BigBuff423

Hey, I didn't come out to the podium game after game and then the Offseason and say it...Marrone did. And yes, if you call "hanging my hat" as holding someone to the integrity of their statements, you can call it that. Had Marrone said, "I believe our STs performed poorly but mostly due to new concepts with young players and that we will get better" which is what most of us assume he is actually thinking, then fine. I may not like keeping Crossman as I believe his poor coaching on STs cost Buffalo a game or two and more importantly does not demosntrate how this team demands improvement, but ok...I'll see Marrone's point and agree to disagree. But in the aspect of doing what you say you're going to do without further clarification, yeah, that's on his shoulders. He is after all the Head Coach. As for a HC that does not bang the accountability drum, I'm sure they do. And I don't watch many other HC's full pressers, so maybe they talk about it a lot...but what I DO KNOW is when you saunter out to the podium and keep saying the same thing, getting the same results when your words indicate you demand different, and then take no action in an area that SCREAMS for the very change you claim to require....you're going to be viewed as hypocritical.

I get what you're driving at regarding the positive relationship they all had...but that said, I'm assuming Marrone and Pettine have been watching film from the BILLS' season and they decided that one significant factor in their porous Run D was the issues with LBs being out of position, either not knowing or being disciplined enough to get into their assigned lanes, and overall lack of productivity in stopping the Run. Pass Defense improved a great deal and that's fantastic, another good step in the right direction. I'm sure the LBs did have something to do with that too, but just in the Tampa Bay game alone, especially on that first run, it doesn't take an expert to see where the LBs were missing their assignments. I know it may seem like a small adjustment, but to me this at least helps Marrone's pontificating about accountability...now, if only he could let Crossman see the door, I would be back on the "All In" Train with Marrone...please see previous posts before we discuss how I do or don't like Marrone as a coach. But that said, Marrone painted himself into a corner by continuously banging the accountability drum, so it's time to act on it

As evidenced, mentioned in another thread, by LB's Coach dismisse - I'm thinking Marrone agrees with you...and me...and everyone else

Can't argue with stopping the Run, as it's been the achilles heel of this team for years! But I don't think it's just the Pats, as others have said. Stopping the Run HAS to BE - MUST BE - priority this Offseason. I think the D got much better, but at stopping the run for some reason this team just can't figure it out. So, another big D lineman but more so, a Run Stopping LB is a must have, if they want the D to improve. As for 1st round and O Line, I would rather grab a O Lineman in FA and Draft either LB / WR or WR / LB, based on available talent, in the first two rounds and then go D lineman in the 3rd because don't forget or sleep on Carrington and with a big run stopping LB, the Run D gets better... Plus, F* the Patsies...I'm tired of them dictating how the BILLS or any other team for that matter prepares in the Off-Season...I know the BILLS have to adapt during the practice week leading up to their match-up and then again during the game, but I don't want to see the BILLS game plan for the talent they draft or FAs they sign based upon just the Pats...that's just me though

I know the board didn't mean to, but I just want to make sure you know that was jw, I can't take any credit or discredit for that statement. i was quoting him, but my little quoty-thingy button was broken so it all got lumped in together....just want to set the record straight, for better or worse. By the way jw, despite the fact we disagree on this subject, I truly do appreciate your insight and the time you take to come to the board...thanks man.

For *me* this is an issue of integrity...Marrone said accountability is the key, then Crossman's STs effectively stink and he's retained. Nope, hollow words from here on out until Marrone proves different. I HOPE Crossman succeeds too...and if he does, Marrone's lack of integrity won't matter, but it won't disappear, it will just be forgotten about...to me

Agreed. LB or WR is a good choice at #9...if they trade back, I suppose depending on how far back, nearly any position is in play and would be an acceptable use of its value.

