next season. And for Marv to remember that obscure old Scottish poem in such a moment of utter professional devastation I think tells you something about the genius of the man.
EDIT: And one of our players who said he started watching a few NFL games for the first time last season but didn't have a team told me he is going to root for the Bills from now on..... I did advise him of the last 14 years but he seems pretty set.....
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Not always, no. But a lot of the time it was.
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We got there with 4 a lot last year. I don't know the percentages but a lot of our pressure was generated by our front not by blitzing all the time. There were some really clever blitzes that resulted in sacks I don't deny that and I think they tend to stick in the minds of fans more, but we were not throwing exotic blitzes left, right and centre.
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Incognito is a punk, but was a solid guard. What is not talked about enough is I believe Martin has a problem. He was weak minded and allowed this to get out of hand. He could have stood up to Incognito early, or talked to a coach. It would have stopped.
Ahhh. Now we are into blame the victim territory. Nice.
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I don't think it is more scheme than players, and I'm pretty sure Mike Pettine said something very similar last off-season. Also we didn't blitz a whole amount last year. We lined up with generally 4 down linemen and they beat their guys and penetrated. There was the Nickel blitz that we used to good effect on a number of occasions, but it wasn't exotic blitz after exotic blitz. It was about doing just enough scheme wise to give guys 1v1 opportunities and then letting them do the rest. As long as Schwartz sticks to that kind of philosophical starting point I'm confident he will run a successful defense.
EDIT: Agree with the above... I think fewer sacks... somewhere mid to late 40s probably but on the flip side more consistent run D. That's my expectation anyway.
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I do get the feeling that I am going to be saying "Wow" at least once about the Bills strategy on draft weekend. Not necessarily in a good or bad way but I think they are going to do something a little unexpected. If they stay at #9 and select Taylor Lewan I'd be surprised.
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Again, it may be the case, but none of that necessarily rises to the level of intentional and systematic breaking down of another. I'll share an anecdote to illustrate:
When I was in HS we nick named one of our friends PB (kitty Boy), which in fairness he earned, but he carried that throughout HS. Another friend was nicknamed "Dupe" Because he'd buy anything, & we told him repeatedly of the sexual exploits we intended to have with his sister. One of my best friends was Iranian & I can't tell you the number of camel !@#$er jokes we laid on him. None of it was mean spirited (w/ the possible exception of PB), and no one was being" remorselessly broken down," but to an independent third party reading transcripts of our interactions one might erroneously draw that conclusion.
The difference is no one had a meltdown. I did have a friend as an adult who flipped out & stormed off because we made fun of his Halo prowess (which was somewhat ongoing). It was !@#$ing weird and no one saw it building to that.
Again, I'm not saying whether these guys knew or should have known that Martin was crumbling underneath it all, but guys !@#$ with each other. Granted, these guys took it a little further than most, but they're also high testosterone alpha males (and apparently an obnoxious bunch at that) playing the most physical position of a very physicAl sport. Based on that evidence I can't say, but it's plausible they didn't realize the affect it was having on Martin until it was too late.
I'm afraid that your anecdote really doesn't add anything. I've been clear before that I've spent the last 15 years in semi-professional soccer locker rooms. I don't need telling how groups of guys are with one another. If this had just been the sister jokes (as distasteful as I find them and certainly in any locker room I've been involved in with any team as player or coach family has been off limits) then I could have believed that it was just banter that got a bit out of hand. But as I said above, the pattern of the behaviour, the numerous corroborating accounts, the fact that it went on and seemed to escalate over 18 months, the fact that Incognito himself knew how damning the fines book was.... I'm sorry I find it implausible that it wasn't more than some joshing taken a stage too far. It was relentless.
As for did they know how much it was effecting Jonathan Martin? Maybe they didn't, I'm willing to accept that is much more open to interpretation, but it's irrelevant. It's not 'ok to bully someone as long as you don't know you are bullying them.' It's wrong, pure and simple. Incognito's behaviour was that of a bully. The only and I do mean only sympathy I have with him is that I think he has taken some of the bullets for Jerry and Pouncey too. The evidence does point to Incognito as the ring leader, but it certainly doesn't do anything to exonerate the other two.
