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Just some food for thought on fumbling and the pats* Benjarvus Green Ellis: 4 years with pats* 0 fumbles, 0 fumbles lost... 2 years with Bengals 5 fumbles 4 lost (discrepancy) Legarette Blount: 21 games with pats* 3 fumbles, 2 lost.... 51 games with other teams 7 fumbles 5 lost (minimal difference) Danny Woodhead: 45 games with the pats* 2 fumbles 1 lost... 29 games without 2 fumbles 2 lost (incomplete - if he goes next season without a fumble it would tie his pats* stats Sammy Morris: 4 season with pats* 3 fumbles 2 lost... 8 seasons without 8 fumbles 4 lost (minimal difference) This seems to lend some credence to those saying that the Pats* target players who don't fumble.

I did and found it especially strange since my entire post was 2 sentences of me and the rest quotes of the story. I didn't even think my post was that strong lol. Oh well

Not sure why you came at me but your snark is very unwarranted. Especially for the post you quoted. This situation is confirmation of what many around here have thought for a long time. The pats* will do whatever it takes to win whether that is within the rules, stretching the rules, or outside of them. Again this isn't whether or not cheating benefited them. It is about whether or not they did.

It is very much like politics. Things are only a big deal when people make them a big deal. Could this have been going on for a long time? Of course! Until the media picks up and runs with it nobody cares. This is the perfect story to fill the first week before the super bowl. I have a feeling that next week will be all about the game itself and some sprinkling in of this situation. That said (and I am sure this has been mentioned repeatedly in a 96 page thread). This situation by itself isn't the biggest deal in the world. The fact that they did this and have a past history of doing this makes it a much bigger deal than this situation by itself. Think about a player like Raiola from Detroit. First time he did something dirty it was a fine and some people were actually defending what he did. Second time it was a suspension and nobody came to his defense. This has turned into a pattern. This has brought to light to the national scene what those of us who are fans of the AFC East already knew. The pats* are not and haven't been for a long time on "the up and up" or a model franchise. It has gone from us Bills fans hating them and thinking they are cheaters to fans of pretty much every team saying the same thing. That is why this is a big deal. The media darling Tom Brady and the almighty pats* might just be Lance Armstrong or Barry Bonds. Also Jackson wasn't the first to report it was the manager that he turned the ball over to after the interception.

This isn't about whether the Patriots needed to cheat. This is only about whether they did cheat. That is what the defenders of the pats* need to hear over and over. The sidebar comments from former players also struck me as very damning. Jerome Bettis: "I'm so disappointed because I thought this was a perfect opportunity for Tom Brady to go and say 'You know what? I made a mistake. I blew it. It's on me. I'll take the blame here, and this will go away.' He didn't do that ... I'm disappointed in you, Tom Brady." Brian Dawkins: "This is unbelievable. For you not to know what you touch every play? ... The equipment manager is being thrown under the bus now. Now he's the guy. Now he's the one responsible. He took it upon himself to doctor up the balls when nobody else knew about it? That hard [to believe]." Mark Brunell: "I did not believe what Tom had to say. Those balls were deflated. Somebody had to do it. I don't believe there's an equipment manager in the NFL that would, on his own initiative, deflate a ball without the starting QB's approval ... That football is our livelihood. If you don't feel good about throwing that ball? Your success on the football field can suffer from that."

Certainly a different sport but I referee soccer and it very easy to tell when a ball is under inflated. Those are to be 9-10.5 lbs of air maybe that is why it is more noticeable but it jumped in my head immediately. As a soccer ref I am handling a ball much less than a football referee would as well. That said... Wouldn't 2 lbs of pressure be noticeable when they threw it to each other for spots, or when they placed it on the ground, or when they held it for measuring? It did happen at least once that the official noticed it early in the 3rd so I don't totally buy that they didn't/wouldn't notice. I am asking seriously though as I really have no idea. Going back to soccer it is noticeable most when the ball is bouncing which is something that doesn't happen in football with the regularity it does in soccer.

I think we are looking at a Michael Jordan situation. Quietly something will happen. Perhaps Belicheck will take a year off, or donate a substantial amount of money to an NFL charity. I have a feeling whatever punishment is announced will only be part of the actual punishment. It will be announced AFTER the super bowl. Hopeful me says: As a guy who believes that NFL games are massaged to the outcome the league wants from time to time I would be very surprised to see the Pats* win the super bowl this year. If it is a close game there will be a controversial call/non-call benefiting Seattle which will help them win the game. Realistic me says: We will be underwhelmed with the punishment, there will something done behind the scenes as I said, and the pats* will continue to stretch the rules/cheat. Super Bowl trips are certainly worth the 25k that is being thrown around as punishment. The chance to win a title is certainly worth that pittance in everyone's mind including Kraft. This is one of the bigger aspects of the story to me. Either the refs are incompetent or worse complicit. Either way not a good look for the NFL.

I almost feel bad for the money I made on my tickets this year. My sister and I have center court tickets and profited over $200 mainly bc we got $150 each for the Duke game. We will be able to attend 6 games, make that money, and have the tourney tickets still too. Cuse season tickets are turning into a pretty good investment! As for the Clemson game, I'm wondering if word got to the players about the post season ban. That was a pretty poor first half and Clemson was on fire. I was very pleased with the effort in the second half but they just couldn't make it all the way back. When it got to 13 on a few different occasions I actually kept thinking they might have a chance. This is a good year for the post season ban though. I think by the end of the year this team will be close to a bubble team anyway.

Pretty close to what I'm hearing too. Stripped of 12 wins from 2010-2012 2 scholarship losses starting in 16 And yes banned from the tourney this year. I hate the ncaa. Unc better get way worse than this.

