The Avenger Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Good point. And just to clarify in case anyone feels that way, I have not been trying to lobby for anyone to believe however I may believe. I was simply trying to provide reasons for another perspective existing to a couple of posters who - and this was clear - could not begin to imagine why anyone would be against the idea of gay marriage. Bottom line: Whether or not you think homosexuals in this country should be married is completely your own opinion, and no one should be cut down for stating that they believe either way. This is why I started the topic in the first place. It was absolutely absurd for that question to be asked in a national forum like that pageant, and it is even more ridiculous that scores of people, most of whom have never even met or spoken with that young girl, to be publicly ridiculing her based solely upon an honest answer to a controversial question. What makes it worse is that Perez Hilton, the person who asked her that question, just so happens to be a homosexual. Sorry Perez, not everyone is going to tell you what you want to hear when you pose such a dynamic topic. When you say you don't lobby, does that include not going to vote on a ballot initiative barring gay marriage or providing financial support to groups lobbying? When I say everyone's entitled to their own opinions I mean that, but I have strict definition of personal opinion - it means you don't do anything to spread that viewpoint and impose it on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Dan's Revenge Posted April 22, 2009 Author Share Posted April 22, 2009 When you say you don't lobby, does that include not going to vote on a ballot initiative barring gay marriage or providing financial support to groups lobbying? When I say everyone's entitled to their own opinions I mean that, but I have strict definition of personal opinion - it means you don't do anything to spread that viewpoint and impose it on others. I've never had the opportunity to vote on a ballot initiative of that sort, but if one did happen in our area in the future, I'm sure I would vote on it. Voting and lobbying others to vote as you do are two completely different things, so I'm not real sure where you're trying to go with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 That seems like a fair and consistent response from the teabaggers. This is the best thing to happen to her, now she's going to become the poster child for the anti gay marriage crowd, and get plenty of publicity and speaking engagements from it. She was on FoxNews (of course), and said when she was asked the question, she asked God what she should do, and decided to say she was against it. The religious right will eat that up. She was also on MSNBC, so what excactly is your point about about her going on FoxNews? In case you do not believe me, look for yourself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m35zNXq7C0s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 I was thinking the same thing about 10 minutes ago. My bad.... That's alright KnockOut30, I like the debate on this subject. Besides we needed to talk about something besides Jason Peters being a dick, or Ralph Wilson being senile, or Russ Brandon and Dick Jauron being idiots, or another should-we-trade-up-should-we-trade-down thread. To answer your initial question, you are not off base. Miss California gave her opinion and whether people agree with her or not, she has the right to that opinion. Now if people disagree with her, fine, but if her opinion is the reason why she lost the pageant, then that is ridiculous. Alas we will never know if that is the reason why she lost. I think Perez Hilton is out of line for saying that she lost because she's a dumb b!tch. He did'nt have to ask her that question did he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 I think Perez Hilton is out of line for saying that she lost because she's a dumb b!tch. He did'nt have to ask her that question did he? I don't care for Perez, but I just saw the found the question he actually asked her, which was fine, IMO. Her answer sucked, as she avoided the question, but left the impression she might be a bigot. The question wasn't how she personally felt about gay marriage, it was: "Vermont recently became the fourth state to legalize same-sex marriage. Do you think every state should follow suit. Why or why not?" That's a legitimate question about a contemporary issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Dan's Revenge Posted April 22, 2009 Author Share Posted April 22, 2009 I don't care for Perez, but I just saw the found the question he actually asked her, which was fine, IMO. Her answer sucked, as she avoided the question, but left the impression she might be a bigot. The question wasn't how she personally felt about gay marriage, it was: "Vermont recently became the fourth state to legalize same-sex marriage. Do you think every state should follow suit. Why or why not?" That's a legitimate question about a contemporary issue. C'mon, Dean. Obviously to provide a sufficient answer to that question you have to think about your personal feelings about gay marriage. "Do you think every state should follow suit. Why or why not?" In order to answer that, you're going to be forced to share your feelings about it, one way or another. There's not much of a way to get around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcjeff215 Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 C'mon, Dean. Obviously to provide a sufficient answer to that question you have to think about your personal feelings about gay marriage. "Do you think every state should follow suit. Why or why not?" In order to answer that, you're going to be forced to share your feelings about it, one way or another. There's not much of a way to get around it. "I believe that it's up to each individual state and the independent constituency within. I want what's correct for each state when the political climate is correct. As Miss America, I'll do my part to ensure every voice is heard." Successfully avoided without any personal feelings weaved in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 C'mon, Dean. Obviously to provide a sufficient answer to that question you have to think about your personal feelings about gay marriage. "Do you think every state should follow suit. Why or why not?" In order to answer that, you're going to be forced to share your feelings about it, one way or another. There's not much of a way to get around it. It's a tough question, but I think it reveals bigotry pretty quickly. A response like "I was raised to believe that marriage is between a man and a women, but I support the rights of those who disagree with me to have the same rights as I do", would have worked nice and find. But, I understand she was on the spot, and I have time to think about a response, so I will try to not judge her too harshly. You do understand you can be against something personally, yet support the right for that thing to exist...right? It is as if that has been forgotten (or was never taught) to a large number of people. I have a suspicion that Ms California rarely thinks about issues from a perspective other than her own, and that response certainly supports that suspicion...but, as I said, she was on the spot, so I will let it go. I have yet to see the interviews she did after the pageant, as I don't care much about her or the pageant. Did she clear things up and admit she shouldn't have a say in whether homosexuals decide to marry, as it is really none of her business? Because, that is the bottom line. It is none of anyone's business other than those who want to get married, as it impacts nobody but them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 "I believe that it's up to each individual state and the independent constituency within. I want what's correct for each state