Tcali Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Translation: 9/14/09 @ 7:00 PM. I'll be happy if Brady only completes 3 TD passes to Moss in the 1st half, and I'll declare a moral victory if the final score is Patriots 54, Bills 20. The Pats vs Bills 07 may have been the biggest slaughter Ive ever seen on a football field.Could easily have been 80-0. A healthy Schobel and Kelsay were allowing Brady to have tea and crumpets and a light nap while choosing which wide open receivers to throw to. When it was 30-0 or something Jauron was still playing it safe. Maybin better be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billistic Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Hangardner vs Preston and Fowler is a modest upgrade by any means. You compare him to Larry Triplet but the big difference is Hangardner was a starter for 56% of the games while he was in Carolina (Which was a good offensive line). While I would say its a big upgrade even if you look at Hangardner with some doubt its still a modest upgrade. Greer was a good corner but its not like we lost Champ Bailey and its not like we have no one replacing them McKelvin was the top corner in the draft and showed signs last year. To me its a negligible difference between the two I will say that the depth is hurt but the starters are to me about the same. IF Schobel is healthy and Maybin can chip in 4.5 to 7 sacks we could see a seizable difference in the pass rush from last year to this year so thats an improvement. As for the rest of your analysis Its not too far off but those three things I would have to call Shenanigans on. You overrated the lost of Greer and underrated the impact even an average center could have on the line as well as the possible return of Schobel and the addition of Maybin. To me, our difference is mostly about Greer. My opinion: Greer was just coming into his own. That's what the Saints saw, and that's what I saw. End of story right there. Youboty = undependable, totally undependable Drayton Florrence = If he makes the team, shame. McKelvin = Great, raw athletic skills, but doesn't have a clue in single coverage. If he's coach-able, and the Bills have a coach (cough, cough) he might be good somewhere up the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 To me, our difference is mostly about Greer. My opinion: Greer was just coming into his own. That's what the Saints saw, and that's what I saw. End of story right there. Youboty = undependable, totally undependable Drayton Florrence = If he makes the team, shame. McKelvin = Great, raw athletic skills, but doesn't have a clue in single coverage. If he's coach-able, and the Bills have a coach (cough, cough) he might be good somewhere up the line. McKelvin to me has the physical skills and to me can be our version of Darell Revis. Trent Edwards (Yes our own Trent Edwards as a rookie) lite up Revis in his rookie year the kid looked lost out there. But the coaching staff said that the kid has great physical skills and just needed to see NFL action and than get coached up during the offseason. Shortly after he became a good NFL corner and now is looked at as a shutdown corner. To me McKelvin can step in a do well and play near what Greer was and even down the line exceed what Greer will ever be. McKelvin saw NFL action and didn't look too bad. He has the physical tools and say what you will about DJ he can coach a secondary so I think he can get the coaching and take the step up. So I think you are underrating McKelvin and what he can be this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billistic Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 BF89: I hope you're right. If he becomes a Derrelle Revis, that's obviously great. About Jauron/Frewell: I hate the way the play the corners so soft. Maybe it's my problem, but it makes me puke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Are the Bills a better team now than 2008? No right this second they are worse overall- their plan for Offensive tackle is a disaster, it nullifies every thing else positive they have done on offense- it gives the Bills the worse pair of offensive tackles in the NFL- for the love of Mike leave Walker at RT and deal with LT with Levi Jones, or D Bell , or even Chambers- even if those guys suck at least you know where to give help and you can roll-out right. On a lesser complaint they still need one more big good DT in the rotation - the Dline got pushed around like Christmas shopping carts when Stroud wasn't in there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Peters v. Walker cancels Owens v. nobody, so it's is a draw, except that Owens in one and done. Ludicrous. Simply ludicrous to assume the benefits of Owens are canceled by the loss of Peters. Ludicrous. Greer v. (Mckelvin&Youboty&Florence) = pretty big step backwards Wrong. [Dockery& Butler (to RT)] v. Eric&Andy = step backwards (at least for a year). Also wrong. Nelson v. Royal = just OK Nelson won't start a single game. Fine/Schouman > Royal. (Maybin&Schobel's back) v. (Denney&Ellis) = OK I'm not sure what Ellis has to do with 2008. But Maybin/Schobel/Kelsay/Denny/Johnson/Ellis > (x5) Denny/Kelsay/Johnson/Ellis "Thug Mode" v. D. (for DUI) Rhodes for few weeks = a little down No. It's Lynch/Jackson/Rhodes v Lynch/Jackson/Omon. Definitely an improvement. Lynch's suspension has nothing to do with what the organization has done to posture itself for 2009. I'll stop there. Hating on a team does not make you a knowledgeable fan. Making stuff up to hate on a team is even more baffling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billistic Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 TBC: ...ludicrous...wrong...also wrong...Nelson won't start a single game. Fine/Schouman > Royal...I'm not sure what Ellis has to do with 2008. But Maybin/Schobel/Kelsay/Denny/Johnson/Ellis > (x5) Denny/Kelsay/Johnson/Ellis...Lynch's suspension has nothing to do with what the organization has done to posture itself for 2009...and, finally... Hating on a team does not make you a knowledgeable fan. Making stuff up to hate on a team is even more baffling. Good for you! You show the ability to state your opinions. If Nelson doesn't see playing