thebandit27 Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 no problem, Nostradamus. i've been on the defensive before.obviously, i took exception to your knocks against the media. that said, there are things people do know, but make it difficult to prove. and that's the problem. there are things that i might know, and i'm sure i'm not the only reporter out there. but knowing them or being told something and verifying that information is another thing. that's all i can say on my end. jw John, while I realize that there has been literally zero light shed publicly by Wilson, Kelly, Golisano, or anyone else reportedly involved in the ownership/possible ownership of the team, I'm curious about something--what is your opinion regarding the future of the team, based on what (if anything) you have been told regarding the situation? I realize that you have no way of knowing anything concrete, but I (and bet others too) would definitely be interested in hearing your impression of the situation once Mr. Wilson is no longer among us. Do they stay? Do they go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 You presume said pockets exist. Why the does everyone here think Kelly is bluffing on his ownership group? Sorry, but I'm more inclined to believe Jim Kelly than anonymous internet douchebags who seem to enjoy starting new relocation rumors every year. I have no clue who Kelly's money men are, but it's not that unreasonable to suspect they exist. Jacobs and Rich from Buffalo, Golisano and Wegman from Rochester, Trump from NYC, Schumer's immense political clout, Warren Buffet who has business ties to our city...there may be a lot more lurking about. I suspect Kelly and his investor group are keeping silent simply because it's kind of rude to talk publicly about Ralph Wilson's imminent death, you know? The rest of this thread is nothing but overly pessimistic conjecturing. I guess 9+ years of no playoffs will do that to a fanbase... I admit that LA is a viable NFL market, but first they need to actually go about building a viable NFL stadium. And it will have to be built 100% with private money since California is broke. And Ed Roski has reportedly lost over a billion in net wealth since the recession hit, so who knows how willing he'll still be in funding this stadium when the time comes. And it won't be TWO teams LA gets since their population is too transient and blase about pro football (not to mention the perpetual "option" of having a second team move to LA is a great motivation tool for other NFL teams looking to extort new stadium deals from their respective cities). I suspect that Toronto, as well, is a viable NFL market. However, like LA, a new (and privately funded) stadium will first need to be built to accomodate modern NFL standards. There is also the issue of a strained CFL-NFL relationship, which could be the dealbreaker here. San Antonio? No. Its metro population is no bigger than that of WNY, the Alamodome is not suitable, they already have the Cowboys and Texans and Longhorns and high school football around them to keep them occupied, and the economic downturn has reduced any obvious advantage they could have over Buffalo. London and Mexico City? Travel logistics and uncertain fan support kill these two as options. Sacramento? Portland? Orlando? Las Vegas? All of these cities are basically a bunch of San Antonios, sans the enthusiasm for football or sports in general. So we're down to 2 legitimate threats, LA and Toronto, which may have ownership groups with enough money to afford the Bills plus the relocation fee plus the new stadium. Luckily for us Bills fans, I have 2 teams in my mind that are better suited for relocation: the Raiders (for LA) and the Jags (for Toronto). I suspect the NFL owners would block Buffalo's relocation (or any other team's relocation) to any other city not named LA or Toronto for the simple reason that the marginal potential increase in revenue doesn't justify ripping a loyal, 50-year-old fanbase that has proven it will show up to games if even a modicum of effort is put into fielding a winner. In summary, while it's very possible that the Bills relocate after Ralph dies, it's FAR from guaranteed that they will. Anyone suggesting otherwise is either a hopeless glass-half-empty type or a gullible tinfoil-hat-wearing type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 ......trying to build a fan base in LA?? http://the506.com/nflmaps/2009/06-CBS-L.