john wawrow, on 10 January 2014 - 10:41 AM, said: you make good points. and i'm not defending Crossman entirely. the questions are merited. however, there is no point at this time to make a change after only one season. last year was a rebuilding year in which many needs required addressing, and new, young players needed to be brought in. that process in itself limits what teams can do to fill their special teams roster, which essentially becomes a bit of an afterthought when it comes to addressing more pressing needs on offense and special teams. it takes years to fill special teams with "core" players under a new coach, and not just one year. had Marrone spent the offseason dedicating players to special teams, then he would be open to criticism as to why he didn't address other needs on defense or offense. it's a bit of a no-win, here. there was no sober expectation that the Bills would be competitive this season. and to suggest special teams was the only weak spot and/or the reason for the Bills 6-10 finish is not at all valid. there remain numerous holes to fill at numerous positions after several holes were filled this past year. Marrone should now have a better grasp of what he needs to continue building a contender this offseason. and Crossman et al will now have more time to develop the players he believes will form his core. if he fails next year, then it becomes a real issue. for now, he deserves to get a slight pass. jw In all due respect, I disagree. I was, and for the most part still am, a Marrone supporter. I thought Hackett did not do a great job, but I was willing to let there be a year where he "grows" into his OC position and another year with an Off-Season to work with many of the Offensive parts in place. However, Marrone cannot stand at a podium 16 weeks in a regular season and then the first in the Off-Season and preach accountability and give Crossman a pass. Are the "core" players there, maybe not? Were they ready to play on STs this year? Maybe not....but a team that goes from top 10 to almost near the bottom WITHOUT accountability is one that wreaks of hypocrisy...to me anyways. If he wants to stand at the podium and say, "Hey, our STs was not that good this year. We missed blocks, couldn't takle at times, ran out of our lanes, and generally just didn't play as expected. But we WILL get better and Crossman and I are going to be in the film room and working with our players until our STs unit is performing as we demand", then at least I give him credit for the taking ownership while expressly saying that STs need to be better coached, by Marrone or Crossman, but it needs to be addressed. However, by remaining silent on the matter (in regards to Crossman and/or STs) I have lost some respect for the guy. I hope to gain it back either in the Off-Season or by the end of next year, because as I stated I still like the guy and I really do think he *CAN* be good for the BILLS but....there's this issue of taking his words at value from this time forward for a while at least...

Thank God!! Someone else actually gets it! Sometimes, I felt like I was screaming into the Grand Canyon on a Mormon bus ride...hopefully, Doug Whaley feels the same way...Round 3 or later folks...

Well, Andy's level of play in the playoff game was bad, but their inability to run effectively and the fumbles were atrocious. Not to mention his WRs in the playoff game dropped some really important passes including A.J. Green. I don't put it "all" on Gruden, b/c the Bengals Offense wasn't terrible, it just wasn't something I bought into regarding all the hype. I think, despite my last comment about Green, he makes Andy look better given his catching radius and speed.

