Dr. Fong Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I think Tony Mandarich doesn't belong on the list. He did more in his career than anyone else on that list except possibly Pacman Jones. No doubt he was a bust, a big bust but certainly not number one and arguably not one of the top ten. He's a favorite whipping boy because of the Sports Illustrated cover and all the hype. Yeah he's the guy lazy "journalists" roll out when they make these inane lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 At least the problem with Mike Williams was scouting rather than grossly misunderstanding the needs of the team. It would have been a great pick had he been a star tackle, and a solid pick even if he were just reliable. It's our current administrations' repeated decisions to ignore our needs that gets to me. I don't know how the front office has ignored our needs. They signed a bunch of o-linemen and drafted a DT in the 1st round. In our first year with new guys on oline, we set a franchise record for fewest sacks allowed with Losman and a rookie QB. McCargo was starting to break out in 2007 and then who knows what happened in 2008. So I don't think it's so much ignoring our needs rather than picking the wrong players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My Friends Call Me Tebucky Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I'd put Akili Smith on there before Couch or Warrick. Warrick was actually a pretty damn good slot receiver and punt returner. Not what you hope for from a 4th overall guy, but at least he contributed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I'd put Akili Smith on there before Couch or Warrick. Warrick was actually a pretty damn good slot receiver and punt returner. Not what you hope for from a 4th overall guy, but at least he contributed. Couch actually started better than he finished- be beat Pittsburgh 2 of his first 3 times. He was rushed into the starting lineup way too soon with a pourous offensive line, no offensive weapons (Kevin Johnson, you must be kidding me!) and a makeshift defense. He was pounded into oblivion on a bad team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Jabber Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Cincinnati & Detroit have had the worst luck in the past. This is a little off the topic, but the biggest boneheaded move of all-time had to been when Mike Ditka traded all of his draft picks that year, plus the following years 1st round pick to the Colts for Ricky Williams. What a waste for the Saints! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Good Old Mike Williams lol What a joke! Which one? Both Mike Williamses belong on the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseeboy Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 If I remember we didn't go with all pro McKinney because of "character" issues. NICE is not a quality we should be looking for in an offensive tackle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Cold Bruschi Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Actually, the Patriots secretly haven't had a good draft in like four years. In the '07 draft we got Lynchabove average, Pozmediocre, and Edwardssucks. The rest of the draft was notoriously weak. I think the Pats cut every player they drafted outside of their top pick (Meriweather). Their 2006 draft, aside from Gostkowski, was pretty poor too. Time will tell on the 2008 draft.their 05 draft was pretty great getting an all pro guard in logan mankins at #32 our starting right tackel Nick Kazcur at the end of the 3rd. Our starting corner Ellis Hobbs, our starting SS James Sanders, oh and Matt Cassel who we just got a 2nd round pick for, pretty damn good draft if you ask me. The 06 draft was noticibly worse Maroney, pretty much a bust because of injuries, Chad Jackson total bust. Pretty much only got Gostkowski who is an all pro kicker so atleast we got something. The 07 draft we drafted Meriweather who is becoming a beast at this point, then we didn't draft anyone in until the 4th round so we cut a bunch of 5th 6th and 7th rounders who couldn't make the cut to be part of uhhh I dunno THE MOST DOMINANT TEAM OF ALL TIME of course we weren't going to have room for late round scrubs to groom. As for the 08 draft we go the DROY so as of now its a success but we have our backup qb and a few good corners so theirs a good ceiling on this class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 their 05 draft was pretty great getting an all pro guard in logan mankins at #32 our starting right tackel Nick Kazcur at the end of the 3rd. Our starting corner Ellis Hobbs, our starting SS James Sanders, oh and Matt Cassel who we just got a 2nd round pick for, pretty damn good draft if you ask me. The 06 draft was noticibly worse Maroney, pretty much a bust because of injuries, Chad Jackson total bust. Pretty much only got Gostkowski who is an all pro kicker so atleast we got something. The 07 draft we drafted Meriweather who is becoming a beast at this point, then we didn't draft anyone in until the 4th round so we cut a bunch of 5th 6th and 7th rounders who couldn't make the cut to be part of uhhh I dunno THE MOST DOMINANT TEAM OF ALL TIME of course we weren't going to have room for late round scrubs to groom. As for the 08 draft we go the DROY so as of now its a success but we have our backup qb and a few good corners so theirs a good ceiling on this class. So...you're making my point for me? You had a good 2005 draft, but had poor ones in '06, '07, and the jury is still out on '08 (since it largely depends on the success of guys like Wilhite, Wheatley, and Slater). Wait, what was your point again? I'm pretty sure my post said "haven't had a good draft in like four years," and 2005 was four years ago. Leave it to a Patriots fan to have an inferiority complex and showcase it on a Buffalo Bills message board... