Harvard Scholar Arrested for Being Black

[OCinBuffalo]

Can someone explain to me how police behavior isn't going to trend in general towards profiling when the following conditions exist...and demonstrate the way things ARE, not the way they SHOULD be, or the way we WISH they were?

 

Blacks Murder rate 7 time higher than Whites.

Blacks will go to prison 5 time more often, and Hispanics will go 3 times more often than whites

 

There are a bevy of other stats as well, so let's spare ourselves the BS. In the interest of fairness, more whites killed cops in 2007 than minorities.

 

I am just trying to understand here...I know that police forces purposely train their people not to profile, which is a good thing. But, I find it hard to believe that the average officer out there, seeing the same thing go down year after year, isn't going to eventually start to see a pattern and start to follow it. If your job was to solve any problem, wouldn't you eventually start to learn where the problem is most likely to come from, and then eventually start there more often?

 

I wonder if all the training in the world is a giant waste of time given the the realities "on the ground". I am sure there are all kinds of arguments as to "why" this is the case = crime disparity amongst minorities. And, I probably could be convinced of their validity. However, police don't deal in "why". They deal in "is". I think it would be extremely difficult for any reasonable person to completely ignore a suspect's race, and be a police officer at the same time.

[ExiledInIllinois]

It is all how you spin it... The British soldiers where right for firing which led to the Boston Masscre... After all they were jeered at and had snowballs thrown at them... Same thing with the dead students at Kent State... They got what they deserved too.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Can someone explain to me how police behavior isn't going to trend in general towards profiling when the following conditions exist...and demonstrate the way things ARE, not the way they SHOULD be, or the way we WISH they were?

 

Blacks Murder rate 7 time higher than Whites.

Blacks will go to prison 5 time more often, and Hispanics will go 3 times more often than whites

 

There are a bevy of other stats as well, so let's spare ourselves the BS. In the interest of fairness, more whites killed cops in 2007 than minorities.

 

I am just trying to understand here...I know that police forces purposely train their people not to profile, which is a good thing. But, I find it hard to believe that the average officer out there, seeing the same thing go down year after year, isn't going to eventually start to see a pattern and start to follow it. If your job was to solve any problem, wouldn't you eventually start to learn where the problem is most likely to come from, and then eventually start there more often?

 

I wonder if all the training in the world is a giant waste of time given the the realities "on the ground". I am sure there are all kinds of arguments as to "why" this is the case = crime disparity amongst minorities. And, I probably could be convinced of their validity. However, police don't deal in "why". They deal in "is". I think it would be extremely difficult for any reasonable person to completely ignore a suspect's race, and be a police officer at the same time.

 

I am totally down with this post. Really.

[Kelly the Dog]

Can someone explain to me how police behavior isn't going to trend in general towards profiling when the following conditions exist...and demonstrate the way things ARE, not the way they SHOULD be, or the way we WISH they were?

 

Blacks Murder rate 7 time higher than Whites.

Blacks will go to prison 5 time more often, and Hispanics will go 3 times more often than whites

 

There are a bevy of other stats as well, so let's spare ourselves the BS. In the interest of fairness, more whites killed cops in 2007 than minorities.

 

I am just trying to understand here...I know that police forces purposely train their people not to profile, which is a good thing. But, I find it hard to believe that the average officer out there, seeing the same thing go down year after year, isn't going to eventually start to see a pattern and start to follow it. If your job was to solve any problem, wouldn't you eventually start to learn where the problem is most likely to come from, and then eventually start there more often?

 

I wonder if all the training in the world is a giant waste of time given the the realities "on the ground". I am sure there are all kinds of arguments as to "why" this is the case = crime disparity amongst minorities. And, I probably could be convinced of their validity. However, police don't deal in "why". They deal in "is". I think it would be extremely difficult for any reasonable person to completely ignore a suspect's race, and be a police officer at the same time.

You make some good points, and therein lies the problem. No one wants to say it, but there is a good reason for racial profiling. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't condone it, it doesn't make it fair, but it's almost impossible to argue. Chris Rock said it best when he said, "When I'm at an ATM at night, I'm not scared "the media" is behind me, I'm scared of !@#$s!" And he's right. A small number of black guys are thieves but a large proportion of thievery at ATMs at night are done by black guys. And he is not saying white guys don't rob people at ATMs.

 

But that also doesn't mean that you guys on the other side aren't just as uppity and just as over-sensitive and just as unreasonable as the people you are criticizing. I see it on this board all the time...