For more info on TEs and their production and Draft position, look at the information below. The TE information is from a FF website, but the yards and TDs is pretty plain to see. Decide for yourself. TE Draft Results: 2007: Greg Olsen TE Miami (FL) 1 31(31) Chicago Zach Miller TE Arizona State 2 6(38) Oakland Matt Spaeth TE Minnesota 3 13(77) Pittsburgh Scott Chandler TE Iowa 4 30(129) San Diego Martrez Milner TE Georgia 4 34(133) Atlanta Kevin Boss TE Western Oregon 5 16(153) NY Giants Dante Rosario TE Oregon 5 18(155) Carolina Brent Celek TE CINCINNATI 5 25(162) Philadelphia Ben Patrick TE Delaware 7 5(215) Arizona Tyler Ecker TE Michigan 7 6(216) Washington Derek Schouman TE Boise State 7 12(222) Buffalo Michael Allan TE Whitworth 7 21(231) Kansas City Clark Harris TE RUTGERS 7 33(243) Green Bay 2008 TE Stats: 1. Tony Gonzalez KC 16 155 96 1,058 10 165.8 10.4 2. Dallas Clark IND 15 107 77 848 6 120.8 8.1 3. Jason Witten DAL 16 121 81 952 4 119.2 7.5 4. Antonio Gates SD 16 92 60 704 8 118.4 7.4 5. Visanthe Shiancoe MIN 16 59 42 596 7 101.6 6.4 6. Owen Daniels HOU 16 101 70 862 2 98.2 6.1 7. John Carlson SEA 16 80 55 627 5 92.7 5.8 8. Chris Cooley WAS 16 111 83 849 1 90.9 5.7 9. Anthony Fasano MIA 16 53 34 454 7 87.4 5.5 10. Greg Olsen CHI 16 82 54 574 5 87.4 5.5 11. Zach Miller OAK 16 86 56 778 1 83.8 5.2 12. Tony Scheffler DEN 13 61 40 645 3 82.4 6.3 13. Kevin Boss NYG 15 55 33 384 6 74.4 5.0 14. Dustin Keller NYJ 16 78 48 535 3 71.5 4.5 15. Heath Miller PIT 14 65 48 514 3 69.4 5.0 16. Bo Scaife TEN 16 84 58 562 2 68.2 4.3 17. Billy Miller NO 15 57 45 579 1 63.9 4.3 18. Daniel Graham DEN 16 50 32 389 4 62.9 3.9 19. David Martin MIA 16 45 31 440 3 62.0 3.9 20. Marcedes Lewis JAC 16 72 41 489 2 60.9 3.8 21. Kellen Winslow CLE 10 82 43 428 3 60.8 6.1 22. Todd Heap BAL 16 64 35 403 3 58.3 3.6 23. Donald Lee GB 15 45 37 276 5 57.6 3.8 24. Martellus Bennett DAL 16 27 20 283 4 52.3 3.3 25. Jerramy Stevens TB 14 58 35 385 2 50.5 3.6 26. Vernon Davis SF 16 49 31 358 2 48.9 3.1 27. Jeremy Shockey NO 12 67 50 483 0 48.3 4.0 28. L.J. Smith PHI 13 64 37 298 3 47.8 3.7 29. Alex Smith TB 14 38 21 250 3 43.0 3.1 30. Desmond Clark CHI 16 73 41 367 1 42.7 2.7 31. Robert Royal BUF 15 57 33 351 1 41.1 2.7 32. Brent Celek PHI 16 38 27 318 1 37.8 2.4 TE Draft Results: 2008: Dustin Keller TE Purdue 1 30(30) NY Jets John Carlson TE Notre Dame 2 7(38) Seattle Fred Davis TE USC 2 17(48) Washington Martellus Bennett TE Texas A&M 2 30(61) Dallas Brad Cottam TE Tennessee 3 13(76) Kansas City Craig Stevens TE California 3 22(85) Tennessee Jermichael Finley TE Texas 3 28(91) Green Bay Martin Rucker TE Missouri 4 12(111) Cleveland Jacob Tamme TE Kentucky 4 28(127) Indianapolis Derek Fine TE Kansas 4 33(132) Buffalo Gary Barnidge TE Louisville 5 6(141) Carolina Kellen Davis TE Michigan State 5 23(158) Chicago Tom Santi TE Virginia 6 30(196) Indianapolis Matt Sherry TE Villanova 6 41(207) Cincinnati Keith Zinger TE LSU 7 25(232) Atlanta Mike Merritt TE UCF 7 32(239) Kansas City 2009 TE Stats: 1. Vernon Davis SF 16 129 78 965 13 174.5 10.9 2. Dallas Clark IND 16 132 100 1,106 10 171.7 10.7 3. Antonio Gates SD 16 114 79 1,157 8 163.7 10.2 4. Brent Celek PHI 16 112 76 971 8 145.1 9.1 5. Tony Gonzalez ATL 16 135 83 867 6 122.7 7.7 6. Visanthe Shiancoe MIN 16 79 56 566 11 122.6 7.7 7. Kellen Winslow TB 16 127 77 884 5 119.1 7.4 8. Jason Witten DAL 16 124 94 1,030 2 115.0 7.2 9. Heath Miller PIT 16 98 76 789 6 114.9 7.2 10. Greg Olsen CHI 16 108 60 612 8 109.2 6.8 11. John Carlson SEA 16 83 51 574 7 99.4 6.2 12. Zach Miller OAK 15 100 66 805 3 98.5 6.6 13. Jermichael Finley GB 13 71 55 676 5 97.6 7.5 14. Todd Heap BAL 16 75 53 593 6 95.5 6.0 15. Kevin Boss NYG 15 69 42 567 5 88.3 5.9 16. Fred Davis WAS 16 76 48 509 6 86.9 5.4 17. Owen Daniels HOU 8 58 40 519 5 81.9 10.2 18. Jeremy Shockey NO 14 67 48 569 3 74.9 5.4 19. Ben Watson NE 16 41 29 404 5 70.4 4.4 20. Dustin Keller NYJ 16 82 45 522 2 64.9 4.1 21. Marcedes Lewis JAC 15 59 32 518 2 63.8 4.3 22. Tony Scheffler DEN 15 50 31 416 2 53.6 3.6 23. Bo Scaife TEN 14 70 45 440 1 50.0 3.6 24. Will Heller DET 16 50 29 296 3 47.6 3.0 25. Brandon Pettigrew DET 11 55 31 352 2 47.2 4.3 26. Anthony Fasano MIA 14 54 31 339 2 45.9 3.3 27. Daniel Fells STL 14 35 21 273 3 45.3 3.2 28. Chris Cooley WAS 7 45 29 332 2 45.2 6.5 29. Dante Rosario CAR 14 48 26 313 2 43.3 3.1 30. David Thomas NO 15 49 35 356 1 41.6 2.8 31. Randy McMichael STL 16 62 34 332 1 39.2 2.5 32. Joel Dreessen HOU 16 39 26 320 1 38.0 2.4 TE Draft Results: 2009: Brandon Pettigrew TE Oklahoma State 1 20(20) Detroit Richard Quinn TE North Carolina 2 32(64) Denver Jared Cook TE South Carolina 3 25(89) Tennessee Chase Coffman TE Missouri 3 34(98) Cincinnati Travis Beckum TE Wisconsin 3 