The Dean Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 McCargo sucks, was a complete bust... and the fact that you grade this pick with anything better than an F is indicative of your lack of objectivity. This exercise is by its very nature a SUBJECTIVE one. At least I try to consider the context, look at the positives and the negatives, and give my reasons, for an evaluation. When he saw the field, he showed flashes of real talent, at times. As I said, even w/o the injuries, I can't see him being better than a C. I will agree his contribution, due to his injuries, was near F-level. But, I have to tell you, I have only had to have an "argument" about "D vs. F" a couple of times in my life, and they were with two of the dumbest students I ever taught. What idiot takes any real time to battle about how crappy a crappy grade is? You'd think an intelligent human would have better things to think about. If you insist on the F, I have no issue with that. As I already wrote off McCargo as the bust (washout) of the draft, it has no impact on my final grade for the draft. Whitner is not spectacular. He's not a liability either, but falls somewhere in the middle of the pack. And when you're the eighth overall pick, being pushed over to FS after your third season doesn't qualify as being a standout. Is Whitner being "pushed over to FS"? Do we have verification on that? I think it is likely that Whitner was moved (as he has been his entire career) to compensate for other issues (injuries, schemes, etc) on the defense. I think the move toward the end of the year was based on Scott's ability to play SS close to the line (but not versatile enough to play FS, or in deep coverage) and Whitner's reduced effectiveness after the injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 Is Whitner being "pushed over to FS"? Do we have verification on that? I think it is likely that Whitner was moved (as he has been his entire career) to compensate for other issues (injuries, schemes, etc) on the defense. I think the move toward the end of the year was based on Scott's ability to play SS close to the line (but not versatile enough to play FS, or in deep coverage) and Whitner's reduced effectiveness after the injury. The thing is, I know Buffalo wanted to throw more size closer to the LOS. That's not a disparaging comment toward Whitner, but IMO, they looked at a Whitner/Scott pairing as better than a Simpson/Whitner tandem. It was obvious they wanted this against better TE's, namely Antonio Gates. Scott isn't all-world, but he's probably better in the box than Whitner. And if they can get Simpson off the field, it's a no brainer. Ko is clearly not starting caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 This exercise is by its very nature a SUBJECTIVE one. At least I try to consider the context, look at the positives and the negatives, and give my reasons, for an evaluation. When he saw the field, he showed flashes of real talent, at times. As I said, even w/o the injuries, I can't see him being better than a C. I will agree his contribution, due to his injuries, was near F-level. The point is not so much the grade itself as it is the wishy washy justifications you use to bring out supposed "positives" in McCargo's play. The organization wasted a high 2nd and a high 3rd on him and have nothing to show for it. He has been buried in the depth chart and unlike Youboty, McCargo's problems run far deeper than unfortunate injuries. There were significant issues with his work ethic, motivation, and practice habits. Naturally, the coaching staff lost faith in him early on and had to fine him for showing up out of shape. Adding "context" to these types of picks is for the Matt Millens of the world. I suppose WR Mike Williams and QB Joey Harrington showed "flashes" because they have 2 arms and 2 legs... but that doesn't count for much on Sundays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipers Hair Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Gee, I don't think we've ever talked about this draft here. Good post. Your missing the point - the fact is the "experts" say you need 3 full seasons to grade...time to grade. I agree with the poster except Whitner - I think it is closer to a D+ given the expectations and where taken.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfreak Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Excellent post and good research. I don't have a real problem with any of your grades, just a few minor tweaks that I would make: Whitner, he gets a bad rap. Tough to play safety in coverage when you have hardly no pass rush and have to spend as much time making tackles on running plays, because the runner almost always gets passed the first 5-6 yards untouched. As far as his playoff guarantee, I will never hold it against a player for showing confidence in himself and his team. He shows leadership that is all to absent on this team. McCargo-when you combined what he has produced and what the organization gave up to draft him at a time when they needed all the picks they could get-a bust similar to that of Erik Flowers (remember him?) Kyle Williams-for a 5th