section122

Adversity this year off the top of my head: 1. Ownership - sure it is settled now but it wasn't all the way through training camp and through the first week of the season. 2. Having to put a qb in who had no camp and less than a month with the team before the wr corps mutinied. 3. Lost both starting rbs in the span of a few minutes. 4. No practice for almost an entire week, having a home game against a division rival moved to a different city. 5. A schedule that has feature 4 games total in the first 13 against teams with a losing record. 1 of those teams counts twice and is a division rival (Jets) the other is 6-7. Maybe this isn't major adversity but points 1,3,4, and 5 are certainly nothing to sneeze at.

Every single decision is critiqued to no end. Please show me one coach who is perfect. Just one. That is what I mean. Does he know where Jerry Hughes is? Does it matter what he says? These things get handled in house but because we as fans don't know what happened people use it to fit their narrative. You would hate to be a Patriots* fan and the non answers given by Belicheck. On top of that Hughes normally plays about 70% of snaps which in this game would have been 38.5 snaps, he played 31. We want to make a huge deal about 7 snaps? The innovative offense? It's with the NFL caliber qb. What kind of offense do you expect with Kyle Orton running the show. The guy is a career .500 player and has shown exactly that on the Bills.

You can't be serious with this. Sure the Bills only got the ball back once but they had a chance to get it back twice. Now if they had a chance to get it 3 times your argument would hold merit. They lost by 1 score and had a chance to get the ball back to tie it. It didn't work out but how is that worse than getting the ball once and losing by 2 scores? 6 minutes left and 3 minutes left are 2 totally different things. You can't be serious thinking they are the same idea can you?

I think it is actually the opposite. I think many here watch the Bills TOO closely. Every tiny minute move is dissected and discussed until it is beat into the ground. Many here didn't like the Marrone hire and every story they can use to justify their preconceived notions they use. This is the general consensus about the job Marrone has done from outsiders. We are fans so it is difficult to reconcile the fact that these are the lowly Bills we are talking about. The fact that Marrone has brought them back to respectability is not lost like it is here. Here everyone wants to credit Whaley for the good roster moves and blame Marrone for the bad ones. They want to credit Schwartz and Pettine for the play of the defense and give none of it to Marrone. When Orton plays well it is in spite of the coaching blah blah blah. Marrone is doing a good job here whether people want to admit it or not. Nobody turns it around overnight anymore especially from the doldrums that were the 2000s Buffalo Bills.

Me neither. Seems people forget that the Offense was 14th, 19th, and 25th. Hackett had them at 19th last year and 22nd this year. I also don't get the idea that Frank Reich would be an improvement. The Chargers are currently 20th in Offense with a much better qb. They have gained a total of 116 more yards over 13 games and are averaging .9 more points a game. This is the huge improvement people are pining for?

You honestly think that is how it went down?! How many that are up in arms today about this benching supported the benching of Stevie for his celebration penalties?

The bracing for contact multiple times drove me insane. No keeping his eyes downfield, no standing tall in the pocket, no anything other than waiting to get sacked. One of the times he did it the line held up and he got confused lol.

Knowing some people that played for Marrone in Syracuse this isn't it at all. Marrone likes to keep everything in house. He wants there to be open discussion between players and coaches and doesn't want the splintering of position groups that happens from time to time on football teams. Taking responsibility for the penalties is leadership.

I think you found the answer on accident. The Cards stunk, got Warner and got good, Lost Warner and stunk again, Got Carson Palmer and were good again, lost Palmer and stink again. As for your overnight comment 2 years in the NFL is over night. Pretty much every coach gets at least 3 years. Especially ones that have shown progress. Oh the mythical sign the best ol free agent available and the best free agent qb. Also cut a player under a good contract who was playing well, not resign a player from the strength of our team. So let's see... you haven't named names (please do what miracle qb is available this year?), you have made our secondary worse, and made our d-line worse. Gee can I be your campaign manager for GM? It's almost like it isn't easy to just snap your fingers and fix your holes.... I love the teams you listed too for turn arounds. The Cards - got Carson Palmer. Also want to mention that this team was 8-8 just 2 years prior to Arians coming on board and had been to the playoffs 4 years prior, the super bowl 5 years prior. Yup they were certainly the same mess that the Bills were Redskins 2012 - one year is all you want? They are hot garbage and have been since that one winning streak amazingly enough it was during the only hot streak of rg3's career. I hope you have higher hopes for the Bills of building a long term winner. Since that "turnaround" the Redskins are 6-23. What a turnaround! Panthers 2013 - the team with the #1 pick at QB? (are you starting to sense a trend here?). The same one that is 4-8-1 this year? What a turnaround! Seahawks - the team with Russell Wilson? The team that had the #1 ranked defense in all of football last year? Hey guess what they went 7-9 in each of Carrols first 2 years. The 'hawks should have fired him!!!