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbringer Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 ......trying to build a fan base in LA?? http://the506.com/nflmaps/2009/06-CBS-L.html Been there, done that. Check a few pages back - we already talked about this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Been there, done that. Check a few pages back - we already talked about this... .................and nothing else was repeated in this thread? Good one. Or on this whole board for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CircleTheWagons Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 So we're down to 2 legitimate threats, LA and Toronto, which may have ownership groups with enough money to afford the Bills plus the relocation fee plus the new stadium. Luckily for us Bills fans, I have 2 teams in my mind that are better suited for relocation: the Raiders (for LA) and the Jags (for Toronto). Why are the Jags better suited for Toronto? It seems to me that the Bills have targeted Toronto and it wouldn't help the Bills if there was a different team in Toronto taking away the Canadian fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delete This Account Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 John, while I realize that there has been literally zero light shed publicly by Wilson, Kelly, Golisano, or anyone else reportedly involved in the ownership/possible ownership of the team, I'm curious about something--what is your opinion regarding the future of the team, based on what (if anything) you have been told regarding the situation? I realize that you have no way of knowing anything concrete, but I (and bet others too) would definitely be interested in hearing your impression of the situation once Mr. Wilson is no longer among us. Do they stay? Do they go? i go back and forth between there being a 40 and 75 percent chance of the Bills moving to Toronto. and the only thing i know is that there are many hurdles to cross for the team to move north of the border. -- what will the Canadian dollar be valued? -- is Rogers prepared to lay out $2 billion -- and that's with a capital B -- to buy the team and build a new stadium? -- what influence will Chuck Schumer have in representing Western New York interests, and this can't be discounted because the federal government has some influence on the NFL in regards to labor laws etc. -- what will the NFL look like post new CBA. -- Roger Goodell's influence. as much as he represents the league, there is a sense that he doesn't want to be the one to lose Buffalo not only because he's a western new yorker, but also because he appreciates the history of the Bills. -- i think Ralph Wilson's inclusion into the Pro Football Hall of Fame can't be discounted. a person who established a legacy of against franchise relocation being included in the hall of fame makes for a bit of a conundrum for the NFL to consider relocating that franchise. the NFL has not, to some degree, lived down losing Cleveland. -- Jim Kelly has, i believe, a person with deep pockets ready to make a competive bid. and if he fails, i believe Tom Golisano is also waiting in the wings. of course, all this is all about timing, but i'm convinced the Bills relocation is NOT a fait accomplis. jw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orton's Arm Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Do you stereotype about people's race/religion as much as you do their profession? Our country would fare well without attorneys keeping our government, with their prodigious resources, clout and supremacy, in check Back in the late 1700s, there were few if any professional attorneys here in the U.S. If you got a law degree, it was typically because you intended to run for a public office such as the state legislature. Nowadays, of course, we see plenty of attorneys. They're falling down from the skies, emerging from the woodwork, rising to street level whenever the water level in the sewers gets high enough. They're everywhere! Just five minutes ago, I grabbed some food from one of my kitchen cupboards. I opened the cupboard door to find an attorney inside; who promptly presented me with a bill. It's a good thing we have all those attorneys! Obviously, government is a lot more limited today than it was in the late 1700s, back before all those lawyers appeared! They're obviously doing a great job of keeping the government in check! Oh, oh, let's not forget the wonderful effect they're having on the criminal justice system. Take the OJ case, for example. How might that have gone in a world without lawyers? A study has indicated that for every additional attorney you add to the economy, you destroy $1 million a year in economic value. There is, unfortunately, a price to be paid for all the wonderful things attorneys bring. But if you ask me, it's worth that price, ten times over!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 check this out... http://losangeles.bizjournals.com/losangel...05/daily22.html this removes probably the largest barrier to moving the bills. can't believe municipalities and still paying for nfl stadiums. must be stimulus money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 i go back and forth between there being a 40 and 75 percent chance of the Bills moving to Toronto.and the only thing i know is that there are many hurdles to cross for the team to move north of the border. -- what will the Canadian dollar be valued? -- is Rogers prepared to lay out $2 billion -- and that's with a capital B -- to buy the team and build a new stadium? -- what influence will Chuck Schumer have in representing Western New York interests, and this can't be discounted because the federal government has some influence on the NFL in regards to labor laws etc. -- what will the NFL look like post