 

A liberal WILL SAY something like, "There is still a lot of racism in the country and a lot of it is old white guys" or "a lot of it is from conservatives" -- AND WHAT CONSERVATIVES HEAR IS -- "All conservatives are racists!" and they immediately fly off the handle, say "Oh right, blame it all on whitey!", can't believe you just called THEM a racist, and do all the same illogical blathering that Gates was doing.

 

When all the liberal person was talking about was the same thing Chris Rock was talking about in the example above, some cliches and stereotypes are true even if they're based on a small number of the population.

[IDBillzFan]

You make some good points, and therein lies the problem. No one wants to say it, but there is a good reason for racial profiling. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't condone it, it doesn't make it fair, but it's almost impossible to argue. Chris Rock said it best when he said, "When I'm at an ATM at night, I'm not scared "the media" is behind me, I'm scared of !@#$s!" And he's right. A small number of black guys are thieves but a large proportion of thievery at ATMs at night are done by black guys. And he is not saying white guys don't rob people at ATMs.

 

But that also doesn't mean that you guys on the other side aren't just as uppity and just as over-sensitive and just as unreasonable as the people you are criticizing. I see it on this board all the time...

 

A liberal WILL SAY something like, "There is still a lot of racism in the country and a lot of it is old white guys" or "a lot of it is from conservatives" -- AND WHAT CONSERVATIVES HEAR IS -- "All conservatives are racists!" and they immediately fly off the handle, say "Oh right, blame it all on whitey!", can't believe you just called THEM a racist, and do all the same illogical blathering that Gates was doing.

 

When all the liberal person was talking about was the same thing Chris Rock was talking about in the example above, some cliches and stereotypes are true even if they're based on a small number of the population.

This is all right on the money, as far as I'm concerned. The reality is, I think there are two key issues for helping do away with racism. The first was addressed very well by Obama in his speech to the NAACP, in particular, his Bill Cosby-like bit of...

 

"We've got to say to our children, Yes, if you're African American, the odds of growing up amid crime and gangs are higher. Yes, if you live in a poor neighborhood, you will face challenges that someone in a wealthy suburb does not have to face. That's not a reason to get bad grades, that's not a reason to cut class, that's not a reason to give up on your education and drop out of school," he said. "No one has written your destiny for you. Your destiny is in your hands - and don't you forget that."

 

So there is clearly a need for personal accountability. There are no excuses any more for most people, black or white.

 

Alternately, people like myself (the son of a racist) need to ensure that we not only keep our minds open, but that we help our children to not see color. That pattern of racism that you indirectly referred to above in "old white guys" is where I've seen it the most. And many of these old dudes inadvertently pass that on to their children. I know because my father was pretty racist, and in fact one of the main reasons I don't speak with him any more can be traced back to a particular rant he went off on while we were visiting him for the sole intention of him to meet the woman who is now my wife. It was disgusting, and I had no use for it, and I still have no use for it. But if all the white people in the country make an effort to teach their children to stop seeing color, it won't be near as effective until black parents teach their children to avoid the lazy excuses, avoid dependency on entitlements, and help break the cycle that has contributed to those stats in the first place.

[Dwight Drane]

I can't agree more and this makes the officer inadequate.

 

And there in lies your problem.

 

His job is to serve... Even in the face of what he had to deal with... Not puff up for his peers. He is not serving his peers, they are not his "customer."

 

But the point is....the cop ISN'T RACIST! He may have made an arrest that didn't have to be made, but not because the guy was black. If Tom Arnold was the homeowner and did the same thing, he would have been rung just the same.

 

The professor is the one claiming racism and that is what made the headlines. Then you have your president and COMMANDER IN CHIEF commenting out his ass during a national press conference. Way to weaken your authority Mr President.

 

No he is backpeddling on national TV as I type this.

[ExiledInIllinois]

But the point is....the cop ISN'T RACIST! He may have made an arrest that didn't have to be made, but not because the guy was black. If Tom Arnold was the homeowner and did the same thing, he would have been rung just the same.

 

The professor is the one claiming racism and that is what made the headlines. Then you have your president and COMMANDER IN CHIEF commenting out his ass during a national press conference. Way to weaken your authority Mr President.

 

No he is backpeddling on national TV as I type this.

 

 

I am not sure about that... I don't trust the cop as much as I don't trust the homeowner... It takes two to tango. Now of course that is something the CiC can't say... But I can.

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

This is all right on the money, as far as I'm concerned. The reality is, I think there are two key issues for helping do away with racism. The first was addressed very well by Obama in his speech to the NAACP, in particular, his Bill Cosby-like bit of...

 

 

 

So there is clearly a need for personal accountability. There are no excuses any more for most people, black or white.