round pick, we got way more value than you can expect at this point of the draft. Keith Ellison-as you stated, too small for full time linebacker play. Could be driving force of special teams. The ultimate over achiever, always plays hard and gives his best, sometimes with his lack in stature-that is not enough. Overall the 2006 draft in a few years will be dwarfed by the results of the 2007 draft with Lynch, Edwards, Posluzny and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavarreFL_Bills_Fan Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 1B. John McCargo. DT North Caroline State (26th overall) McCargo injured his foot after a handful of games in 2006 and was IR'd. Returned in 07, though did not start any games, and went on to collect 2.5 sacks and make a few good plays. Began 2008 as a backup DT and had little impact. IR'd late in the season. Bills traded a 2nd and 3rd to Chicago for the chance to move up and get him. Those picks were sorely needed as the Bills rebuilt after TD's era. Early in 2008, DL Coach Bill Kollar questioned his work ethic, and McCargo was again relegated to backup status. Bills attempted to trade the underachieving DT, but McCargo did not pass a physical. Thereafter, he was IR'd again in 2008. He will not return in 2009, and should be considered a bust. Grade: F Totally Agree...not only does the lack of production contribute to this grade, but the fact that the Bills gave up 2nd and 3rd rounders is amazing. F is about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChevyVanMiller Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 4. Ko Simpson. S South Carolina (105th overall) Simpson took over for an injured Troy Vincent early in 2006 and played in all 16 games, starting 15. 2 INT's and 1 FF in his rookie season. His 2007 season ended with a broken foot during the first game of the year. Simpson returned in 2008, but lost his job when Whitner moved to FS and Bryan Scott took over at SS. Simpson's ball skills are underwhelming. He has not replicated his play from 2006 and is often very late arriving in coverage. Arrested recently and his future is in serious doubt. Reportedly, "worth millions." Now that's funny, right there. I don't care who you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Place where the player was drafted. It's absurd to apply the same expectations to a 1st rounder as you would a 7th rounder. Given that we agree on that, can you explain how Whitner gets the same grade as Ellison & Simpson? Hell, even Youboty made multiple huge 3rd down open field tackles in Jacksonville and in doing so played a larger role than Whitner ever has in any win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 The point is not so much the grade itself as it is the wishy washy justifications you use to bring out supposed "positives" in McCargo's play. The organization wasted a high 2nd and a high 3rd on him and have nothing to show for it. He has been buried in the depth chart and unlike Youboty, McCargo's problems run far deeper than unfortunate injuries. There were significant issues with his work ethic, motivation, and practice habits. Naturally, the coaching staff lost faith in him early on and had to fine him for showing up out of shape. Adding "context" to these types of picks is for the Matt Millens of the world. I suppose WR Mike Williams and QB Joey Harrington showed "flashes" because they have 2 arms and 2 legs... but that doesn't count for much on Sundays. McCargo was hurt when drafted- which makes it even more idiotic to waste 2 high picks on a player with bad feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 Simpson's ball skills are underwhelming. He has not replicated his play from 2006 and is often very late arriving in coverage. Arrested recently and his future is in serious doubt. Reportedly, "worth millions." Now that's funny, right there. I don't care who you are. With this organization, you've gotta laugh sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 BV, thank you for another superior post/thread. Having been here for many years, I must say that you add a tremendous amount to this board. I am not going to rate the individuals that were selected in 06 other than Butler, who was a tremendous pick (10th pick of round 5) at his slot. The extension he signed was not out of line in terms of cost. This is not to say he is great, but he was a great pick imo. I make the case that if Whitner was as good as Ronnie Lott and Youboty was as good as mel Blount, the draft would have sucked........for THIS team. Their skills, even if tremendous, would be rendered all but useless due to our flat out horrible front 7. Couple this with the fact that we play in the cold and passing matters less than in many other places, it is clear to me that the draft was based on senility and a lack of fundamental knowledge on how to construct a winning football team in Buffalo. Ineptitude, thy names are Levy and Jauron. The fanbase is so loyal that most of us not only put up with such idiocy, we condoned it. But, I think this is changing. When your #8 draft selection is being bowled over by Earl Campbell, that's one thing. When he is