36(100) NY Giants Shawn Nelson TE Southern Miss 4 21(121) Buffalo Anthony Hill TE North Carolina State 4 22(122) Houston Davon Drew TE East Carolina 5 13(149) Baltimore James Casey TE Rice 5 16(152) Houston Cornelius Ingram TE Florida 5 17(153) Philadelphia John Nalbone TE Monmouth 5 25(161) Miami Zach Miller TE Nebraska-Omaha 6 7(180) Jacksonville Bear Pascoe TE Fresno State 6 11(184) San Francisco Brandon Myers TE Iowa 6 29(202) Oakland John Phillips TE Virginia 6 35(208) Dallas Jake O'Connell TE Miami (OH) 7 28(237) Kansas City David Johnson TE Arkansas State 7 32(241) Pittsburgh Cameron Morrah TE California 7 39(248) Seattle Dan Gronkowski TE Maryland 7 46(255) Detroit 2010 TE Stats: 1. Jason Witten DAL 16 128 94 1,002 9 154.2 9.6 2. Antonio Gates SD 10 65 50 782 10 138.2 13.8 3. Vernon Davis SF 16 93 56 914 7 133.4 8.3 4. Marcedes Lewis JAC 16 88 58 700 10 130.0 8.1 5. Rob Gronkowski NE 16 59 42 546 10 114.6 7.2 6. Kellen Winslow TB 16 98 66 730 5 103.0 6.4 7. Chris Cooley WAS 16 126 77 849 3 102.9 6.4 8. Tony Gonzalez ATL 16 109 70 656 6 101.6 6.4 9. Dustin Keller NYJ 16 101 55 687 5 98.7 6.2 10. Zach Miller OAK 15 92 60 685 5 98.5 6.6 11. Aaron Hernandez NE 14 64 45 563 6 97.0 6.9 12. Brandon Pettigrew DET 16 111 71 722 4 96.2 6.0 13. Ben Watson CLE 16 102 68 763 3 94.2 5.9 14. Todd Heap BAL 13 64 40 599 5 89.9 6.9 15. Jacob Tamme IND 16 93 67 631 4 87.1 5.4 16. Kevin Boss NYG 15 70 35 531 5 83.1 5.5 17. Anthony Fasano MIA 15 60 39 528 4 76.8 5.1 18. Joel Dreessen HOU 16 55 36 517 4 75.7 4.7 19. Brent Celek PHI 16 80 42 511 4 75.1 4.7 20. Tony Moeaki KC 15 73 47 556 3 73.6 4.9 21. Jermaine Gresham CIN 15 83 52 471 4 71.1 4.7 22. Greg Olsen CHI 16 69 41 404 5 70.4 4.4 23. Jimmy Graham NO 15 44 31 356 5 65.9 4.4 24. Visanthe Shiancoe MIN 16 80 47 531 2 65.1 4.1 25. Heath Miller PIT 14 67 42 512 2 63.2 4.5 26. Owen Daniels HOU 11 68 38 471 2 59.1 5.4 27. Jeremy Shockey NO 13 59 41 409 3 58.9 4.5 28. Bo Scaife TEN 14 52 36 318 4 55.8 4.0 29. Dallas Clark IND 6 53 37 347 3 52.7 8.8 30. Daniel Fells STL 16 65 41 391 2 51.1 3.2 31. Fred Davis WAS 16 31 21 316 3 49.6 3.1 32. Tony Scheffler DET 15 72 45 378 1 43.8 2.9 TE Draft Results: 2010: Jermaine Gresham TE Oklahoma 1 21(21) Cincinnati Rob Gronkowski TE Arizona 2 10(42) New England Ed Dickson TE Oregon 3 6(70) Baltimore Tony Moeaki TE Iowa 3 29(93) Kansas City Jimmy Graham TE Miami (FL) 3 31(95) New Orleans Aaron Hernandez TE Florida 4 15(113) New England Dennis Pitta TE Brigham Young 4 16(114) Baltimore Garrett Graham TE Wisconsin 4 20(118) Houston Clay Harbor TE Missouri State 4 27(125) Philadelphia Mike Hoomanawanui TE Illinois 5 1(132) St. Louis Andrew Quarless TE Penn State 5 23(154) Green Bay Brody Eldridge TE Oklahoma 5 31(162) Indianapolis Fendi Onobun TE Houston 6 1(170) St. Louis Dennis Morris TE Louisiana Tech 6 5(174) Washington Nate Byham TE Pittsburgh 6 13(182) San Francisco Anthony McCoy TE USC 6 16(185) Seattle Mickey Shuler TE Penn State 7 7(214) Minnesota Dorin Dickerson TE Pittsburgh 7 20(227) Houston Jim Dray TE Stanford 7 26(233) Arizona Dedrick Epps TE Miami (FL) 7 28(235) San Diego 2011 TE Stats: 1. Rob Gronkowski NE 16 124 90 1,327 17 240.9 15.1 2. Jimmy Graham NO 16 149 99 1,310 11 197.0 12.3 3. Aaron Hernandez NE 14 113 79 910 7 137.5 9.8 4. Tony Gonzalez ATL 16 116 80 875 7 129.5 8.1 5. Jermichael Finley GB 16 92 55 767 8 124.7 7.8 6. Jason Witten DAL 16 117 79 942 5 124.2 7.8 7. Antonio Gates SD 13 88 64 778 7 119.8 9.2 8. Vernon Davis SF 16 95 67 792 6 114.7 7.2 9. Dustin Keller NYJ 16 115 65 815 5 111.5 7.0 10. Brent Celek PHI 16 97 62 811 5 111.1 6.9 11. Brandon Pettigrew DET 16 126 83 777 5 107.7 6.7 12. Fred Davis WAS 12 88 59 796 3 97.6 8.1 13. Jermaine Gresham CIN 14 92 56 596 6 95.6 6.8 14. Jared Cook TEN 16 81 49 759 3 93.9 5.9 15. Kellen Winslow TB 16 121 75 763 2 88.3 5.5 16. Owen Daniels HOU 15 84 54 677 3 85.7 5.7 17. Jake Ballard NYG 14 61 38 604 4 84.4 6.0 18. Greg Olsen CAR 16 89 45 540 5 84.0 5.3 19. Ed Dickson BAL 16 89 54 528 5 82.8 5.2 20. Heath Miller PIT 16 74 51 631 2 75.7 4.7 21. Anthony Fasano MIA 15 54 32 451 5 75.1 5.0 22. Scott Chandler BUF 14 46 38 389 6 74.9 5.4 23. Joel Dreessen HOU 16 39 28 353 6 71.3 4.5 24. Tony Scheffler DET 15 42 26 347 6 71.2 4.7 25. Jeremy Shockey CAR 15 62 37 455 4 69.5 4.6 26. Visanthe Shiancoe MIN 16 70 36 409 3 58.9 3.7 27. Dennis Pitta BAL 16 56 40 405 3 58.5 3.7 28. Evan Moore CLE 16 47 34 324 4 56.4 3.5 29. Kevin Boss OAK 14 40 28 368 3 54.8 3.9 30. Ben Watson CLE 13 71 37 410 2 53.0 4.1 31. Kellen Davis CHI 16 34 18 206 5 50.6 3.2 32. Dallas Clark IND 11 65 34 352 2 47.2 4.3 TE Draft Results: 2011 Kyle Rudolph TE Notre Dame 2 11(43) Minnesota Lance Kendricks TE Wisconsin 2 15(47) St. Louis Robert Housler TE