Offensive scheme question that has been bothering me...

[OCinBuffalo]

This has been bothering me for a long time but I kept forgetting to post it. Sorry if this was already discussed at the time. Anyway, I don't remember which week Edwards said this, but he definitely said something to this effect:

 

"I'm happy because this week the game plan is so simple." We won that game(I'm pretty sure) and there were hardly any mistakes on Offense.

 

So what's bothering me about that is:

Is it that the O game plans on this team are overly complex as a rule?

or..

Is it that Edwards can't handle the complexity of the NFL?

 

My guess is the first one, and here's why: it seems that there is a common theme in theme in the NFL that says that O coordinators are out to prove how smart they are first, win games second. I have read/heard/seen this stated, and seen players reacting to it, both on and off the field, all over the league, fairly consistently this year.

 

Somehow I don't think the second alternative is very likely, or, I'm hoping like hell that it isn't.

 

What do you guys think? It's not like Edwards doesn't have the skills to make the tight throws. Perhaps we should be hoping for Schonert to trade some complexity of the scheme for letting the players play.

[Got_Wood]

Although I don't have evidence that says it is the case, I agree with you. The fact that we regressed as the season went on instead of progressed was disturbing. And the fact that Hardy was having a hard time figuring out the offense, and particularly where to line up was also disturbing.

 

It seems to me that you should make it simple for younger players especially when designing game plans. You could run an entire game out of one or two formations, and still be successful. You need to mix up where the ball goes, the patterns receivers run, and the gaps you run the RBs.

 

Look at the double wing offense, or the spread option offense. Same formation, but very difficult to stop. (yes I know it's college football, but the concept is what matters)

 

We can't overthink ourselves. I hope Turk and Dick prove me wrong this season, but my hope is at an all time low.

[Fewell733]

Brett Favre himself has said that an offense really only needs 6 plays run to perfection to be successful. That means plays that everyone on offense knows like the back of their hand. It seems like we often are relying on plays that we run a couple times during the week (according to press conferences after the fact). A lot of offenses seem needlessly complicated and tend to take what would be the common sense approach and invert it so as to be clever. Some of these offensive geniuses have 700 page playbooks - what the heck is the point?

[PushthePile]

I don't think that Edwards mentally is overwhelmed by the complexity of the playbook. I do however wonder if physically he is limiting to a coordinator. His mistakes seem more physical than mental. Many of his interceptions come from under thrown balls or off target passes. His ability to read a defense and deliver to the right guy seems pretty good. Execution is the problem, at least on anything medium to deep. The inability to even take a chance downfield is crippling to a coordinator. Even when given ample time, he doesn't pull the trigger. This makes for a fairly stale game plan. JP on the otherhand was way overwhelmed mentally. HA HA leave it to the Bills, always screwing with us.

[BuffaloBill]

Brett Favre himself has said that an offense really only needs 6 plays run to perfection to be successful. That means plays that everyone on offense knows like the back of their hand. It seems like we often are relying on plays that we run a couple times during the week (according to press conferences after the fact). A lot of offenses seem needlessly complicated and tend to take what would be the common sense approach and invert it so as to be clever. Some of these offensive geniuses have 700 page playbooks - what the heck is the point?

 

 

Jimbo basically admitted that K-Gun was run off a limited number of plays - 6 seems low - but it really was not many. The basic philosphy was that we are going to beat you on an individual and collective basis by attacking you.

 

While it is hard for me to say for sure, generally i think the sentiment that says gameplans and playbooks are too thick has merit.

[keepthefaith]

This has been bothering me for a long time but I kept forgetting to post it. Sorry if this was already discussed at the time. Anyway, I don't remember which week Edwards said this, but he definitely said something to this effect:

 

"I'm happy because this week the game plan is so simple." We won that game(I'm pretty sure) and there were hardly any mistakes on Offense.

 

So what's bothering me about that is:

Is it that the O game plans on this team are overly complex as a rule?

or..

Is it that Edwards can't handle the complexity of the NFL?

 

My guess is the first one, and here's why: it seems that there is a common theme in theme in the NFL that says that O coordinators are out to prove how smart they are first, win games second. I have read/heard/seen this stated, and seen players reacting to it, both on and off the field, all over the league, fairly consistently this year.

 

Somehow I don't think the second alternative is very likely, or, I'm hoping like hell that it isn't.