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I invited you to share any compelling evidence you came upon while reading it.
Well for a start there are the text messages. Not the ones that made the headlines where they are both using racist language, but the group text messages about Martin's sister where it is very clear that Martin wants them to stop. There is the fact that people from inside the organisation who were interviewed confirmed that they witnessed the squirting of water bottles in sexual reference to Martin's sister on more than one occasion during pre-practice warm ups. There was the Vegas incident, there was the occasion when Incognito laid into Martin physically to the extent that he had to be pulled away and he was laughing. Then there is the fine book, which Incognito knew blew his argument that Martin wasn't being "singled out" out of the water and hence withheld from the investigators and tried to have destroyed. Then there is the treatment of the anonymous player A, again ring led by Incognito, the treatment of Nate Garner and then there is the treatment of the Asian trainer (which is the only bit of the report where I find behaviour that does have racist undertones).
None of those things on their own constitute a game changing piece of evidence. But they do to my mind exactly what Ted Wells believed they do - they constitute a pattern of behaviour a pattern of harassment. The fact that the treatment intensified in Martin's second year after he had attempted to pass it off as "hazing" in his rookie year is why I believe it was intentionally relentless. I never felt reading the report that the treatment of Martin was about race. To me it was someone desperate to present himself as the leader of the pack and picking on the weakest member he could in an attempt to assert that authority. Incognito's bullying of Martin was about himself more than it was about Martin and that gets right to heart of what most bullying is.
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Never suggested he was told what to think, the NFL hired him and thus is his client, and burning your client on the most high profile assignment you've ever had is bad for business.
This is not his biggest assignment clearly. It certainly won't be anywhere near his biggest payday. It might be the thing to which his name ends up attached on google searches but there we go.
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I have not read the entire Wells report, but if there is compelling evidence within that report that you found persuasive and you're able to summarize it, that would be much appreciated. So far from what I have read of the report and the summaries and commentaries surrounding it - well, let's just say if this were a criminal matter I'm yet to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm really curious what about this "pattern of harrassment" has you so certain.
To your second point, you're doing exactly what you accuse me of. I didn't suggest this was some grand conspiracy between the NFL, media, and Ted Wells, and I find it more than a bit disingenuos of you to make such an inference (unless nuance just isn't your thing). The whole thing is a lot more subtle than that, and I thought the Clabo characterization made that clear. Wells is a lawyer who was paid to do a job for his client. I didn't suggest for a second that he fabricated any of it. I merely suggested that he may have characterized the events he accurately reported in a way that slants toward the narrative that protects his client's image - If you think that's an outlandish scenario perhaps hou may be a bit naive.
And finally, you, not I, are the one pretending to know the truth of the matter. I suggested there are other reasonable inferences to be drawn from the events as they've been reported and gave an example of one such inference. You said Ted Wells is JFK meets Jesus Christ and thus his word is the gospel.
I never said anything like that, behave yourself. I said he is an entirely reputable guy who has much more to lose acting as a patsy to the NFL than he has to gain, that much is clear. He wasn't representing a client here. He was tasked, by the NFL, to conduct an objective assessment of the evidence. That is exactly what he did and his conclusions are very clearly set out in the report. You are suggesting he was appointed to come to conclusions that supported the narrative. I'm suggesting that is a slur on his professional character. Let me tell you from my own experience, the one thing international attorney's hate more than anything else is being told what they think. I simply refuse to accept that Wells went into this with anything other than a totally open mind.