Florida Atlantic 3 5(69) Arizona Jordan Cameron TE USC 4 5(102) Cleveland Luke Stocker TE Tennessee 4 7(104) Tampa Bay Julius Thomas TE Portland State 4 32(129) Denver D.J. Williams TE Arkansas 5 10(141) Green Bay Lee Smith TE Marshall 5 28(159) New England Richard Gordon TE Miami (FL) 6 16(181) Oakland Virgil Green TE Nevada 7 1(204) Denver Ryan Taylor TE North Carolina 7 15(218) Green Bay Daniel Hardy TE Idaho 7 35(238) Tampa Bay 2012 TE Stats: 1. Jimmy Graham NO 15 135 85 982 9 152.2 10.1 2. Rob Gronkowski NE 11 79 55 790 11 145.0 13.2 3. Tony Gonzalez ATL 16 124 93 930 8 141.0 8.8 4. Heath Miller PIT 15 101 71 816 8 129.6 8.6 5. Jason Witten DAL 16 147 110 1,039 3 121.9 7.6 6. Greg Olsen CAR 16 104 69 843 5 114.3 7.1 7. Dennis Pitta BAL 16 94 61 669 7 108.9 6.8 8. Owen Daniels HOU 15 104 62 716 6 107.6 7.2 9. Brandon Myers OAK 16 105 79 806 4 104.6 6.5 10. Jermaine Gresham CIN 16 94 64 737 5 103.7 6.5 11. Kyle Rudolph MIN 16 93 53 493 9 103.3 6.5 12. Antonio Gates SD 15 80 49 538 7 95.8 6.4 13. Scott Chandler BUF 15 74 43 571 6 93.1 6.2 14. Martellus Bennett NYG 16 90 55 626 5 92.6 5.8 15. Vernon Davis SF 15 61 41 548 5 84.8 5.7 16. Aaron Hernandez NE 10 83 51 483 5 78.8 7.9 17. Jermichael Finley GB 16 86 61 667 2 78.7 4.9 18. Marcedes Lewis JAC 15 77 52 540 4 78.0 5.2 19. Jared Cook TEN 13 72 44 523 4 76.3 5.9 20. Lance Kendricks STL 16 64 42 519 4 75.9 4.7 21. Brandon Pettigrew DET 13 102 59 565 3 74.5 5.7 22. Brent Celek PHI 15 88 57 684 1 74.4 5.0 23. Dwayne Allen IND 15 66 45 521 3 70.6 4.7 24. Ben Watson CLE 16 82 49 501 3 68.1 4.3 25. Dallas Clark TB 16 75 47 435 4 67.5 4.2 26. Jacob Tamme DEN 15 85 52 555 2 67.5 4.5 27. Joel Dreessen DEN 16 58 41 356 5 65.6 4.1 28. Anthony Fasano MIA 16 69 41 332 5 63.2 4.0 29. Zach Miller SEA 16 53 38 396 3 57.6 3.6 30. Tony Scheffler DET 15 85 42 504 1 56.4 3.8 31. Jeff Cumberland NYJ 14 53 29 359 3 53.9 3.9 32. Delanie Walker SF 15 39 21 339 3 51.9 3.5 TE Draft Results: 2012: Coby Fleener TE Stanford 2 2(34) Indianapolis Dwayne Allen TE Clemson 3 1(64) Indianapolis Michael Egnew TE Missouri 3 15(78) Miami Ladarius Green TE Louisiana-Lafayette 4 15(110) San Diego Evan Rodriguez TE TEMPLE 4 16(111) Chicago Orson Charles TE Georgia 4 21(116) Cincinnati Adrien Robinson TE CINCINNATI 4 32(127) NY Giants James Hanna TE Oklahoma 6 16(186) Dallas David Paulson TE Oregon 7 33(240) Pittsburgh Brad Smelley TE Alabama 7 40(247) Cleveland 2013 TE Stats: 1. Jimmy Graham NO 16 142 86 1,215 16 217.5 13.6 2. Vernon Davis SF 15 84 52 850 13 163.0 10.9 3. Julius Thomas DEN 14 90 65 788 12 150.8 10.8 4. Jordan Cameron CLE 15 118 80 917 7 133.7 8.9 5. Jason Witten DAL 16 111 73 851 8 133.1 8.3 6. Tony Gonzalez ATL 16 120 82 847 8 132.7 8.3 7. Charles Clay MIA 16 102 69 759 6 119.4 7.5 8. Greg Olsen CAR 16 111 73 816 6 117.6 7.4 9. Antonio Gates SD 16 113 77 872 4 111.2 7.0 10. Martellus Bennett CHI 16 94 65 759 5 105.9 6.6 11. Jared Cook STL 16 85 51 671 5 97.1 6.1 12. Delanie Walker TEN 15 86 60 571 6 93.1 6.2 13. Brent Celek PHI 16 51 32 502 6 86.2 5.4 14. Coby Fleener IND 16 87 52 608 4 84.8 5.3 15. Garrett Graham HOU 12 89 49 545 5 84.5 7.0 16. Rob Gronkowski NE 7 66 39 592 4 83.2 11.9 17. Scott Chandler BUF 16 81 53 655 2 77.5 4.8 18. Brandon Myers NYG 15 76 47 522 4 76.2 5.1 19. Tim Wright TB 11 59 41 433 5 73.5 6.7 20. Zach Ertz PHI 15 57 36 469 4 70.9 4.7 21. Jermaine Gresham CIN 14 68 46 461 4 70.1 5.0 22. Jordan Reed WAS 9 59 45 499 3 69.7 7.7 23. Zach Miller SEA 13 56 33 387 5 68.7 5.3 24. Heath Miller PIT 14 78 58 593 1 65.3 4.7 25. Mychal Rivera OAK 16 60 38 407 4 64.7 4.0 26. Jeff Cumberland NYJ 12 40 26 398 4 63.8 5.3 27. Joseph Fauria DET 11 30 18 207 7 62.7 5.7 28. Marcedes Lewis JAC 10 47 25 359 4 59.9 6.0 29. Tyler Eifert CIN 15 60 39 445 2 56.5 3.8 30. Ladarius Green SD 12 29 17 376 3 55.6 4.6 31. Brandon Pettigrew DET 14 63 41 416 2 53.6 3.8 32. Dallas Clark BAL 11 52 31 343 3 52.3 4.8 TE Draft Results: 2013: Tyler Eifert TE Notre Dame 1 21(21) Cincinnati Zach Ertz TE Stanford 2 3(35) Philadelphia Gavin Escobar TE San Diego State 2 15(47) Dallas Vance McDonald TE Rice 2 23(55) San Francisco Travis Kelce TE CINCINNATI 3 1(63) Kansas City Jordan Reed TE Florida 3 23(85) Washington Dion Sims TE Michigan State 4 9(106) Miami Levine Toilolo TE Stanford 4 36(133) Atlanta Luke Willson TE Rice 5 25(158) Seattle Nick Kasa TE Colorado 6 4(172) Oakland Mychal Rivera TE Tennessee 6 16(184) Oakland Ryan Griffin TE Connecticut 6 33(201) Houston Michael Williams TE Alabama 7 5(211) Detroit D.C. Jefferson TE RUTGERS 7 13(219) Arizona Chris Gragg TE Arkansas 7 16(222) Buffalo Justice Cunningham TE South Carolina 7 48(254) Indianapolis the table for TE Draft results obviously went askew...but you get the point, I hope