U mad bro? Seriously go on the record (with sarcasm Mr. Palmer) and tell us how you would turn it around.

Glad to hear it. DIdn't know if you were getting saddle sore from your crusade I am actually in agreement with you that I would have preferred Manuel this year to Orton. I will take exception to your bolded though. The part I thought EJ was lacking the most was the leadership. He appeared to be too timid and not take charge enough to succeed. His comments about learning this after seeing Kyle do it were encouraging for me. Some people learn by seeing while others learn by doing. Hopefully sitting has been good for EJ and we see the benefits of it next year. We as fans just don't know any of the dynamics surrounding the shift. It certainly seemed the receivers were upset with Manuel's accuracy during that Houston game. We have no idea what else was going on behind the scenes.

So wait a second. Whaley gets credit for the talent he assembled but Marrone gets the blame for the QBs on the team? Do you see the contradiction here? Thank you for your valuable conrtibution to this thread Please do enlighten me with what your plan would be after exercising the nuclear option.

So 3 games out of 13 are fireable for you? Houston - road game against a motivated former qb, against most likely the defensive mvp who could not be contained, that came down to the last drive which featured a horrendous no call to end it when it should have been a first down. KC - the playoff team from last year, the team that has arguably one of the single most dynamic players in the NFL in J Charles, the same team that went out and beat the defending world champs the very next week or pasted the Pats*, and again a game that came down to the last drive where Orton went Orton and missed several plays. On top of the fact that the defense gave up a looonnnnggg td run on 4th and 1. Hell I won't even blame the d. Manny Lawson lost containment on the edge and then did it again on the Smith td run. So if Marrone gets no credit for the defense does he just get the blame? Mia - short week, division rival, on the road.

After a decade and a half of futility it might be understandable no? Did you expect an overnight turnaround from the string of Gailey 6-10s? As I posted earlier 9 seasons before Marrone got here was the last time the Bills had a winning record. 9! This guy though doesn't get his 3 years though because "fans" have had enough? Man what happened to you? I hope all is well with you and yours but you have just been on a serious crusade the last few weeks. We get it you didn't like the move to Orton. You don't see any difference between this team and Jauron or Gailey? Seriously?

Yeah I can't see them winning this year. I wouldn't at all be surprised if he hung it up at the end of the year either. He is an all time great hopefully he doesn't go out like Willie Mays. Still kills me that they didn't call at least D holding on that last pick. Would have loved to see a win there too myself. That and the KC game are the 2 possibles for me as well. I fully expected a loss to Mia on the Thursday night game. I was hoping for a win but wasn't surprised it didn't happen.

No I won't. I just don't see that happening though. This team has not laid down at all under Marrone. The offense is 22nd in yards and 18th in points. Hardly bottom 5. I don't see a loss to the Raiders bc this team hasn't lost to a team it should beat all year. I would love to see an upset in one of the other games but I can't understand the line of thinking that losing to the 3 best teams in the NFL somehow makes Marrone a bad coach if that indeed does happen.