And this isn't a criminal matter. Clearly. So far as I'm aware Martin has not made a police complaint. This is an NFL investigation, the NFL is not a law enforcement agency and thereby any disciplinary matter dealt with by the NFL has to be considered not against reasonable doubt, but against the balance of probabilities. Mr Wells against that standard of proof concluded that there was evidence of a "pattern of harrasment." Having read the report myself I can only say that I entirely endorse his view. Now what I do not deny is that there could be evidence that contradicts that view that was ommitted from the report. That is where I believe it becomes a question of the author's credibility, but for someone who has not read the report to attempt to suggest that this is just Ted Wells putting a slant on the evidence that suits "his client" by which I presume you mean the NFL is, in my view, disingenuous at best.
EDIT: The one thing I do not doubt is that Incognito is done. No GM has even considered kicking the tyres on him yet, and those guys will all have contacts to do their own research beyond the contents of the report. I can only conclude that they also believe that the pattern of harrassment was established and was not out of character with what has gone before in Incognito's career. I do not see a way back.
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I think when people talk about depth the fact that they've been pretty busy in free agency might well be because they are serious about trading up for someone they consider "elite" in the draft. My biggest issue with trading up to #1 for Clowney is that right tackle arguably now looms large as the single weakest spot on this roster. Now whilst I'm not a huge fan of a tackle in the first round, I'd certainly be looking for a guy in round 2 or worst round 3. I don't want to give up to much to go up for an elite pass rusher or receiver if that means another year of poor line play, because I think that harms the development of our second year Quarterback.
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Williams is a reclamation project. I said earlier in the thread the investing in guys he rated coming out of college who maybe havne't performed in the NFL as expect is something I see as a Whaley trait. They still believe that the guy that was so highly rated coming out is still in there somewhere and they believe in Marrone's ability to coach it out. I think it's a move that has a huge upside, but a pretty low floor too.
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Interesting that Bucky Brooks in his 2013 do-over on NFL.com has the Bills still going EJ in round 1. He has Kiko going #2 overall to the Jags. #LegendofKiko.
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This garbage is just as irritating as the "racism" b.s. Maybe he bullied Jonathan Martin and maybe he didn't. The ONLY evidence of this abuse is that Jonathan Martin had a melt down and then blamed his teammates. There is no evidence that Incognito was "remorselessly" or knowingly breaking that individual down, and you stating it as though it were fact tells us nothing more than that you're the kind of person who passes conjecture off as fact. And if you think the Wells report is an objective accounting of events you're a sucker.
Have you read the Wells report? And I mean actually read it? Not read the summary or read the media reports of it, but actually read the report? There is plenty of evidence which I honeslty believe leads anyone following logic and reason to the interpretation that I reached and seemingly that Ted Wells reached having thoroughly reviewed what was in front of him. There is as the report concluded a clear "pattern of harrassment".
But you disagree because you think the report is some kind of stitch up. You think the media, the NFL and Ted Wells conived to stitch up that nice Richie Incognito chap, based on the word of someone who "had a melt down". Firstly your use of the phrase "melt down" trivialises what actually happened to Jonathan Martin.
Secondly, do you have any idea of Ted Wells' background? Even if I accept that the NFL and the media had some interest in pushing a narrative of Incognito as a bully (which I don't) why on earth would Ted Wells feel bound by that narrative. This guy is one of the top attorneys in America. A guy who has excelled as a criminal lawyer and as a corporate lawyer, not just domestically but internationally. What possible reason is there for him to be a patsy to the NFL?? None. He has far more to lose through that than he possibly has to gain. This was a highly qualified and very experienced guy doing an extremely thorough job. If you wish to believe differently that is your prerogative, but forgive me if that leads me to question your objectivity rather than that of Mr Wells.
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Yea you didn't need to be an offensive line expert to see that Colin Brown couldn't block a breeze and Legursky was a turnstile.
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Manziel - Jacksonville
Clowney - Houston
Bortles - Minnesota
Mack - Cleveland
Evans - Tampa Bay
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Also to echo what others have said.... I wouldn't be all that keen even taking away the baggage. I don't think he is that good, but then I do equally accept that offensive line play is the area of the game I feel least knowledgeable in respect of breaking down, so I might well under-estimate his abilities.