The problem with many of those names are they are no longer relevant, such as Shockey, Crumpler, Cooley, Scheffler, and Watson just to name a few of them. Names that are relevant, Graham, Julius Thomas, Jordan Cameron, Jason Witten, Antonio Gates, all of whom are currently producing. Current TEs drafted higher, Eifert, not a bust but didn't provide any real difference for that offense and mention Gresham as well for the same team ironically; Pettigrew, decent blocker but not a real pass catching TE; Winslow is almost into retirement despite his belief of the contrary; Jared Cook can't seem to be productive consistently, flashes of good stuff from one week to the next but nothing over the course of a season, Vernon Davis needed a coaching change to make him as good as he is and Tony Gonzalez is a Hall of Famer who's coming around once every 20 years. To simply pick a Pro Bowl selection since 2000, which the game has changed drastically since then, as the measure by which a TE value in the 1st round is used, seems myopic and not taking all factors into consideration. Using a TE in the 1st round is a total WASTE of the pick when nearly identical talent and potential is found two to three rounds later. Other than Vernon Davis, please name a 1st round TE in the last 5 to 6 years that has had a truly outstanding season (for a TE, not compared to say a WR)...and I'm more than willing to listen.

If I were a Redskins fan, this hire would not make me happy. I think Jay Gruden is a fine coordinator, but watching him on Hard Knocks this last year I don't know if he has the personality or professional aptitude to be a Head Coach. I also consider that despite some incredible weapons on Offense, the Bengals Offense wasn't "spectacular" albeit at times it was good....most of the time, it was just good *enough*. Of course, I could be completely wrong and Jay Grudent turn into the second coming of Vince Lombardi...but, I suspect in 4 years (or less) there will be another press conference similar to the one about to happen...and so goes the turnstile.