 

Alternately, people like myself (the son of a racist) need to ensure that we not only keep our minds open, but that we help our children to not see color. That pattern of racism that you indirectly referred to above in "old white guys" is where I've seen it the most. And many of these old dudes inadvertently pass that on to their children. I know because my father was pretty racist, and in fact one of the main reasons I don't speak with him any more can be traced back to a particular rant he went off on while we were visiting him for the sole intention of him to meet the woman who is now my wife. It was disgusting, and I had no use for it, and I still have no use for it. But if all the white people in the country make an effort to teach their children to stop seeing color, it won't be near as effective until black parents teach their children to avoid the lazy excuses, avoid dependency on entitlements, and help break the cycle that has contributed to those stats in the first place.

Pretty incredible story. The second part though is stereo typical. I know plenty of hard working african americans who teach their children the value of hard work. I also know plenty who are lazy, the same with poor frustrated Irish in the Boston area and some other races in the Buffalo area. Ignorance and being poor seems to be the greatest factor in the motivation area in certain groups, but I am not sure the reasons why. Others work hard despite their ignorance. As far as that goes and there are plenty of stereotypical examples, but I know plenty of folks that dont' fit the bill.... So judging someone because of their race is racist. I do my best to set those aside, be aware of my prejudices and put them aside by treating each person as they are and how I would want them to treat me.

 

On the surface many folks appear one way. Get to know someone and you find out a different angle is all I am saying.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

If you infuse a sheep with self-importance and hypocrisy, you get a modern progressive.

 

Fixed that for you.

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

But the point is....the cop ISN'T RACIST! He may have made an arrest that didn't have to be made, but not because the guy was black. If Tom Arnold was the homeowner and did the same thing, he would have been rung just the same.

 

The professor is the one claiming racism and that is what made the headlines. Then you have your president and COMMANDER IN CHIEF commenting out his ass during a national press conference. Way to weaken your authority Mr President.

 

No he is backpeddling on national TV as I type this.

 

The officer may not be racist, but the President didn't claim that, he said it was a stupid thing to do arresting the professor. I agree and I think the officer was in fact stupid and not doing his job to serve and protect. The President didn't say the officer was a racist, but that his actions could easily be interpreted the wrong way and was given the police history nationally including recently in NYC against their own more than once in the last year.

 

To not understand that African Americans are not on edge when confronted by police is ignorant and stupid and this officer should have just walked away once he discovered that the professor was legit to be there.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/07/newyork.officer.killed/

[Magox]

July 24 (Bloomberg) -- President Barack Obama said he should have “calibrated my words differently” in remarks about the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. in which he said police “acted stupidly.”

 

Obama said he spoke by telephone with the officer involved in the case. The president said he contributed to “ratcheting up” the controversy over the arrest and said both police and Gates “probably” overreacted.

[AlaskaDarin_Has_AIDS]

Can someone explain to me how police behavior isn't going to trend in general towards profiling when the following conditions exist...and demonstrate the way things ARE, not the way they SHOULD be, or the way we WISH they were?

 

Blacks Murder rate 7 time higher than Whites.

Blacks will go to prison 5 time more often, and Hispanics will go 3 times more often than whites

 

CHECK IT

 

I'm glad that you had the courage to point out the 600 pound gorilla in the room. Now await your evisceration by the libs!

[OCinBuffalo]

When all the liberal person was talking about was the same thing Chris Rock was talking about in the example above, some cliches and stereotypes are true even if they're based on a small number of the population.

I don't know. I have been called racist numerous time both here and elsewhere for simply stating the truth, no different than I did above. When I was last in Philly, I wend to this great open mike night a Fergie's. There was this amazing singer that sounded like Ella Fitzgerald. When I complemented her after she was done, and said that nobody would believe that that sound came from a 5 foot nothing tiny WHITE girl, her fat ass black friend called me a racist. WTF is that?

 

Chris Rock also said:

"There's alot of racism going on who's more racist, black people or white people? It's black people! You know why? Because we hate black people too! Everything white people don't like about black people, black people really don't like about black people ,and there's 2 sides, there's black people and theres niggas. The niggas have got to go.You can't have sh-- when you around niggas, you can't have sh--. You can't have no big screen TV! You can have it, but you better move it in at 3 in the morning. Paint it white, hope niggas think it's a bassinet. Can't have sh-- in your house! Why?! Because niggas will break into your house. Niggas that live next door to you break into your house, come over the next day and go, "I heard you got robbed." Nigga, you know you robbed me. You didn't see sh-- 'cause you was doing sh--!You can't go see a movie, you know why? coz niggas is shooting at the screen, "This movie's so good I gotta bust a cap in here!"You know the worst thing about niggas? Niggas always want credit for some sh-- they supposed to do. A nigga will brag about some sh-- a normal man just does. A nigga will say some sh-- like, "I take care of my kids." You're supposed to, you dumb mother!@#$er! What kind of ignorant sh-- is that? "I ain't never been to jail!" What do you want, a cookie?! You're not supposed to go to jail, you low-expectation-having mother!@#$er!"