time, that means Jauron has shut down the offense, as usual. Everybody is better than Royal, except maybe me. I also don't see what Ellis had to do with 2008, except that the FO drafted him for some obscure reason. Actually, they thought he was going to be Maybin...ha, ha Maybe Maybin is better than Denney in certain situations. Maybe Maybin is another obscure tweener soon to be forgotten or relegated to special teams for 7 years. The thread topic is whether the 2009 Bills will be better than the 2008, NOT the posturing of the FO. Finally, my knowledge of football far exceeds your ability to puff yourself up, as will be shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 BF89: I hope you're right. If he becomes a Derrelle Revis, that's obviously great. About Jauron/Frewell: I hate the way the play the corners so soft. Maybe it's my problem, but it makes me puke. Very few teams use press coverage a lot of teams like to play soft because WR's when they break the press coverage are able to burn safeties. I think the Coaching staff played soft coverage because they weren't confident in their Free safety or Whitner to cover wide receivers if they break the press. I think thats why they drafted Byrd he is faster than most safeties and can compete somewhat with wide receivers speed wise. I hope if they feel confident in Byrd later in the season they will employ tighter coverage with the corners. If Byrd is good in coverage I think both he and Whitner can be good combo at safety in pass coverage. I think in general most teams are trying to get faster at FS and SS. In the future most FS will be converted corners due to the importance of pass coverage at the position. I also think the run stuffing SS will be a thing of the past. In the future SS will be more FS like guys some of whom can defend the run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billistic Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Very few teams use press coverage a lot of teams like to play soft because WR's when they break the press coverage are able to burn safeties. I think the Coaching staff played soft coverage because they weren't confident in their Free safety or Whitner to cover wide receivers if they break the press. I think thats why they drafted Byrd he is faster than most safeties and can compete somewhat with wide receivers speed wise. I hope if they feel confident in Byrd later in the season they will employ tighter coverage with the corners. If Byrd is good in coverage I think both he and Whitner can be good combo at safety in pass coverage. I think in general most teams are trying to get faster at FS and SS. In the future most FS will be converted corners due to the importance of pass coverage at the position. I also think the run stuffing SS will be a thing of the past. In the future SS will be more FS like guys some of whom can defend the run. 100% agreement. I just hate the Tampa 2 soft zones without any pressure on the QB. Sure, If you've got Sapp, Rice and Brooks, it's genius. If you've got Kelsay, Denney and Williams, it's stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 100% agreement. I just hate the Tampa 2 soft zones without any pressure on the QB. Sure, If you've got Sapp, Rice and Brooks, it's genius. If you've got Kelsay, Denney and Williams, it's stupid. Well they did draft Maybin so I guess they hope he can develop into a Rice like pass rusher. They also tried to get a penetrating DT in McGargo (Who knows he still could develop but its not looking that way). They also drafted Poz so its not like they haven't tried to add in pieces along the front 7 (Although they could have put more resources into the front 7). But yeah Tamp 2 is predicated on getting 4 guys who can rush the passer while you have great cover safeties and linebackers maximize your pass coverage and than you force ill advised passes into good coverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 The Bills didn't lose much with Greer leaving. He was a good player, but he played in just 10 games last year and his stating spot was going to be given to McKelvin (who showed he had the skills as a rookie) anyway. Greer's salary demands pretty much put the last nail in the coffin. Corner is a nice up-and-coming player, while Florence has experience, and anything from Youboty is gravy. Lankster may be something, but that remains to be seen. So if anything, the secondary is improved with the greater talent, experience, and depth. The only other place where major changes took place is the O-line. Gone are Peters, Dockery, and Preston/Fowler. Preston/Fowler were upgraded tremendously with Hangartner. Dockery could have been upgraded with a shrubbery, but for good measure, the Bills drafted the (consensus) top-rated OG (Levitre) to replace him. The real wildcard is Walker replacing Peters, whose 11.5 sacks surrendered (or 12, if you go by "football metrics" dude KC Joyner) were pretty poor. At worst the Bills go back to having Butler at RG and Walker at RT, Wood or Levitre starting at LG, and Bell or Chambers at LT. However to help-out the O-line, the Bills added a tremendous talent in TO. His presence will prevent teams from stacking the box. That will not only help the O-line in pass-blocking, but run-blocking as well. And they also added Dominic Rhodes, who is an excellent pass-blocker, and short-yardage and receiving RB. It wouldn't surprise me to see him out there as a rule on 3rd downs, maybe with another RB. Beyond that, the Bills get back Schobel, who played in 5 games last year and being healthy for at-best 4 of them, and added a pass-rushing specialist (for now) in Maybin. They also probably won't see a starter who had practiced at his position for the entire off- and pre-season up and quit on them just days before the start of the season, and that will be a big plus. If they can get someone better to replace Ellison, so much the better. And Sanders looks like a promising DL coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billistic Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 VOR said: The Bills didn't lose much with Greer leaving. He was a good player, but he played in just 10 games last year and his stating spot was going to be given