Obviously, to each his own. I respect each person's insight, even if I disagree. Which is the case in reference to a TE in Round 1. Here's why: the statistical disadvantage to drafting a TE in the 1st round is pretty big. When you look over the TEs taken in the 1st round over the last ten or so years, many if not most of them have proved to be worth far less than a 1st round selection. Too many to go through all of them, it's on the internet for you to review if you doubt that statement but let me highlight something for you to help make my point without giving an endless stat line. TEs Tony Gonzalez and Vernon Davis are the only current noteworthy 1st round TEs taken in recent memory. And, Vernon Davis was nearly left for road garbage in San Fran until Harbaugh arrived and revived that team. However, players such as Graham, Gates, Witten, Julius Thomas, and Jordan Cameron have all been taken in the 3rd or 4th round. Gronk was taken in the 2nd, and is a rare exception, and even his homicidal cohort Hernandez, despite his sociopathic tendencies, was drafted in the 4th round. Moreover, most of those good to great TEs took two to three years to develop into good or great TEs. When you put that up against a possible starting LB or WR that could be Drafted in the 1st round, and don't forget the BILLS have Chandler, Moekai, and an unknown with a few good flashes in Gragg, it simply doesn't make sense to *me* to Draft a TE in the 1st. I realize we all have our opinions, but this to me just makes more sense. If you're going to Draft a TE, do it in the 3rd round.