 

What do you guys think? It's not like Edwards doesn't have the skills to make the tight throws. Perhaps we should be hoping for Schonert to trade some complexity of the scheme for letting the players play.

 

Perhaps Jauron will win the lottery and retire.

[BuffaloBill]

Perhaps Jauron will win the lottery and retire.

We would never be that lucky - besides i assume the guy is already worth a pile of money.

[thewildrabbit]

If you read what Cris Collinsworth has to say about Turk Schonert,his golfing buddy, He is not one to lack confidence almost to a fault. Its my take that he wanted to build a high powered passing offense and it simply didn't work,although it wasn't for lack of trying,constant throwing instead of running the ball.

 

The Bills were a total passing team for most of the season, it wasn't until the Cleveland game that Schonert started using play action passing regularly. The Bills were in constant shotgun formations throughout the season.

 

Schonert might have been somewhat frustrated at Edwards because he kept using the check down for various reasons,so he kept calling passes. Seriously,what would you have Edwards do if he doesn't see anyone open down field,throw an interception,hold the ball and take a sack or use the dump off?

If Lee Evans is covered,which was most of the time, his only real other option was Josh Reed. When Josh Reed was injured the offense really stalled in the passing game,no other receiver stepped up.

 

Lynch had 47 receptions for 300 yards receiving and Jackson had 37 receptions for 317 yards,that's a ton of throws to the backs.

 

Stating all this, the Bills really need another quality deep speed receiving threat to help take some pressure off both Lee Evans and Trent Edwards.

[reddogblitz]

Jimbo basically admitted that K-Gun was run off a limited number of plays - 6 seems low - but it really was not many. The basic philosphy was that we are going to beat you on an individual and collective basis by attacking you.

 

While it is hard for me to say for sure, generally i think the sentiment that says gameplans and playbooks are too thick has merit.

 

In Marv's book he says that the K-Gun had about 8 plays in a game plan on any given sunday. Maybe it was 6. Anyway, it was under 10.

[PushthePile]

If you read what Cris Collinsworth has to say about Turk Schonert,his golfing buddy, He is not one to lack confidence almost to a fault. Its my take that he wanted to build a high powered passing offense and it simply didn't work,although it wasn't for lack of trying,constant throwing instead of running the ball.

 

The Bills were a total passing team for most of the season, it wasn't until the Cleveland game that Schonert started using play action passing regularly. The Bills were in constant shotgun formations throughout the season.

 

Schonert might have been somewhat frustrated at Edwards because he kept using the check down for various reasons,so he kept calling passes. Seriously,what would you have Edwards do if he doesn't see anyone open down field,throw an interception,hold the ball and take a sack or use the dump off?

If Lee Evans is covered,which was most of the time, his only real other option was Josh Reed. When Josh Reed was injured the offense really stalled in the passing game,no other receiver stepped up.

 

Lynch had 47 receptions for 300 yards receiving and Jackson had 37 receptions for 317 yards,that's a ton of throws to the backs.

 

Stating all this, the Bills really need another quality deep speed receiving threat to help take some pressure off both Lee Evans and Trent Edwards.

I think evereyone can agree that getting the ball down field a little more is something the offense needs to improve on. It would go a long way in opening things up IMO. Truthfully the blaim lies on a few people. First and foremost, a pass first offense in buffalo, with the current players we have, is plain stupid. Second Trent needs to learn how to let it go a little more. The pass protection has been great at times and it's not logical to think that nobody was ever open. I can remember quite a few times when it seemed like an eternity that he had the ball, only to get a checkdown or throw away. Another quality playmaker at WR or TE would help lee out alot.

[Flbillsfan#1]

If you read what Cris Collinsworth has to say about Turk Schonert,his golfing buddy, He is not one to lack confidence almost to a fault. Its my take that he wanted to build a high powered passing offense and it simply didn't work,although it wasn't for lack of trying,constant throwing instead of running the ball.

 

The Bills were a total passing team for most of the season, it wasn't until the Cleveland game that Schonert started using play action passing regularly. The Bills were in constant shotgun formations throughout the season.

 

Schonert might have been somewhat frustrated at Edwards because he kept using the check down for various reasons,so he kept calling passes. Seriously,what would you have Edwards do if he doesn't see anyone open down field,throw an interception,hold the ball and take a sack or use the dump off?