Thanks. I just see a team that is clearly headed in the right direction but many on this board feel that isn't the case. I'm always amazed that people can watch the same thing and come away with 2 completely different takeaways. I get the frustration with the Bills and their ineptitude in general just not with this team or these coaches. Each year is it's own animal and for the first time in a long time the Bills are still in it with 3 weeks to go! You know what they say about assuming . So they went from 1-5 the first year to currently 3-6 which is an improvement. I love seeing that 4-0 vs. teams with a worse record. The sign of good coaching is beating the teams you are supposed to. Again I will say what games have the Bills lost that before the game started you thought they should have won? Maybe the Chiefs game? Maybe the second Dolphins game? You know what my favorite thing about this team is? They are nobody's doormat. When teams have to play the Bills now they know it will be a tough physical game. The Bills aren't pushovers anymore. This team expects to win. It has been a long time since any of us could say any of these things about the Buffalo Bills! The reason I am okay with that is giving the ball back after missing the 4th down would have guaranteed the game was over. Peyton is great but he wasn't great yesterday (I actually think he is hiding an injury or worse a dead arm). By punting it Marrone extended the game and gave his offense another chance. I have no issue with it (but can see your side of the argument) as I feel it was the best play. Winnable yes. Locks no. This team is still a few pieces away from the upper echelon teams imo. Particularly at G and QB. I won't argue that Whaley hasn't done a tremendous job as I think he has. Which is all the more reason I want to see continuity. Both in his role and the coaching staff. Remember how bad Crossman was last year before he got talent for his 1/3 of the team? Now all of a sudden he isn't too bad. I think we will see the same with Hackett if he is given even a mid level qb to work with instead of the bottom of the barrel he has been given.

I still think punting it back was the right move. Going for it and failing would have ended the game right then and there. By punting they gave themselves a chance to extend the game, which they did, and get it to within one score. Even if they go for it, get it, and proceed to score a td, you are still looking at the onside kick situation as it likely would have been under 3 minutes by then with no timeouts. As for how easy the first 12 games were that was based on last years record. 4 games out of 12 were against teams that currently have a losing record and that includes counting the Jets twice. As for the production not changing even with the injuries doesn't that speak to a great coaching job? Remember when losing a player meant the end of the year? I credit the coaches for that as that is one of the biggest signs of a successful team. 3 first rounders on the dline - Mario, Dareus, Hughes I believe the stat I saw is that 8 of 11 starters for the defense were drafted in the first or second round. That is a lot of resources on defense. Whether it is money for FA or actual draft picks. The offensive side (including EJ) has 5 of 11 starters from the first or second round. So the Dolphins and Browns who share the same record as us are average but we are somehow better than them? Or is that the Bills also are an average team? I would take the flip side of your argument and say that the Bills only lose to good teams. Which is how it should be. Teams are not going to win every game. The Bills have only gotten to play 4 teams under .500 and that includes the 6-7 Vikings who you somehow call a bad team. Somehow though the Bills only have 6 losses. By your strange definition of good/bad shouldn't the Bills have 6 losses? The Cardinals are certainly an anomaly. Arians has done a fantastic job which I won't argue. However since losing his qb the team is 2-2 and has scored 14,3,18, and 17 points. It's almost like having a qb is important.... As for the 15 year remark, you realize that Marrone is only responsible for 1 of those right? Also doesn't it perhaps speak to how difficult of a turn around it would be to come into a situation where a team has not had a winning record in so long and get them there? People are championing the turn around Harbaugh had in SF but fail to realize that they went 8-8 just 2 years before he got there. THe last time the Bills were 8-8 was 9 years before Marrone got here. Much more difficult turnaround imo.

Ah yes one of the "the defense is good so he gets no credit, the offense is subpar so he gets all the blame" guys. Do you know that there is 1 team in the NFL that is top 10 in both this year? Hint it is the same team that the Bills played yesterday. Lovie Smith has his team 22nd in defense should he be fired? That is the same ranking the Bills O is but a guy many opined for. How about Tom Coughlin and his 24th ranked d? Marvi Lewis and his 29th ranked defense perhaps? All worse than what the Bills O is ranked. Are they supposed to be fired as well? Not at all but it does speak to the resources spent on the sides of the ball. Add in that the 2 biggest FA signings this year (Graham and Spikes) were both on the Defensive side of the ball it is clear that the most resources are spent on it and therefore why it is performing better. I think Promo had a great thread about the absolute lack of options at the QB position recently. Alex Smith was really the only name that anyone could come up with that was available since Marrone/Whaley have taken over and even he is nothing to get excited about.

