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Wayne that second play is a perfect example of there being a play to be made and the qb not making it. Woods was wide open with room to run and easily would have gotten the first down and maybe more. That has to be one of the easier throws to make as well. So frustrating to watch.

I put it elsewhere but this is completely overblown. Hughes normally plays 70% of the snaps. He missed that mark by 7.5 snaps. Very few people are heralding him as coty. Hell I probably am one of his biggest defenders and I won't even mention him in that conversation. That award is Bruce Arian's alone. We can start talking culture change now seeing as the team has its first non losing season in 10 years!

Spikes is not getting his credit imo. His fire and borderline recklessness has been the true spark to me on that defense. He brought a serious attitude. I know he has limitations as a player but I hope he comes back next year. Bradham, Brown, Kiko, and Spikes would be fantastic depth and skill at the lb position.

I thought he was short too but in fact the yellow first down marker was off by a yard. They only needed to get to the 20 and not the 19 like the line indicated. It was weird because they left it there after the penalty too. He did indeed have the first down when he went down though.

So you've got him better than 9 starters and on par with 4 more putting him in the 19-23 range which I am on board with. Which is why I think we fall in the spot we do. I don't mean to go through these threads and make it sound like Nate is the best oc ever. I just don't think he is the worst and I'd like to see him get a real opportunity. I'm a big believer of this coaching staff for no other reason than this is the hardest playing Bills team I have seen in a long time. If Marrone wants Hackett I'm on board with that. I think if Hackett is let go one of the coaches on staff (Hostler perhaps) would be the guy and that just doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah I mentioned a while ago that the Williams disappearance correlated directly with the EJ benching. I thought maybe there was something to it but now I am also just guessing lol.

Don't the all 22s regularly show plays left on the field by the qb? I think that they are put in advantageous situations. I think that a talent increase will help show that. If you want to go off on a Lee Smith tangent or the one 3rd and 1 play that got stuffed that is fine. I just think an improved talent level will magically make the coaches look a lot better than they do now. I want Hackett back next year not for just for continuity's sake but because I have been impressed with what he has been able to squeeze out of the talent we have. I really think the talent level on the offensive side is that poor. Look at this list: Chandler - cut ww pickup, left to dangle on the market and came back bc there were no other offers Pears/Urbik - ww pickups cut from their original teams Boobie/Bryce - nice players but inactive/only active on st's on their last team Freddie - heart and soul slow as molasses Orton/EJ/Tuel/Thad - mediocre/project/practice squad fodder/3rd stringer WR group - very talented also very young. Most receivers hit their stride in their 3rd year. Next year just with the people currently on the roster we could see some leaps. EJ could progress after learning, Orton could improve with time in the system, Cryil/Kuandjio could improve as big leaps are made between year 1 and 2. I would imagine some pieces will be added through fa and the draft as well. I would like to see what Hackett can do with them. As I pointed out upthread there are several "good offensive minds" that are hamstrung by mediocre/subpar talent. Maybe Hackett falls in that group maybe he doesn't I just don't think he has been given the fair shot yet to see. I asked earlier and will ask again. Of the grouping Orton/EJ/Thad/Tuel which of those would put in the top 22 of qbs playing. I picked the #22 because that is the current offensive rank and I think I showed pretty convincingly that qb talent correlates pretty well with offensive output.

Yeah he and Freddy deserve it. He almost got choked up talking about "I've been on other teams" and then trailing off. Love that they are playing for each other and the results are evident on the field.

I actually think it colors a lot of people's opinion of him. People get mad when he doesn't explain every detail or situation and what is going on or why the decision was made as it was. It then leads to wild speculation such as the M Williams, Urbik, or Mario injury situations.

Well this was in the post you quoted: I won't argue that it is entirely the players and clearly with the 22nd ranked offense some improvements could be made but I think that the talent is a bigger determining factor than coaching. My argument is that sometimes people are prisoners of what they see without comparison. Of course the 22nd rated offense could use improvement. My question is where does that improvement need to happen. I listed examples of "great offensive minds" that are hamstrung by lack of talent. I also listed talent that elevates what we think of the coaching (NE Coordinators is a perfect example of this). The point is we don't really know what we have in regards to coaching because the talent is not there. Of the 4 qbs that Hackett has had to work with would you rank any of them above the 22nd best starting qb? It is the rare case (Philly being the only one) that a coach can boost the talent he has to a top unit without much of the talent being top level.