I really dislike this argument. It has nothing to do with millionaire vs. billionaire. It has to do with on the person's favorite team or not on their team. Look at how fast fans turn on players when they leave or embrace them when they return. LeBron is a perfect example of this. He was loved in Cleveland, hated in Cleveland, and now loved again. It is because fans root for the uniform it has nothing personal from a player/agent perspective but very personal to many fans. The other issue many have is how players go about their business. Between Peters holding out, showing up out of shape, and then admitting to not giving 100% and Byrd having foot problems that many fans find suspicious it is very easy to see why Parker is not liked here. He does a great job, exactly what he is paid to do as you said. His tactics suck and it feels like he keeps getting the better of the Bills. It is easy to understand why he is disliked by Bills fans but it has nothing to do with siding with the owner.

As it does most years it will come down to the schedule. Look at the AFC North. Wow they got 3 teams in isn't that great. Well they played the NFC and AFC South, the 2 worst divisions in football. How about in the NFC? 2 teams from the NFC North that also got to play the NFC South. In a 16 game schedule, with the talent levels on most teams being so close, the teams you have to play have a huge effect on making the playoffs. Part of the Pats* success is due to the fact that they get 6 games every year against the Jets, Bills, and Phins. That allows them to get some easy wins and a lot of times get a first round bye. Not to get sidetracked from my original point and go on a Pats* tangent but this article has the info... Since the Brady-Belichick Era began in New England in 2001, the Buffalo Bills are a pathetic 83-130, never having a better record than the 9-7 mark they achieved in 2004, good for third place in the division. The Dolphins are all of 98-115 over the same timeframe, and the Jets are 105-108. The Patriots have a 63-18 record within the AFC East since the start of the 2001 season. The Jets are 39-41 over that same period; the Dolphins, 34-48, the Bills, 27-54. So now that Buffalo finally has a talent level at or near the rest of the league it is no surprise that they competed well this year. Next year's schedule, on paper at least, looks to be easier than this years schedule.

The number 1 overall "once in a generation" guy counts as a hit for everyone. Besides 4merper4mer everyone knew this guy would be a stud. The #36, #8, and #3 overall picks nobody knew about?!? what? I'm just giving you a hard time here but let's be honest. You are forever Skelton for Mario guy. We still love ya, it's safe here, you can admit you just throw stojan at the wall. I don't even know why I remember this but Casey Pachall was your big guy once upon a time. Did he even get drafted? I appreciate that you stick your neck out and stake an opinion but yeah I got nothing

I think that is what I enjoyed most was that he was just some guy. Then he got full of himself and it went downhill. To top it off the Bills have never made a smart move in his opinion. Every single move gets trashed. His mock drafts play out like he just uses Kiper's rankings. Like you said take it for what it is and to me it ain't much.

Don't go to Walter Football for analysis, insight, or anything really. I used to enjoy the site but he has been mailing it in for a couple of years now.

I was all set to type something up but Kirby hit the nail on the head. Limited tape and what tape there is has huge production. He certainly looks the part and it is funny you mention Culpepper because I had the same though simply though becuase he looks a bit fat. He looks like he still has baby fat on his face! That said there isn't anything on film really to knock him down and the paralysis by analysis that happens around draft time would be limited with this kid. If he comes out it really wouldn't surprise me to see him the 3rd qb off the board and gone by pick 50.

That would be amazing!!! Think about all of the money that this would generate! It would be a gamblers wet dream! Brackets for the NFL Playoffs?!?! You could even stretch it into 6 weeks to still have the week off for the SB. Now I'm sad this will never happen

Those of you screaming for Reich do not know what you are asking for. A worse offense with a much better qb. What has he done that says hc to you?

As I have said he is a below average starter. To me that is lower than league average that is bottom of the league... They seem like the same thing. I also said in the post you quoted that he ranked somewhere around 19-23 imo. That is bottom of the league and below average. Do you really want to argue semantics here or can we agree that Orton just isn't that good. Not the worst, not the best, and certainly nobody that can lead you to the super bowl. And all time Bills leader in completion %?! come on man. 64.2 percent while averaging a 30th ranked in the league ypa is something to hang your hat on?

Please explain this post. What are the reasons he was hired to you? To me it was to rebuild a franchise that had been stuck in mediocrity for over a decade. Which he did. The 2015 offensive cupboard is bare? I don't know what you are driving at here so please explain it further. I will then be glad to point out how you are wrong.

It would be for 12 games so I will extrapolate out the extra 4 games. yards he would move up to 14th. tds he would move to 13th ints he would go from 20th to tied for 11th (higher number is a bad thing) As I have said he is a below average starter. Not the worst in the league but nobody I would plan on winning anything such as a playoff game with. Also keep in mind this ended as statistically about the 2nd best season of Orton's career. So this subpar production was about the best we could hope for from him. Hopefully his true value this year lies in showing EJ how to be a professional qb. The 9-7 was fantastic and the most fun I have had in a long time rooting for this team. That said I am not sad that we are moving on from him.

Excellent post! I agree with a lot of this particularly the EJ part.

Yeah I'm not the biggest fan of qbr myself but the ypa is a pretty good indicator. The other rating puts him at 19th or slightly below average. In a discussion with other posters I settled on him being between the 19th and 23rd best starting qb. Again not good enough to go anywhere with.

Sure do... Orton ranks QBR: 25th in the league Yards: 22nd ypa: 30th rating: 19th tds: 19th ypg: 16th To me that is lower than league average that is bottom of the league...

You haven't been ahead yet soooooooo....... quit while you're behind?

That too