Be honest with yourself. What were your preseason expectations of this team? Maybe it is because I had them pegged at 8-8 at the start of the year but I am very okay with how this year has gone. There are huge talent gaps on this team imo. Namely at the G position and QB. The success they are having despite the deficiencies tells me that these are good coaches.

The resources pumped into this offense? QB - journeyman OL - 1 first rounder, 1 second rounder, 2 waived players, and a 7th rounder TE - waived players WR - 1 first rounder, 1 second rounder, waived player, multiple mid round selections Compare that to the defense: DL: 3 first rounders CBs: 2 first rounder S: 1 second rounder, multiple mid round selections LB: second rounder, multiple mid round selections It isn't surprising when looking at the resources distributed that the defense is better than the offense. Also this "putrid" offense has an awful lot to do with the "putrid qb." Somehow Hackett/Marrone have this offense gaining more yards than the geniuses Jim Harbaugh and Andy Reid. They have them scoring more points than Jay Gruden and Bruce Arians's teams while being tied with Marc Trestman's teams. All names that have been floated as "significant improvements" - although I will give Arian's a pass with his injuries.

Are you serious with this?!?! The Bills defense was atrocious before Marrone got here. Or did you forget Wannstache? Can you please show me a coach who doesn't get questioned about his gameday decisions? You know why people do that? It is because they have the benefit of hindsight to help them "know" what the right call should be.

Accept the average? Or be realistic about expectations? Do you not feel that this team is better than it was 3 years ago? Do you not feel this team plays tougher than 3 years ago? What did you think this team would be record wise this year at this point? If you are being honest with yourself 7-6 is probably very close. This is the best Bills football we have seen in a long time! That isn't accepting mediocrity that is hoping that the Bills brass is smarter than message boards and won't blow up a good thing. Don't let perfect be the enemy of very good.

This is all well and good (although I disagree about RT and RB being high talent more middle of the road for me) but it forgets that their is little to no talent at the G position and the MOST IMPORTANT POSITION IN SPORTS QB. Yes this is it exactly! No QB makes it much more difficult to do anything. Marrone and Hackett have overachieved imo with what they have been given at QB.

I just don't get it. I'm so sick of the whining and crying and nitpicking every little thing. Fire Marrone: The guy who has the Bills playing the best ball in the last 15 years? The guy who has the team competing in every game? The guy who wins all of the games he is supposed too? The guy who has had this team in position to win every single game late in the 4th quarter save for 2 games? The guy who has this team playing unified ball? The guy who has the talent on this team actually producing? Why? Because you don't like that M Williams is on the bench? Because you don't like his punting decisions? Hire Harbaugh: The guy who is an offensive genius right? The guy who's team is the 24th ranked offense behind the Bills 22nd? The guy who's team is scoring the 26th most points behind the Bills 18th? The guy who just lost to the Raiders yesterday? Fire Hackett: See the stats listed above and step back from the ledge. THis offense isn't great but it isn't the worst we've ever seen. Add in the fact that he has been hamstrung by 1 qb out of the NFL (Lewis), 1 qb on the practice squad (Tuel), 1 project qb (EJ), and 1 career backup that shouldn't be anyone's starter (Orton). If you are paying attention instead of trying to fit your preconceived notions, the Bills have been using the screen game much more effectively, hell they even got the ball to Watkins yesterday to appease those fans. The Losses: Very very few people predicted better than 8-8 this year. Some said best case scenario 9-7. Rose colored glasses had 10 wins. Now that we are staring at least 8-8 in the face the sky is falling and everyone needs to be replaced. This is the best Bills team we have seen in a long time. This is the first team to not be under .500 before week 16 since 1993, this is the first team to have 7 wins by december since 2000, this team is still in the thick of the playoffs going into week 15. Legitimately in the thick of things too not well if these crazy things happen we are in. The KC game? 2 backup rbs, one untimely fumble, against a team that went out and beat the defending super bowl champs the next week. The Miami night game? The home teams are 7-5 in those games. Not one game this year should the Bills have dominated a team on paper and lost. There are very few teams that can say that any year let alone this year. Get over yourself and stop trying to fit every teeny situation to your already determined narrative. I feel like I'm not watching the same games as other people. This team is the most competitive team I have seen in a long while and we should blow it up?