new CBA. -- Roger Goodell's influence. as much as he represents the league, there is a sense that he doesn't want to be the one to lose Buffalo not only because he's a western new yorker, but also because he appreciates the history of the Bills. -- i think Ralph Wilson's inclusion into the Pro Football Hall of Fame can't be discounted. a person who established a legacy of against franchise relocation being included in the hall of fame makes for a bit of a conundrum for the NFL to consider relocating that franchise. the NFL has not, to some degree, lived down losing Cleveland. -- Jim Kelly has, i believe, a person with deep pockets ready to make a competive bid. and if he fails, i believe Tom Golisano is also waiting in the wings. of course, all this is all about timing, but i'm convinced the Bills relocation is NOT a fait accomplis. jw the cost of stadium is an issue. unfortunately it appears that municipalities are still seriously working to build them (L.A., Santa Clara, etc.) that is a large hurdle overcome. Schumer is a toad who will have no say. Goodell will have a say, but once Ralph is gone, the free market takes over and not much Goodell or wishful thinking can do about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Why are the Jags better suited for Toronto? It seems to me that the Bills have targeted Toronto and it wouldn't help the Bills if there was a different team in Toronto taking away the Canadian fans. the bills are a no-brainer for Toronto because any WNYer with couple bucks in their pocket will be going to Toronto to watch them. If I am a buyer of the bills, I move them to Toronto, because I know I have an existing fan base that will come to the games. The Jags would have no fan interest at all and would be starting from scratch in toronto. I would like to see a half the games at the ralph and half in toronto... a real international team that draws from the entire region... they'd have the $$ to field a great team and a great organization, but there would still be games in the Ralph. I wonder if the league would allow the Skydome and the Ralph to split the games and meet the 'must have a big stadium' league requirement .. then rogers does not have to build a new stadium in toronto.. just refurb the skydome .. this is the best result.. maybe kelly owns some, whatever... do those big hovercraft still operate between toronto and niag falls?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8-8 Forever? Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 the bills are a no-brainer for Toronto because any WNYer with couple bucks in their pocket will be going to Toronto to watch them. If I am a buyer of the bills, I move them to Toronto, because I know I have an existing fan base that will come to the games. The Jags would have no fan interest at all and would be starting from scratch in toronto. I would like to see a half the games at the ralph and half in toronto... a real international team that draws from the entire region... they'd have the $$ to field a great team and a great organization, but there would still be games in the Ralph. I wonder if the league would allow the Skydome and the Ralph to split the games and meet the 'must have a big stadium' league requirement .. then rogers does not have to build a new stadium in toronto.. just refurb the skydome .. this is the best result.. maybe kelly owns some, whatever... do those big hovercraft still operate between toronto and niag falls?? and you probalby skirt the CFL objections about an NFL team competing with the Argos. suggestion: play 2 games in toronto next year, .. prove the case over time that the bills are not a threat.. when it comes time to play 4 or 5 games there, CFL objections will be muted... for those who think i am giving the team away.. i am simply trying to keep as much in WNY as possible... whoever buys the team from ralph will move it to wherever he has the best shot at recovering his or her investment... 8 games at the ralph will be suboptimal in any analyis, the population is too poor to support the investment. but 3-4 games at the ralph to hold interest and 4-5 games in toronto at double the ralph prices, now that might work... hold training camp in Niagara Falls, build the fan bases, etc. this is worth pursuing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davefan66 Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 8 games at the ralph will be suboptimal in any analyis, the population is too poor to support the investment. but 3-4 games at the ralph to hold interest and 4-5 games in toronto at double the ralph prices, now that might work... I don't know. I think fans would pay higher ticket prices if they knew it was due to the Bills staying. How much? Who knows. Right know, the Bills are pretty affordable from college kids, to professionals. I wonder if they jacked the prices, if you would actually draw from a different sector of our local economy, those with large amounts of disposable income. I've heard from plenty of people who have the cash, but will not attend games based on the rowdiness. Jack the tix price, exclude the young and drunk and I bet you still