being flattened by Sammy Morris, that is something else indeed. Unobstructed runners will trample most dbs. Receivers with 10 seconds to roam due to no pass rush will get open. If this board is any indication, fans are waking up to this. Where does this leave us? It's clear to me. Either Dick Levy will draft players and sign free agents to make us a strong, cold weather team, or he will continue down his path of our destruction as a franchise. If I had to guess, I am thinking that at this point, we are all but finished. Dick Levy hammered the nails in the coffin of this franchise. That said, I'm in until the doors are locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Ineptitude, thy names are Levy and Jauron. The fanbase is so loyal that most of us not only put up with such idiocy, we condoned it. But, I think this is changing. When your #8 draft selection is being bowled over by Earl Campbell, that's one thing. When he is being flattened by Sammy Morris, that is something else indeed. Unobstructed runners will trample most dbs. Receivers with 10 seconds to roam due to no pass rush will get open. If this board is any indication, fans are waking up to this. Can't see how you conclude fans are waking up to the ineptness of the clown show at OBD when they are hellbent on running Jason Peters out of town based on the propaganda spun by Russ Brandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 BV, thank you for another superior post/thread. Having been here for many years, I must say that you add a tremendous amount to this board. Thanks Bill. In another thread, someone posted about what is this team's vision. It's not to be confused with a short term goal, but where this team is headed. I personally do not believe this team has a vision of their future. Every year, the Bills go into the offseason with so many needs. This coming year is no different, but that doesn't have to be the case. Buffalo lacks no less than (in no particular order) a pass-rusher, center, outside LB, tight end, safety depth, backup QB, and linebacker depth over 240 lbs. Luxuries might be a RT, OL depth, and a DT. Either way, the Bills aren't closer to a playoff berth than they were before 2006 when Levy/Jauron arrived. I'd argue they're worse, given strength of schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Can't see how you conclude fans are waking up to the ineptness of the clown show at OBD when they are hellbent on running Jason Peters out of town based on the propaganda spun by Russ Brandon. That is a great point, one to which I cannot think of a credible answer. Maybe someone can help me out here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 That is a great point, one to which I cannot think of a credible answer. Maybe someone can help me out here. Well, in fairness, I'm not sure how you can blame Brandon's "propaganda machine". Peters' actions pretty much spoke for themselves. There is no excuse for missing regular season games due to a hold out. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't even talk to peters unless he showed up for OTA's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 F- Outside of Whitner, they were all wasted picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Well, in fairness, I'm not sure how you can blame Brandon's "propaganda machine". Peters' actions pretty much spoke for themselves. There is no excuse for missing regular season games due to a hold out. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't even talk to peters unless he showed up for OTA's. Peters didn't hold out of any regular season games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Peters didn't hold out of any regular season games. OK, technically he didn't but his hold out caused him to miss games. I'm not saying trade the guy, quite the contrary, but I don't see how anyone can condone how he handled the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 OK, technically he didn't but his hold out caused him to miss games. I'm not saying trade the guy, quite the contrary, but I don't see how anyone can condone how he handled the situation. You were correct in your initial assessment. Peters hold out cost him to miss regular season games. You don't just show up, the night before the season starts, say "I'm here!" and start playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Well, in fairness, I'm not sure how you can blame Brandon's "propaganda machine". Peters' actions pretty much spoke for themselves. There is no excuse for missing regular season games due to a hold out. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't even talk to peters unless he showed up for OTA's. For any fan with half a brain to believe the spin that OBD knew nothing of what Peters wanted is absurd and a direct result of the propaganda generated by Brandon. a real GM would have dealt with his best player and not created the circus that surrounded the team the entire off-season. Brandon has already started this year's smear campaign so expect another holdout and circus in 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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