Does crow really taste that bad?

This teams got it. This teams got it! :wub: :wub: :wub:

I just want to put some stats about other teams and coaches here.... I think we all think Andy Reid is a good offensive mind right? He and the Chiefs are averaging 1.1 more ypg and 1.4 more points per game I think we all think that Jim Harbaugh is a good offensive mind right? He and the Niners are averaging 7.8 less ypg and 3.7 less points per game I think we all think Bruce Arians is a good offensive mind right? He and the Cardinals are averaging .3 less ypg and 1.0 less points per game I won't argue that it is entirely the players and clearly with the 22nd ranked offense some improvements could be made but I think that the talent is a bigger determining factor than coaching. Here are a few more items: The top 6 offenses in points for are Brady, Manning, Rodgers, Roethlisberger and Luck led teams with Philly being the outlier. The top 6 offenses in ypg are led by Brady, Rodgers, Luck, Roethlisberger, Manning, and Philly. So of the top 6 offenses in the NFL 5 are doing it with talent and 1 is doing it with coaching. Some more interesting tidbits: Of the top 5 defenses by ypg (Seattle, Detroit, SF, Denver, and Buffalo) only Denver led by Manning is in the top 10 for offensive ypg. Of the top 5 defenses in ppg (Detroit, Seattle, Arizona, Buffalo, and KC) none of them are in the top 10 in offensive ppg. This speaks to just how difficult it is to field 2 top units barring having a stud qb (and sometimes even with one)

So the what?!?! Seriously on a Monday after one of the biggest wins in recent Bills memory are people focused on the negative?

Talk to a fan of any team Orton was the QB of. He is not some great QB that was neutered by Marrone and Hackett. He is a mediocre talent that is actually overachieving (scary isn't it) in this offense. He just plainly put isn't very good and it is why everywhere he went the team looked to move on from him. This is the maddening thing to me. What has Orton done to deserve this longer leash? Why all the excuse making for him? Like this for example. Seriously what is more likely here; Marrone and Hackett are telling him to lie down to avoid turning the ball over OR Orton whose commitment to the game can certainly be questioned doesn't want to take the hit Damn beat me to it but exactly the same thought!

Sure. Unfortunately I'm on my phone so linking is out but Google Orton stats for verification (BTW if you type kyle Orton the 3rd suggestion is drunk lol) Currently Orton is throwing for the second most ypg of his career, has the second lowest int % of his career, second best td:int ratio, and second highest completion % while attemprint the second most passes of his career.

The 7-7 Houston texans? The team we played on the road? I'll answer the call but I don't know what they are going to say to contradict my post.

It's funny because Orton is having one of if not his best year of his career.

Op this tells you how bad your idea is. Kelly to83td is agreeing with you!

The Bills under Marrone this year don't lose these games. All of the teams they should beat they have. All of their losses are against teams with winning records. The Raiders are 2-12 going against a 8-6 Bills team. I'm smelling a route here.

Every single team does this it is not a special Bills are terrible idea. A perfect example of this is goal line formations. When you need short yardage it doesn't matter that the other team knows what you are doing you still expect to be succesful. I don't get why every single play needs to be a trick or deception. Sometimes it is up to the player to straight up beat their man. This is just a hindsight argument. If the Bills get the first running it on 3rd and short we are all happy.

So how do you feel about the Broncos moving to a run first offense with a top 5 all time first ballot hof qb? They don't even try to fool people as one of their tight ends is a tackle.

No They never have and likely will be playing for home field advantage. To be totally honest I don't want them to either. I'd like to see this team play and beat them no excuses.

Be honest how much did it pain you to post this link? they won. Save your pissing and moaning for another day.

Lol Bills fans have no idea how to handle December when it isn't all about next year by now.