This is all right on the money, as far as I'm concerned. The reality is, I think there are two key issues for helping do away with racism. The first was addressed very well by Obama in his speech to the NAACP, in particular, his Bill Cosby-like bit of...

So there is clearly a need for personal accountability. There are no excuses any more for most people, black or white.

yep

Alternately, people like myself (the son of a racist) need to ensure that we not only keep our minds open, but that we help our children to not see color.

And this is the point. Look, those of us who are white know that this is a white problem. Therefore, it's not going to get solved by minorities. And certainly not by minorities, or their white enablers, yelling "racist" at people for telling the truth. No amount of name calling or legislation or media attacks is going to solve REAL racism. What is going to solve it? Simple really: the next time you hear someone in your family say something bad about Jews, blacks, etc., tell them you don't want to hear that nonsense, and tell them that Chris Rock also said:

 

"Whoever you hate will end up in your family. You don't like gays? You're gonna have a gay son. You don't like Puerto Ricans? Your daughter's gonna come home with Livin' La Vida Loca!"

 

The professor is the one claiming racism and that is what made the headlines. Then you have your president and COMMANDER IN CHIEF commenting out his ass during a national press conference. Way to weaken your authority Mr President.

 

No he is backpeddling on national TV as I type this.

This is becoming a disturbing trend: Obama doesn't seem to be able to think on his feet. It may be no big deal, because everything is supposed to be planned out for a President...but I worry a little because some days schit just happens and you have to make the right call. Every time things have been "unscripted" both Obama AND Biden seem to f up. Also, I worry because the recent planned out stuff has been patently retarded as well.

 

And, with the reports coming out that Emmanuel and Alexrod are running things, I am starting to worry that we have another Bush-like guy in the White House. At this point, I think it's clear that it's time for Obama to start talking to Emmanuel AND Axelrod about their plans for life after politics, or at least after the white house. Right now, I don't think Obama will do that, even if things get worse.

[Dwight Drane]

This is becoming a disturbing trend: Obama doesn't seem to be able to think on his feet. It may be no big deal, because everything is supposed to be planned out for a President...but I worry a little because some days schit just happens and you have to make the right call. Every time things have been "unscripted" both Obama AND Biden seem to f up. Also, I worry because the recent planned out stuff has been patently retarded as well.

 

And, with the reports coming out that Emmanuel and Alexrod are running things, I am starting to worry that we have another Bush-like guy in the White House. At this point, I think it's clear that it's time for Obama to start talking to Emmanuel AND Axelrod about their plans for life after politics, or at least after the white house. Right now, I don't think Obama will do that, even if things get worse.

 

Obama is a very bright guy that is able to sit down, absorb information, and understand it at more than a basic level.

 

HOWEVER.....his pride is such that he needs to show the American people that he is able to do this. In doing so, when he goes off the cuff, he exposes what is going on behind the scenes. In previous press conferences, if you listened to what he really said, he admitted that America wis in the middle of a depression according to his economists. He didn't say those words, but by attemping to show he grasped the situation, he gave out too much information....saying his economists projected a contraction of demand of 2 trillion dollars over a two year span. Sure the government can spend into that, but if you piss on a forestfire....it's still a forestfire. He also said that the US can't expect lenders to continue funding our debt. "Eventually the party will be over, and in fact the party is over."

 

Both of those were in response to a reporter's question. There is no way in hell he would say if prepared. Now we have him calling cops stupid. Nothing like admitting you are on the verge of bankruptcy....but the trend continues.

 

Imagine if Bush came out after Katrina and said.."Those people that stayed for a category 5 hurricane are pretty stupid. What do you want me to do about it?" Kanye West would have killed a puppy on TV after that.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Obama is a very bright guy that is able to sit down, absorb information, and understand it at more than a basic level.

 

HOWEVER.....his pride is such that he needs to show the American people that he is able to do this. In doing so, when he goes off the cuff, he exposes what is going on behind the scenes. In previous press conferences, if you listened to what he really said, he admitted that America wis in the middle of a depression according to his economists. He didn't say those words, but by attemping to show he grasped the situation, he gave out too much information....saying his economists projected a contraction of demand of 2 trillion dollars over a two year span. Sure the government can spend into that, but if you piss on a forestfire....it's still a forestfire. He also said that the US can't expect lenders to continue funding our debt. "Eventually the party will be over, and in fact the party is over."