when the political climate is correct. As Miss America, I'll do my part to ensure every voice is heard." Successfully avoided without any personal feelings weaved in. That's the "coaches answer" that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcjeff215 Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 That's the "coaches answer" that's for sure. Yeah, we'll have to review the tape before I can comment on that, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Could care a less if gays get married or not. To me, the bigger issue is how these propositions get overturned. The vote was against it. End of story. Move on. Why even bother having them if they don't have any real meaning? I guess they will keep having votes on this thing until they get the answer they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Adams Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Opinions are not true nor false. They are his beliefs. They could be as correct or as ass-backwards as anything else out there. Let him have at it. As long as it doesnt bother you, what do you care? Unless hes in a legislative or judicial body, his opinions mean sh-- to anyone except himself. Duh. Wrong opinions (and there is such a thing as right and wrong is there not?) affect how people think and vote. You, for example, are subject to constant ridicule for your opinions on PPP--and you often ridicule others for expressing their (usually more correct than your) opinions--so don't act santimonious like you're a "live and let live" guy because you are far from it. You're judgmental too. And that's a good thing. We should judge people when they say stupid things. That doesn't take away their (your) right to be stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Could care a less if gays get married or not. To me, the bigger issue is how these propositions get overturned. The vote was against it. End of story. Move on. Why even bother having them if they don't have any real meaning? I guess they will keep having votes on this thing until they get the answer they want. Eventually it will have to be decided at the Federal level. But, this is the kind of noise that needs to be made, on local and state levels, to get the Federal government involved. I'm pretty sure the anti-slavery, and women's rights movements had similar periods (although I'm not certain about women's rights). I'm not sure why anyone would expect a referendum to be a fair when it involves minority rights. In this case, gays being the minority. Thankfully, the USA is NOT a democracy, and minority rights are protected...or at least should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt. Dan's Revenge Posted April 23, 2009 Author Share Posted April 23, 2009 "I believe that it's up to each individual state and the independent constituency within. I want what's correct for each state when the political climate is correct. As Miss America, I'll do my part to ensure every voice is heard." Successfully avoided without any personal feelings weaved in. Okay, so when you ask someone a question you would prefer that they answer you with a bunch of bullsh*t rather than honestly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Okay, so when you ask someone a question you would prefer that they answer you with a bunch of bullsh*t rather than honestly? Well, in certain situations, sure. I'd prefer she answer the question, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcjeff215 Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Okay, so when you ask someone a question you would prefer that they answer you with a bunch of bullsh*t rather than honestly? Of course not. That's not the issue though. I actually kind of respect her for stating what she honestly felt, regardless of the reasoning behind it. My point is that I think she could have answered it in a much more diplomatic manner, which would have probably been a bit more beneficial to her. I really think that if she would have left out that "in my country" bit she would have been okay. That takes it from a personal morality standpoint to a national political position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I don't care for Perez, but I just saw the found the question he actually asked her, which was fine, IMO. Her answer sucked, as she avoided the question, but left the impression she might be a bigot. The question wasn't how she personally felt about gay marriage, it was: "Vermont recently became the fourth state to legalize same-sex marriage. Do you think every state should follow suit. Why or why not?" That's a legitimate question about a contemporary issue. I think her answer was pretty good. True her answer was not directly specific to the question that was asked of her, yet I think her point was made clear. However that question is very loaded and can not be answered in just 15 seconds, without proper detail. For example, Perez's question was about Vermont being a state to legalize same-sex marriage, so should every state follow suit? Now think about this carefully. Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut & Iowa are the only states to legalize same-sex marriage. In Vermont's case it was passed by the state legislature, the other 3 states were passed by the courts. None of these states had this issue put to a vote of the people. California did have same-sex marriage put on the ballot TWICE, and both times they were voted down. So does Perez Hilton want same-sex marriage to be decided by the courts or by the people? There is a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Or does Perez Hilton want to spark a little controversy and get his name in the news? He got the exact answer he wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 I think her answer was pretty good. True her answer was not directly specific to the question that was asked of her, yet I think her point was made clear. However that question is very loaded and can not be answered in just 15 seconds, without proper detail.For example, Perez's question was about Vermont being a state to legalize same-sex marriage, so should every state follow suit? Now think about this carefully. Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut & Iowa are the only states to legalize same-sex marriage. In Vermont's case it was passed by the state legislature, the other 3 states were passed by the courts. None of these states had this issue put to a vote of the people. California did have same-sex marriage put on the ballot TWICE, and both times they were voted down. So does Perez Hilton want same-sex marriage to be decided by the courts or by the people? There is a difference. It is a matter for the court, in the end, but Congress could preempt that by acting with some forethought. Gays are denied the same right to a recognized union (between significant others) that is available to heterosexuals. Allowing them these rights does nothing to infringe on the rights of heterosexuals, or anyone else. It's very cut and dry, actually. Arguments to the contrary, and suggestions that this should be voted upon by the, mostly straight, population will seem as ridiculous 50 years from now, as similar arguments made regarding the abolition of slavery, giving women the right to vote, etc did before those things were the law of the land. When you are one of the oppressed, you don't really care if the changes are made by the courts or "the people"...you just want the changes to be made. Perez Hilton may be a worthless, celebrity obsessed, pseudo-celebrity, but he deserves the same rights as the equally putrid Paris Hilton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted April 23, 2009 Share Posted April 23, 2009 Or does Perez Hilton want to spark a little controversy and get his name in the news? He got the exact answer he wanted. That's very possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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