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibs Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Let's see.....big busts(IMO).....#1 to #7 pick.....up to 2005. #1s DT Steve Emtman RB Ki-Jana Carter QB Tim Couch DE Courtney Brown QB David Carr QB Alex Smith #2s OT Tony Mandarich RB Blair Thomas QB Rick Mirer QB Ryan Leaf WR Charles Rogers #3s DB Bruce Pickens QB Heath Shuler DE Andre Wadsworth QB Akili Smith QB Joey Harrington #4s WR Desmond Howard WR Michael Westbrook WR Peter Warrick OT Mike Williams RB Cedric Benson #5s LB Trev Alberts DE Cedric Jones DB Bryant Westbrook RB Curtis Enis RB Cadillac Williams #6s QB David Klingler DE Eric Curry RB Lawrence Phillips DT Ryan Sims DT Johnathan Sullivan DB Pacman Jones #7s RB Tim Worley QB Andre Ware OT Charles McRae QB Byron Leftwich WR Troy Williamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SABURZFAN Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Let's see.....big busts(IMO).....#1 to #7 pick.....up to 2005. #1s DT Steve Emtman RB Ki-Jana Carter QB Tim Couch DE Courtney Brown QB David Carr QB Alex Smith #2s OT Tony Mandarich RB Blair Thomas QB Rick Mirer QB Ryan Leaf WR Charles Rogers #3s DB Bruce Pickens QB Heath Shuler DE Andre Wadsworth QB Akili Smith QB Joey Harrington #4s WR Desmond Howard WR Michael Westbrook WR Peter Warrick OT Mike Williams RB Cedric Benson #5s LB Trev Alberts DE Cedric Jones DB Bryant Westbrook RB Curtis Enis RB Cadillac Williams #6s QB David Klingler DE Eric Curry RB Lawrence Phillips DT Ryan Sims DT Johnathan Sullivan DB Pacman Jones #7s RB Tim Worley QB Andre Ware OT Charles McRae QB Byron Leftwich WR Troy Williamson that's why the draft is a crapshoot. i didn't realize that there were so many players that i have forgotten. then again, they didn't do squat to help anybody remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 If I remember we didn't go with all pro McKinney because of "character" issues. NICE is not a quality we should be looking for in an offensive tackle. Bryant McKinnie NEVER gave up a sack at any level of football prior to the draft. That, and the fact that he played LEFT tackle (whereas M. Williams played right tackle) automatically made McKinnie the better prospect. I never understood the Mike Williams pick. their 05 draft was pretty great getting an all pro guard in logan mankins at #32 our starting right tackel Nick Kazcur at the end of the 3rd. Our starting corner Ellis Hobbs, our starting SS James Sanders, oh and Matt Cassel who we just got a 2nd round pick for, pretty damn good draft if you ask me. The 06 draft was noticibly worse Maroney, pretty much a bust because of injuries, Chad Jackson total bust. Pretty much only got Gostkowski who is an all pro kicker so atleast we got something. The 07 draft we drafted Meriweather who is becoming a beast at this point, then we didn't draft anyone in until the 4th round so we cut a bunch of 5th 6th and 7th rounders who couldn't make the cut to be part of uhhh I dunno THE MOST DOMINANT TEAM OF ALL TIME of course we weren't going to have room for late round scrubs to groom. As for the 08 draft we go the DROY so as of now its a success but we have our backup qb and a few good corners so theirs a good ceiling on this class. So...you're making my point for me? You had a good 2005 draft, but had poor ones in '06, '07, and the jury is still out on '08 (since it largely depends on the success of guys like Wilhite, Wheatley, and Slater). Wait, what was your point again? I'm pretty sure my post said "haven't had a good draft in like four years," and 2005 was four years ago. Leave it to a Patriots fan to have an inferiority complex and showcase it on a Buffalo Bills message board... What, no response??? Let's see.....big busts(IMO).....#1 to #7 pick.....up to 2005. #1s DT Steve Emtman RB Ki-Jana Carter QB Tim Couch DE Courtney Brown QB David Carr QB Alex Smith #2s OT Tony Mandarich RB Blair Thomas QB Rick Mirer QB Ryan Leaf WR Charles Rogers #3s DB Bruce Pickens QB Heath Shuler DE Andre Wadsworth QB Akili Smith QB Joey Harrington #4s WR Desmond Howard WR Michael Westbrook WR Peter Warrick OT Mike Williams RB Cedric Benson #5s LB Trev Alberts DE Cedric Jones DB Bryant Westbrook RB Curtis Enis RB Cadillac Williams #6s QB David Klingler DE Eric Curry RB Lawrence Phillips DT Ryan Sims DT Johnathan Sullivan DB Pacman Jones #7s RB Tim Worley QB Andre Ware OT Charles McRae QB Byron Leftwich WR Troy Williamson Great list, except wasn't Mirer a #3? Not 100% sure. Great list, though. Notice Cadillac Williams was a bust AFTER ripping us a new !@#$ on opening day, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 So...you're making my point for me? You had a good 2005 draft, but had poor ones in '06, '07, and the jury is still out on '08 (since it largely depends on the success of guys like Wilhite, Wheatley, and Slater). Wait, what was your point again? I'm pretty sure my post said "haven't had a good draft in like four years," and 2005 was four years ago. Leave it to a Patriots fan to have an inferiority complex and showcase it on a Buffalo Bills message board... Patriot fan with an inferiority complex? Anyway, I think he made the point that the Pats had a few busts, a few guys like Gotkowski (who easily replaced AdamV.) and Merriweather--both in the past few years---and that the rest were low round picks who disappeared. Mayo does not seem like a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Busts are difficult to define. They get placed with this tag for various reasons, be it production, off-field disruptions, injury or team direction. Some teams are just horrib environments for growing talents, for years Cincinnati, Arizona, St.Louis, New Orleans and Cleveland ended careers before they began. Tim Couch, David Carr & Joey Harrington are perfect examples of teams with poor offensive lines, poor receiving corps, poor front offices, horrid culture and bad team direction. Mike Williams & Aaron Gibson are prime examples of amazing