to McKelvin (who showed he had the skills as a rookie) anyway. Greer's salary demands pretty much put the last nail in the coffin. Corner is a nice up-and-coming player, while Florence has experience, and anything from Youboty is gravy. ...and in a couple of years McKelvin's spot will be given to some other #10 draft pick since the Bills will finish 6-10, and so forth, and so on, as with Jones, Winfield, Clements, Greer, ad nauseum. One step forward, 1.5 steps back. Really, is $6 million so outrageous for a guy who can finally play a tight corner? Then everyone wonders why the Bills draft 4 corner backs each year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 100% agreement. I just hate the Tampa 2 soft zones without any pressure on the QB. Sure, If you've got Sapp, Rice and Brooks, it's genius. If you've got Kelsay, Denney and Williams, it's stupid. The Bills aren't better because DJ and the coaching staff are still around. When a HC goes 2-8 down the stretch and is rewarded with keeping his job, something's wrong. While I fully expect Edwards to be better, it remains to be seen how a retread former QB coach will game plan to maximize his strengths. That, and an offensive line which is a mix and match of guys playing out of position. That's not a recipe for a playoff appearance. If anything, Buffalo is stronger at the skill positions but still severely lacking on the DL and OL. It's almost as if they've followed the TD doctrine of getting good skill players and not pursuing good OL in the draft. That is, until this season. I think Bills fans who followed the team during TD know that having great skill players does not make up for being weak on the OL and DL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bflobarry Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 In every thread I keep reading about how Nelson and Bowen are going to be big factors this year (according to some po sters). I certainly would love to see that, but we're talking about 4th and 5th round rookies here people. Hellooooo? Why would every team in the league pass on Nelson 3 times if he's such a miracle man? Let's layer in a little reality here, people: Fine, or Shouman, will be playing, and so will Ellison, with his 3 years of starters experience vs Bowens never having seen an NFL field. Just my opinion, but not too many 4th or 5th round rookies start..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VOR Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 VOR said: ...and in a couple of years McKelvin's spot will be given to some other #10 draft pick since the Bills will finish 6-10, and so forth, and so on, as with Jones, Winfield, Clements, Greer, ad nauseum. One step forward, 1.5 steps back. Really, is $6 million so outrageous for a guy who can finally play a tight corner? Then everyone wonders why the Bills draft 4 corner backs each year... Greer wasn't worth $6M/year. He's a nice player, but not that nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 The problem is we can be better and still not sniff 8 wins. The difference between the two West divisions and the two Souths is quite dramatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paup 1995MVP Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 The Bills aren't better because DJ and the coaching staff are still around. When a HC goes 2-8 down the stretch and is rewarded with keeping his job, something's wrong. While I fully expect Edwards to be better, it remains to be seen how a retread former QB coach will game plan to maximize his strengths. That, and an offensive line which is a mix and match of guys playing out of position. That's not a recipe for a playoff appearance. If anything, Buffalo is stronger at the skill positions but still severely lacking on the DL and OL. It's almost as if they've followed the TD doctrine of getting good skill players and not pursuing good OL in the draft. That is, until this season. I think Bills fans who followed the team during TD know that having great skill players does not make up for being weak on the OL and DL. Dude, you seem to have some knowledge of football, but your bitterness towards the coaching staff is way over the top. We drafted the TOP TWO guards in this years draft. We let go of one of the most overrated players in football, who did not want to play for us. Good O lines are not solely based on pure talent. The best O lines are a bunch of grinders who wear you down, and play physical, tough and hard on every down. (2007 Giants) Peters at his best did not do this on every play, and Dockery NEVER played hard. Preston and Fowler played soft AND had no talent. I think you will see a whole different attitude with our O line from day one of preseason. An attitude of toughness set by the O line can do wonders for a teams psyche. Just watch and wait. Maybe you will even smile at the new attitude that we will see this year. GO BILLS!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 The problem is we can be better and still not sniff 8 wins. The difference between the two West divisions and the two Souths is quite dramatic. You don't know how good or bad each division is going to be in actuality so to say we can improve with less wins is a little premature. I get what you are saying that those divisions do look harder on paper but the teams we view as hard could have down years or suffer injuries. It happens all the time hard schedules turn out to be easy while easy schedules turn out to be harder than you think. Last year games with teams like Jacksonville and Green Bay looked like hard while games with Miami and Atlanta looked like penciled in wins. So what is hard on paper isn't always hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a player to be named later Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Yes, Too bad we aren't playing the same schedule as last year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numark Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Holy crap, doing so with just this topic, Billistic has become the most annoying and annoying and annoying poster I have seen on any forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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