BA-ZINGA!

Awesome...I'm glad. Because football and all its glory and disappointment is PART of the joy of things like family, friends, and holidays. And when it turns ugly or rude or just mean, it belittles the simplicity in the joy of loving the game and our hometown team (even though I live in CNY, you get the point). And I truly do appreciate the Mods doing their best to sift through the garbage and make this an enjoyable place to be. But, I'm not entirely wrong about what this board was just a few years ago around the time that Lori and Tim left. Nice...

Also true...and it has puzzled me basically since Kyle Williams Draft year how the BILLS can Draft a guy like Kyle Williams in the 5th and SJ in the 7th, not to mention UDFAs like the previously heralded Jason Peters and David Nelson while he was here, only to whiff on guys like Aaron Maybin....and I know Maybin and Whitner have been talked about ad nauseum, I just mention them to highlight how well the BILLS have done in the aforementioned later rounds and UDFAs...boggles the mind really.

Yeah, no problem with that by me...but, to me the 4th round is the line of demarcation when it comes to potential and finding that real diamond in the rough or the one that most have overlooked but reveals himself to be quite good. Now, you have the Arian Fosters and Jamaal Charles' of the NFL uinverse that wind up being extremely good, but all in all, I think the 4th round is where you have your greatest potential of finding that special talent that goes largely unnoticed until...he hits the NFL in the mouth. And I think RB poses an interesting opportunity for that to be true, especially for the BILLS this year. With FJax coming back and Spiller being a bit of an enigma you could very well find or unearth that RB talent that will help carry the RB workload for the BILLS over the next four to five years. If, a big IF, that were the case, 4th round value is all the more well spent. Once the 5th round arrives, Kyle Williams not withstanding, it generally becomes a much greater risk and I would rather see a secured RB solution for the future.

Preferrably round 4...

And how has Jennings done without Rodgers?? He had one "elite" game this past season, the rest was pedestrian to good at best. Cobb and Nelson are two the best at their position, I don't think I would call them elite but saying Jennings was elite is also a hyperbole. Rodgers made Jennings look great and Jennings made Rodgers look even better, they were a great combo but Jennings doesn't belong in the category of Dez Bryant, Megatron, and a couple others.

I won't hold Marrone to the fire for hiring him because despite his lousy numbers leading up to the BILLS' hire, who knows what the mitigating circumstances may have been...However, when this team goes from top 10 STs to near the bottom in ONE F-IN season with better overall talent, AND Marrone puts all his credibility eggs in the basket of accountability and does NOT fire Crossman...that's where I draw the line in my support and approval of Marrone...I liked the guy shortly after he was hired and liked the way he handled the season in general (not taking the reigns in play-calling when Hackett didn't seem to get it done was my other pet-peeve) but you cannot live on the sword of accountability and then not be willing to use it when it comes to making an immediate staffing change that appears extremely obvious to everyone that is watching the games.

Going "all in" on one particular group / skill set is not a healthy way to approach the Draft, IMO...I completely agree with Drafting an Offensive Lineman, in addition to adding one via FA, but LB and yes, WR is a pretty important need. And another really good LB, such as a 1st round talent, would benefit this Defense and hopefully the Run D for a while, if he pans out. A big play WR is needed on the outside also, can't ignore that.

Absolutely. I agree. I wrote a long-winded response to Tim's exit and some people were supportive while others merely tattered the post because they were of the opinion that due to Tim being a published writer he should be subjected to personal attacks. When, what was lost on those individuals was that when Tim was here posting, it was his "personal" time. Yes, he has / had a column and at the time was employed by ESPN so some would say he would come on here to try and get his "numbers up" in regards to those viewing or reading his content...to which many of us said - bullsh*t because he didn't need this board to do that. More importantly, it was pretty obvious he came here to post as just the average guy with above average information and insight. So try to be bullied for simply sharing in the cause was ridiculous....I'm with ya. I already said enough in previous posts, but I'm glad someone else brought up Tim Graham.

Just say NO to TE in the 1st round....historically speaking, analysis of the TE position shows it is a total WASTE of a 1st round pick for a TE...your much better TEs, therefore statistical advantage, come in the 3rd to 4th round.

If they want Watkins I don't think they'll have to move past 9...however, based upon Marrone's statements recently, the BILLS may feel they have their big WR for the outside on their current roster. Not saying I agree, just that Marrone and Whaley may not believe a big WR is in the draft plans...