If Lee Evans is covered,which was most of the time, his only real other option was Josh Reed. When Josh Reed was injured the offense really stalled in the passing game,no other receiver stepped up.

 

Lynch had 47 receptions for 300 yards receiving and Jackson had 37 receptions for 317 yards,that's a ton of throws to the backs.

 

Stating all this, the Bills really need another quality deep speed receiving threat to help take some pressure off both Lee Evans and Trent Edwards.

Announcers on TV said it, & people that were at the games reported it on this board, MANY TIMES Evans or another receiver was WIDE OPEN downfield & Trent checked down for NO REASON.

[reddogblitz]

Announcers on TV said it, & people that were at the games reported it on this board, MANY TIMES Evans or another receiver was WIDE OPEN downfield & Trent checked down for NO REASON.

 

I was at the Clowns game and Lee and Steve Johnson were open all night and Trent would only throw to Marwhawn and Fred. If he'd a had Jerry Rice out there I doubt he woulda thrown it to him either.

[jwws9999]

I was at the Clowns game and Lee and Steve Johnson were open all night and Trent would only throw to Marwhawn and Fred. If he'd a had Jerry Rice out there I doubt he woulda thrown it to him either.

 

 

Evans was open alot, trent was either to scared or his arm too weak to get him the ball

[Flbillsfan#1]

Evans was open alot, trent was either to scared or his arm too weak to get him the ball

This aside from his durability issue is a MAJOR weakness in Trent's game. When the other team KNOWS you aren't going down field it makes running the ball VERY difficult & the dump off passes don't pick up as many yards as they would otherwise because the defense stays near the line of scrimmage.

[Grinder]

In Marv's book he says that the K-Gun had about 8 plays in a game plan on any given sunday. Maybe it was 6. Anyway, it was under 10.

 

I would like to know how many of Thurman's rushing yards came from the counter trey. That was their bread and butter. When was the last time a Bills team had a bread and butter play like that?

[ganesh]

Although I don't have evidence that says it is the case, I agree with you. The fact that we regressed as the season went on instead of progressed was disturbing. And the fact that Hardy was having a hard time figuring out the offense, and particularly where to line up was also disturbing.

 

It seems to me that you should make it simple for younger players especially when designing game plans. You could run an entire game out of one or two formations, and still be successful. You need to mix up where the ball goes, the patterns receivers run, and the gaps you run the RBs.

 

Look at the double wing offense, or the spread option offense. Same formation, but very difficult to stop. (yes I know it's college football, but the concept is what matters)

 

We can't overthink ourselves. I hope Turk and Dick prove me wrong this season, but my hope is at an all time low.

 

Some of the problems with people not aligning with the play was due to the play call coming in late....Sometimes that 10 extra seconds can make a big difference especially for a young player...

[ganesh]

Evans was open alot, trent was either to scared or his arm too weak to get him the ball

 

Open a lot after 10 seconds does not do any good....

[BillsVet]

If you read what Cris Collinsworth has to say about Turk Schonert,his golfing buddy, He is not one to lack confidence almost to a fault. Its my take that he wanted to build a high powered passing offense and it simply didn't work,although it wasn't for lack of trying,constant throwing instead of running the ball.

 

The Bills were a total passing team for most of the season, it wasn't until the Cleveland game that Schonert started using play action passing regularly. The Bills were in constant shotgun formations throughout the season.

 

I'm really not sure why anyone had faith in Schonert to create a good offense. First, four franchises hadn't seen fit to promote him to OC. It should not have come as any surprise when he had no answers for 3-4 defenses when it mattered most. TS' game plans changed dramatically after the Arizona loss, and I think DJ controls the offense more than we realize. Schonert's talk in the preseason about getting Evans involved was BS.

 

The reason this team first used PA against Cleveland was the fact the Browns dropped 6+ into coverage and rushed no more than 3. I had read that Buffalo was afraid to run PA and allow their QB to turn his back to the LOS. No doubt having pushovers Preston and Fowler at center made this necessary.

 

Schonert is no more than a QB coach who was elevated to a coordinator position when the HC had few options. I think his offenses are tailored to what DJ wants: ball control and a short to medium passing game. Trent had issues with his confidence going down field, particularly against Cleveland, but who was there to get him going again?