 

Both of those were in response to a reporter's question. There is no way in hell he would say if prepared. Now we have him calling cops stupid. Nothing like admitting you are on the verge of bankruptcy....but the trend continues.

 

Imagine if Bush came out after Katrina and said.."Those people that stayed for a category 5 hurricane are pretty stupid. What do you want me to do about it?" Kanye West would have killed a puppy on TV after that.

 

 

I agree. Yet, I can say it... The cop was pretty stupid... Made a bad judgement call. Disorderly conduct? Just let it go and move on. What is it with stupid cops?

 

And you are absolutely right... Anybody who stays for a CAT 5 is stupid... Same with anybody who relocates back into a flood plain after a flood (Upper MS floods).

[Nanker]

Hey. President BO called the cop and sorta apologized for his poor words craftsmanship.

[OCinBuffalo]

I agree. Yet, I can say it... The cop was pretty stupid... Made a bad judgement call. Disorderly conduct? Just let it go and move on. What is it with stupid cops?

 

And you are absolutely right... Anybody who stays for a CAT 5 is stupid... Same with anybody who relocates back into a flood plain after a flood (Upper MS floods).

On that point: how hard would it to have been to simply do an emergency round up of everything that wold move people and do a Sam Kinison:

 

"Get your kids, get your schit, we'll make one trip! We'll take you to where the Cat 5 isn't!" Seems like it wouldn't have been hard to get all but the immensely stupid out of there if they didn't have their own cars. EDIT: and let Darwin take it's course

 

On the other hand, they had 3 days notice. It's not like you can't walk 60 miles inland in 3 days and simply get rained on instead of dead.

[X. Benedict]

I still think the race issue is minor here......are there any conservatives here that are troubled seeing the

4th amendment trampled on.

 

 

once the officer identifies the homeowner - he has no other business there - none

The man was clearly not fleeing - the officer had NO business in that house. None.

Rather than wait at the door the officer made a warrantless entry.....

 

Gates acocount:

 

Mr. Gates: He said, I would like to you step outside. I said, absolutely not. I said, why are you here? He said, I’m investigating a breaking and entering charge. I said, this is my house, I’m a Harvard professor, I live here.

He said, can you prove it? I said, just a minute. I turned my back. I walked into the kitchen to get my Harvard ID and my Massachusetts driver’s license. He followed me without my permission. I gave him the two IDs and I demanded to know his name and his badge number.

 

 

I think Gates account is consistent with the policeman's.

 

Next he is arrested on the porch for tumultuous behavior.....

 

Who here is ready to declare their porch a public space? - (ridiculous idea).

When does your front porch stop being private property?

[YellowLinesandArmadillos]

I still think the race issue is minor here......are there any conservatives here that are troubled seeing the

4th amendment trampled on.

 

 

once the officer identifies the homeowner - he has no other business there - none

The man was clearly not fleeing - the officer had NO business in that house. None.

Rather than wait at the door the officer made a warrantless entry.....

 

Gates acocount:

 

Mr. Gates: He said, I would like to you step outside. I said, absolutely not. I said, why are you here? He said, I’m investigating a breaking and entering charge. I said, this is my house, I’m a Harvard professor, I live here.

He said, can you prove it? I said, just a minute. I turned my back. I walked into the kitchen to get my Harvard ID and my Massachusetts driver’s license. He followed me without my permission. I gave him the two IDs and I demanded to know his name and his badge number.

 

 

I think Gates account is consistent with the policeman's.

 

Next he is arrested on the porch for tumultuous behavior.....

 

Who here is ready to declare their porch a public space? - (ridiculous idea).

When does your front porch stop being private property?

 

Mine is to the road right of way thank you very much, so technically the officer once uninvited, though initially allowed on the property with probably cause ended once the ID was produced and then if no longer required because of ID proof was given, then the officer(s) were not wanted. Therefore, that officer is trespassing and the arrest is illegal. Seems to me the officers probably cause went out the window once the professor produced his ID.

[Fingon]

Mine is to the road right of way thank you very much, so technically the officer once uninvited, though initially allowed on the property with probably cause ended once the ID was produced and then if no longer required because of ID proof was given, then the officer(s) were not wanted. Therefore, that officer is trespassing and the arrest is illegal. Seems to me the officers probably cause went out the window once the professor produced his ID.

Trespassing law clearly does not apply here. Gates had full knowledge that he was there, and never asked him to leave. In fact, Gates wanted the police officer there so he could scream at him some more.