sell tix. Maybe not a sellout every game, but darn close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 the bills are a no-brainer for Toronto because any WNYer with couple bucks in their pocket will be going to Toronto to watch them. If I am a buyer of the bills, I move them to Toronto, because I know I have an existing fan base that will come to the games. The Jags would have no fan interest at all and would be starting from scratch in toronto. I would like to see a half the games at the ralph and half in toronto... a real international team that draws from the entire region... they'd have the $$ to field a great team and a great organization, but there would still be games in the Ralph. I wonder if the league would allow the Skydome and the Ralph to split the games and meet the 'must have a big stadium' league requirement .. then rogers does not have to build a new stadium in toronto.. just refurb the skydome .. this is the best result.. maybe kelly owns some, whatever... do those big hovercraft still operate between toronto and niag falls?? You do know that neither Toronto game sold out last season, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 You do know that neither Toronto game sold out last season, correct? let him go...he's on a roll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstencel Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 If the Bills do move, I would most likely stick with them as my team. The one exception would be if they moved out of the USA. If they moved to Toronto, I couldn't follow a Canadian team. It would be nice if they Bills stayed in Buffalo, and I really hope they can. I just don't see a new owner being able to raise revenues enough to cover the debt burden and still make a profit, unless the revenue sharing model, or collective bargaining share that goes to players changes in the owners favor, with the next agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Senator Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 do those big hovercraft still operate between toronto and niag falls?? they never did - there's this minor obstruction called the escarpment, and a little bit of water rushing over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted October 18, 2009 Share Posted October 18, 2009 they never did - there's this minor obstruction called the escarpment, and a little bit of water rushing over it. There was some craft from Toronto to another Lake Ontario destination on the American side. I forget where it was though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flbillsfan#1 Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 the bills are a no-brainer for Toronto because any WNYer with couple bucks in their pocket will be going to Toronto to watch them. If I am a buyer of the bills, I move them to Toronto, because I know I have an existing fan base that will come to the games. The Jags would have no fan interest at all and would be starting from scratch in toronto. I would like to see a half the games at the ralph and half in toronto... a real international team that draws from the entire region... they'd have the $$ to field a great team and a great organization, but there would still be games in the Ralph. I wonder if the league would allow the Skydome and the Ralph to split the games and meet the 'must have a big stadium' league requirement .. then rogers does not have to build a new stadium in toronto.. just refurb the skydome .. this is the best result.. maybe kelly owns some, whatever... do those big hovercraft still operate between toronto and niag falls?? If you think Bills fans would go to Toronto to watch a TORONTO team, you are CRAZY. FEW people in Buffalo go to watch the Jays play, there would be FEWER people that go see a TORONTO team that USED TO be the Bills. If they split the games between Buffalo & Toronto SOME people would go from Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcali Posted October 19, 2009 Share Posted October 19, 2009 the bills are a no-brainer for Toronto because any WNYer with couple bucks in their pocket will be going to Toronto to watch them. If I am a buyer of the bills, I move them to Toronto, because I know I have an existing fan base that will come to the games. The Jags would have no fan interest at all and would be starting from scratch in toronto. I would like to see a half the games at the ralph and half in toronto... a real international team that draws from the entire region... they'd have the $$ to field a great team and a great organization, but there would still be games in the Ralph. I wonder if the league would allow the Skydome and the Ralph to split the games and meet the 'must have a big stadium' league requirement .. then rogers does not have to build a new stadium in toronto.. just refurb the skydome .. this is the best result.. maybe kelly owns some, whatever... do those big hovercraft still operate between toronto and niag falls?? garbage idea-at least for the people of buffalo and its fans....bills fans wont share this team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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