physical linemen whose size dictated their abilities in the NCAA but once placed in the NFL where the in game assignments were far more stressing they found themselves "ballooning" out of shape the way their bank accounts "Ballooned" as soon as they arrived in the NFL. Charles Rogers, David Terrell and Peter Warrick are examples of once again bad organizations with bad directions. Charles Rogers was billed as the next Randy Moss because of his speed and vertical abilities but several injuries and poor direction by the front office killed that selection. David Terrell came to the Bears after they'd given up on Cade McNown too early and before Lovie Smith took over with the "team first" directive. Terrell could have been a "good receiver" but I don't think he was capable of producing at the spot he was taken. And Peter Warrick was a Bengal, nuff said. Running backs are products of where, when and who...Lawrence Phillips was an amazing talent with a bad attitude who was drafted by a bad team with a bad direction. It was just a chemical disaster waiting to take place, KiJana Carter was a productive player from a prestige school, but his talent was not meant for the NFL. His "breakaway" speed was seen as flawed at the combine and his ability to shed tacklers was nonexistant. The fact is when you draft a player you must take into consideration reality, is our team moral good? if not then I must draft a player who is mentally capable of handling the frustrations that come with the current climate. Is my offensive line poor? do I have a second option or a primary option at that position I.E. Quarterback and or Wide Receiver, which are positions that require seasoning and experience to be successful at this level when coupled with poor teams. Busts are just the wrong number in the wrong place in a math equation...putting the wrong player in the wrong place always ends up with a result that has the teacher cleaning the chalk board to start all over again...so hopefully this year we don't make the same mistakes and our numbers add up...cross your fingers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Patriot fan with an inferiority complex? Anyway, I think he made the point that the Pats had a few busts, a few guys like Gotkowski (who easily replaced AdamV.) and Merriweather--both in the past few years---and that the rest were low round picks who disappeared. Mayo does not seem like a bust. Mayo and Meriweather were first rounders. It's easy to hit with a first rounder (unless you're Tom Donahoe, of course). What made Belichick successful were his hits in the later rounds. My point was in '06 and '07 Belichick missed and missed big. If I'm not mistaken, Gostkowski is the only player selected after round 1 that is still on the roster from those drafts, and it's far too early to judge the 2008 draft. I just find it amusing that this loser Pats fan would come on to a Buffalo Bills message board feeling the need to more or less make my point for me...and then go on about his team being the best team EVAH!! As if I don't get enough of that here in Boston... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Mayo and Meriweather were first rounders. It's easy to hit with a first rounder (unless you're Tom Donahoe, of course). What made Belichick successful were his hits in the later rounds. My point was in '06 and '07 Belichick missed and missed big. If I'm not mistaken, Gostkowski is the only player selected after round 1 that is still on the roster from those drafts, and it's far too early to judge the 2008 draft. I just find it amusing that this loser Pats fan would come on to a Buffalo Bills message board feeling the need to more or less make my point for me...and then go on about his team being the best team EVAH!! As if I don't get enough of that here in Boston... If your point is that BB has lost his touch, well......keep going. It's like this---if your team sucks, there is plenty of room on the roster for 4th, 5th , 6th rounders---as starters even. So having a bunch of second day guys on your team doesn't necessarily mean you are a wizard in the war room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuklz2594 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Wasn't Perry Tuttle a 1st round pick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 If your point is that BB has lost his touch, well......keep going. Thanks, yeah, that wasn't what I was saying at all. Thanks for the input, though. It's like this---if your team sucks, there is plenty of room on the roster for 4th, 5th , 6th rounders---as starters even. So having a bunch of second day guys on your team doesn't necessarily mean you are a wizard in the war room. That could explain some, but not all. If you know you have a stacked roster and don't want to draft anyone then trade away your picks for future ones instead of wasting them on guys you will inevitably cut. I don't buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Cold Bruschi Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 So...you're making my point for me? You had a good 2005 draft, but had poor ones in '06, '07, and the jury is still out on '08 (since it largely depends on the success of guys like Wilhite, Wheatley, and Slater). Wait, what was your point again? I'm pretty sure my post said "haven't had a good draft in like four years," and 2005 was four years ago. Leave it to a Patriots fan to have an inferiority complex and showcase it on a Buffalo Bills message board... Considering we traded our 2nd rounder for Welker and our 2nd 1st rounder for the picks that got us Mayo and Moss I'd say the 07 picks were used pretty damn well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haven Moses Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 No Tom Cousineau? Al Cowlings? Ruud and Nelson? Walt Patulski? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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