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People arguing about whether he is a racist or not miss the point. The point is he is a bully, with a willingness to pick on the weakness of an individual, consistently and remorselessly until he breaks that individual down. That's not a person who any NFL team, especially one with a young impressionable roster is ever going to take a chance on. The Wells report was pretty clear, Martin was far from Incognito's first target, this a repeating pattern of behaviour,
The guy is done in the NFL. In my view, rightly so. Someone like that has no place on a team in an environment that should be about pulling for one another, not pulling one another apart.
And before anyone comes with the "oh you don't know what it's like in a locker room" etc... I've played and coached semi-professional soccer for the last 15 years. I know the two sports are not identical but I refuse to accept that the locker room culture is so different. Young, competitive guys are the same in whatever sport and every locker room has its banter, its jokes, its recurring themes.... but if a guy is going to the stage where it is hurting others it immediately hurts your team. I've seen it happen and I've always as a coach got rid of that personality immediately. Any team is only as strong as its weakest member... if you have a team member so destroyed by your own side..... well you are beaten before you start.
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I tried to say this earlier, but I don't think it posted so I'll repeat it and apologies if it did post earlier in the thread...
This comes down to - Are the Bills in "win now" mode? Does the front office and the Head Coach honestly believe that EJ can play well enough and the defense can improve sufficiently against the run to get us to the play-offs this year?
Because if they do then it would be madness to trade Stevie Johnson this off-season. As has already been stated rookie wide receivers rarely post huge numbers in year 1.
If they don't think those two things are ready to happen and they thing that 8-8 would be ok for this year then they could think about trading Stevie if they think they can get up for Watkins or Evans and they honestly believe that one of those guys is going to be elite down the road. I'd be just about ok with it in those circumstances, although I'd be wary about trading Johnson unless I'm 100% convinced Williams can behave. Because if he can't all of a sudden you have your rookie, Woods, Goodwin and TJ Graham, which is a downgrade on last year.
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I think this thread is heading for a lock. Incognito is done in the NFL.
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I used to play soccer at a pretty high level and there were some guys that I could push a blind pass to and they would be right there- other, very good players, were just not tuned into the same celestrial channel and would give a WTF glance to you when you gave the ball away.
Hahaha. I've been there... many a time.
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The Texans are not taking Manziel. So 2 will do.
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I think what you are essentially asking for goes further than BPA. You are asking for a "safest BPA" attitude to drafting. Because you are (rightly) saying that there are maybe 15 out of 32 first rounders each year that live up to something close to that billing. So take the OT's this year for example. The perception is very much that Greg Robinson has the potential to be an elite NFL tackle... but it would be at least a bit of a risk to take him because as a pass blocker he isn't there yet. If I'm a GM maybe I think Robinson has a 75% chance of being a 100% player, whereas I think Jake Matthews has a 95% chancwe of being an 80% player. Now I know you are saying disregard positions, I'm just using that as an example, substitute Robinson for Manziel or Watkins if you like. From what you've said I think you would be in favour of drafting Matthews in that scenario, because I (as an imaginairy GM) believe I've found a guy there who is pretty much a slam dunk NFL level talent.
Bridgewater - the luster has come off
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted · Edited by GunnerBill
I agree with the principle that rarely do players fall on boards all through the spring in the run up to the draft. Players are judged on what they do in the autumn (you guys call it "fall" right?). All this stuff about late risers is just the experts finding out that NFL teams liked a guy a lot more than they did and so have him higher than all the early mocks etc. Cody Latimer is an example this year I think. I liked what I saw of him and thought he was a solid second rounder, so was shocked when all the early evaluations for the experts had him going in the 4th/5th round. Now he is considered a "late riser" I suggest all that's happened is that many teams have brought him in for private work outs that all the draft gurus realised they had him graded much lower than a lot of NFL teams so they bump him up in their mocks and on their big boards.
However, having said all of that..... I wouldn't be at all surprised if the horrible nature of Teddy Bridgewater's pro day has genuinely caused him to fall down some boards. And the thing is he might only have had to slide below one of the other QBs to be the difference between a 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder.