Solomon Grundy Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Trent Edwards could be the next modern day Joe Montana in my opinion, the question is can we give him the supporting cast Montana had during his years with the 49ers. I tend to agree with Dog. Here is a young QB that has more come from behind victories so far than other QB's that's been in the league for years. He acheived this accomplishment despite poor coaching, 2 capable WR's(Josh Reed/Lee Evans) and no TE at all. He is tougher than most Wallers give him credit for and as far as cold weather games he was as good if not better than the opposng teams QB this year. Get this guy a tight end that doesn't drop 70% of the balls he throws him and you will see why Bill Walsh raved about him. Forget Gresham, get CHASE COFFMAN. We don't need him to block, we need him not to drop a pass, something Coffman doesn't do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I've been saying this for a while... A WC offensive scheme would suit Edwards best. Using a conservative, run-oriented version of it along with a more aggressive style defense similar to Lebeau's blitz schemes could do wonders for this team, although at this point, I don't believe this team is completely built for those schemes... A guy like Shanahan would have been the perfect WC guy for Trent Edwards... but we would have had to go through another rebuilding transition to mold the zone-blocking OL Shanahan likes among other personnel changes... and it may have taken time. But the team would have moved forward instead of staying in neutral... which is where we'll be for a while. And of course, Wilson would have had to shell out extra cash... God forbid... Its tragic because I believe Edwards would be on the cusp of greatness in the right WC offense... Too bad Ralph didn't take a chance like this, because he's gonna lose even more of that precious money he likes to conserve losing season ticket holders... and then the sphincter will pucker up so tight, he really will turn Buffalo into his home town... GO LIONS!!! I think Shanny might have done wonders for JP, but not Edwards. Edwards doesn't have the physical tools, or the mentality for Shanahan offense, IMO. By mentality, I don't mean intelligence...Edwards has that (I think), but Shanahan wants a guy with a gun, who will use it. That simply isn't Trent, who will opt for the safe outlet almost every time. Also, I'm not sure Denver-style run blocking suits this offensive line...but, I admit that isn't my strong suit when it comes to football analysis. If I were the Bills, I would use a variation of the offense used by the Steelers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Does ANYONE think Trent will play all 16 games in 09 ( there will be NO PLAYOFFS for the Bills)? I sure don't & to me that equates to INJURY PRONE. How many QBs were healthy enough to start every game, this year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenigmusx Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 The Aaron Schobel injury exposed Buffalo's lack of depth at the DE position, with Schobels return and a good FA pickup/draft, the defense could be real good in my opinion. The other injuries that really stung and are forgotten are Angelo Crowell and John Digorgio. Our linebacking core was missing a second pass rush threat and the put undue pressure on Mitchell. Crowell and Schobel alone would have created a great deal more pressure and disruptions. We need a space eater next to Stroud and a fast End and our "D" will doninate. I don't love Jauron but next year we will be really good . Unless we are devastated by injury. We will draft: DE round 1 (fast attacking Bruce Smith style) Round 2 TE (Big and fast) Round 3 2 picks (Ko Simpson trade) 3rd a. DT bigest guy we can find 3rd b. OLB fast and 260 ish (like Wrabel) 4th QB other assorted whatever talent is there Center will be addresed through Free agency offer a big contract to Matt Birk from the Vikings. Pay back for Pat Williams baby. Hardy will be good next year provided he heals well. Steve Johnson will be a great possession guy but Hardy will be our Moss type. The guy is good but he is a slow developer. He was uncoverable in college trust me. Next year is a 12-4 season. No I am not smoking anything good wine takes time to mature and we are still one of the youngest teams in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 The other injuries that really stung and are forgotten are Angelo Crowell and John Digorgio. Our linebacking core was missing a second pass rush threat and the put undue pressure on Mitchell. Crowell and Schobel alone would have created a great deal more pressure and disruptions. We need a space eater next to Stroud and a fast End and our "D" will doninate. I don't love Jauron but next year we will be really good . Unless we are devastated by injury. We will draft: DE round 1 (fast attacking Bruce Smith style) Round 2 TE (Big and fast) Round 3 2 picks (Ko Simpson trade) 3rd a. DT bigest guy we can find 3rd b. OLB fast and 260 ish (like Wrabel) 4th QB other assorted whatever talent is there Center will be addresed through Free agency offer a big contract to Matt Birk from the Vikings. Pay back for Pat Williams baby. Hardy will be good next year provided he heals well. Steve Johnson will be a great possession guy but Hardy will be our Moss type. The guy is good but he is a slow developer. He was uncoverable in college trust me. Next year is a 12-4 season. No I am not smoking anything good wine takes time to mature and we are still one of the youngest teams in the league. good post Your right, the Crowell and Digorgio injuries also hurt us allot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 How many QBs were healthy enough to start every game, this year? He only cares about 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 He only cares about 1. I don't think he cares about anything, to tell the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted January 1, 2009 Author Share Posted January 1, 2009 In the interest of real estate I have cut a good bit of the Dean's verbiage out - anyone reading the end part of this thread should go back because the Dean makes a great points here. Marvin Harrison My only counter is to simply say Marvin had the advantage of a good number of weapons around him. Lee Evans does not yet. I don't think the Bills have a traditional #2 WR and it would be great to see them get one. But, I don't think it is an absolute necessity, as they can use a different approach and have multiple very good options as the #'s 2-4 WRs. I guess my point continues to be, the coaches are not playing to the strengths of the team. Absolutely correct. Only clarification that I would add is that when the strengths were on display Schonert became stupid and went a different direction in his play calling. It begs the question why? Finally, for now, I think this team should be using multiple formations, and mixing the pace...while still running, essentially, a smash mouth offense. The Bills run at a very predictable pace and show no real sense of urgency. Absolutely correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dean Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Absolutely correct. Only clarification that I would add is that when the strengths were on display Schonert became stupid and went a different direction in his play calling. It begs the question why? Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 This injury prone label is unfair considering the way TE gives up his body trying to help the team. Our Mike Martz/Steve Fairchild/Turk Shonert mess we call an offense is directly responsible for TE's injuries. You guys are probably sick of hearing the same thing from me, but its true. The 49ers, Rams, and Bills all suffered the same fate this year, the 49ers lead the league in having their QB sacked and is one of the reasons why Mike Martz is looking for a job right now. Injuries can happen at anytime but by bringing in a variation of the WC offense, TE wouldn't have a problem staying healthy in my opinion. I'm kinda sick of hearing it because it's simply NOT true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I'm kinda sick of hearing it because it's simply NOT true. Yet you offer zero by way of argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Yet you offer zero by way of argument. We already went through this yesterday, but here goes again: Yes, Martz's 49ers QBs were most sacked in the league (55 times). Maybe that's scheme and maybe that's personnel, but more likely some combination of the two. The Rams were 6th in the league in sacks allowed with 45. The Bills - 10th with 38 sacks allowed. Once again - TE was only sacked 23 times in 14 games, roughly half as many times as the league leaders went down. How did the Pats and Steelers win so many games with their QBs getting hit so much? What common fate did the 49ers, Bills and Rams suffer this year as a result of the Mike Martz offense? Missing the playoffs is the only link, but I think that's more a result of being poorly coached and/or talent-thin teams, not simply because of the offense they run. Going one step further - only one of the top 12 teams in terms of sacks allowed made the playoffs. Could it simply be that bad teams miss the playoffs and part of the reason they do is they allow more sacks than the rest of the league (because they have inferior offensive lines and/or are playing from behind, necessitating they throw more)? And again, Mike Martz is looking for a job because he wants to run the wide-open passing game and Singletary wants to run the ball more and play a little more conservative. And he's an egotistical jackass who cares more about rankings, stats, points and yards, not winning. So I flip it around on you - what proof do you have that the "Mike Martz offense" is the reason that TE is injury prone? What about when he was at Stanford? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 We already went through this yesterday, but here goes again: Yes, Martz's 49ers QBs were most sacked in the league (55 times). Maybe that's scheme and maybe that's personnel, but more likely some combination of the two. The Rams were 6th in the league in sacks allowed with 45. The Bills - 10th with 38 sacks allowed. Once again - TE was only sacked 23 times in 14 games, roughly half as many times as the league leaders went down. How did the Pats and Steelers win so many games with their QBs getting hit so much? What common fate did the 49ers, Bills and Rams suffer this year as a result of the Mike Martz offense? Missing the playoffs is the only link, but I think that's more a result of being poorly coached and/or talent-thin teams, not simply because of the offense they run. Going one step further - only one of the top 12 teams in terms of sacks allowed made the playoffs. Could it simply be that bad teams miss the playoffs and part of the reason they do is they allow more sacks than the rest of the league (because they have inferior offensive lines and/or are playing from behind, necessitating they throw more)? And again, Mike Martz is looking for a job because he wants to run the wide-open passing game and Singletary wants to run the ball more and play a little more conservative. And he's an egotistical jackass who cares more about rankings, stats, points and yards, not winning. So I flip it around on you - what proof do you have that the "Mike Martz offense" is the reason that TE is injury prone? What about when he was at Stanford? Stanford was plain and simply put, a poor supporting cast around him. I told you why, anywhere the offense is being used the QB is taking a beating and thats only one of the problems. Longer passing routes take longer to develop and defenses have learned to take away the big play and it stalls the offense. A Mike martz offense gets your QB flushed out of the pocket repeatedily, hurried up, hit as he throws and knocked down or worse case scenerio, sacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Stanford was plain and simply put, a poor supporting cast around him. I told you why, anywhere the offense is being used the QB is taking a beating and thats only one of the problems. Longer passing routes take longer to develop and defenses have learned to take away the big play and it stalls the offense. A Mike martz offense gets your QB flushed out of the pocket repeatedily, hurried up, hit as he throws and knocked down or worse case scenerio, sacked. Once again you're reaching a conclusion that the facts don't necessarily support. You can't say that the system Turk is running here and what the Rams are running now are the exact same systems that Martz ran in St Louis and this year in SF. (I also find it hard to believe that three years after Martz was fired from the Rams they are still running his offense.) And you're completely disregarding the fact that all three teams were bad teams this year - meaning more throwing (playing catchup) and likely worse personnel, specifically on the offensive line. Yes, TE was surrounded by poor talent in Stanford, and he took a beating. But he still has not completed a season since HS, IIRC, and that says injury prone, not "blame the system." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Once again you're reaching a conclusion that the facts don't necessarily support. You can't say that the system Turk is running here and what the Rams are running now are the exact same systems that Martz ran in St Louis and this year in SF. (I also find it hard to believe that three years after Martz was fired from the Rams they are still running his offense.) And you're completely disregarding the fact that all three teams were bad teams this year - meaning more throwing (playing catchup) and likely worse personnel, specifically on the offensive line. Yes, TE was surrounded by poor talent in Stanford, and he took a beating. But he still has not completed a season since HS, IIRC, and that says injury prone, not "blame the system." Some QB's get injured easier then others I can't argue with that, but the team and system a QB plays in along with the supporting cast around him and the defenses he faces on a weekly basis has allot to do with the injury situation. When compared to say a Brett Favre, TE is more injury prone ,but I think we can better gauge something like that after TE has had a chance to mature and develop. Conditioning himself and realizing how improtant it is, is just one of the many reasons I billieve TE is a future HOF QB. TE's a goal oriented perfectionist who is not afraid of hard work along with some bumps and bruises to get him where he wants to be, which is to be one of the best QB's in the NFL. More importantly, TE is "the team comes first" kinda guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Búfalo Blanco Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I think Shanny might have done wonders for JP, but not Edwards. Edwards doesn't have the physical tools, or the mentality for Shanahan offense, IMO. By mentality, I don't mean intelligence...Edwards has that (I think), but Shanahan wants a guy with a gun, who will use it. That simply isn't Trent, who will opt for the safe outlet almost every time. Also, I'm not sure Denver-style run blocking suits this offensive line...but, I admit that isn't my strong suit when it comes to football analysis. If I were the Bills, I would use a variation of the offense used by the Steelers. The great thing about the WC offense is that you can mold the scheme around your QB's strengths.... I believe Shanahan could have adjusted to Trent's strengths while greatly improving our ground game. Not that our ground game is horrible, but there would be much more emphasis since Shanahan has always used it to his advantage correctly and setting up the pass through a zone running scheme... You are correct that the zone-blocking scheme does not suit our current OL and I said as much in the last post... We would have to completely rebuild it. But I believe the WC offense is the correct scheme for Trent Edwards... Perhaps Shanny is not the most perfect WC mind for Edwards, although as I said, the scheme is made to adjust to a particular QB... But Shanny would be a huge upgrade over what we have and, again, make our rushing game unstoppable... Actually a guy in the mold of John Gruden might be the best WC scheme fit for Edwards... He made guys like Gannon and B. Johnson incredibly acurate in his scheme... and they never had what you might consider an Elway arm. In fact, I thought a couple of Gannon's seasons during the Gruden era were the best I'd ever seen ... and a lot of that was short range and dump-off passes that Edwards would excel at... But this is all a pipe dream at this point anyway... There would need to be changes at certain positions, and I'm not sure Lee Evans would benefit from a short range passing game. He's locked up now for a while... I just felt that since we're talking about the pros/cons of Trent, the West Coast Offense could really bring out his talent. Unfortunately, we may never see that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Some QB's get injured easier then others I can't argue with that, but the team and system a QB plays in along with the supporting cast around him and the defenses he faces on a weekly basis has allot to do with the injury situation. When compared to say a Brett Favre, TE is more injury prone ,but I think we can better gauge something like that after TE has had a chance to mature and develop. Conditioning himself and realizing how improtant it is, is just one of the many reasons I billieve TE is a future HOF QB. TE's a goal oriented perfectionist who is not afraid of hard work along with some bumps and bruises to get him where he wants to be, which is to be one of the best QB's in the NFL. More importantly, TE is "the team comes first" kinda guy. Of course the number of hits a player takes and the talent surrounding him makes a difference, and in that respect the "system" can contribute to injuries. You wouldn't want Bledsoe running naked bootlegs (you hear that, Killdrive?) but again, Trent was only sacked 23 times this year. Some guys are injury prone, no matter what they do. And now that Trent has a concussion history we should be very concerned about his health. On your second paragraph - I don't even know where to start. That sounds like a press release from his agent. It's Pollyanna fanspeak, nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted January 1, 2009 Author Share Posted January 1, 2009 We already went through this yesterday, but here goes again: Yes, Martz's 49ers QBs were most sacked in the league (55 times). Maybe that's scheme and maybe that's personnel, but more likely some combination of the two. The Rams were 6th in the league in sacks allowed with 45. The Bills - 10th with 38 sacks allowed. Once again - TE was only sacked 23 times in 14 games, roughly half as many times as the league leaders went down. How did the Pats and Steelers win so many games with their QBs getting hit so much? What common fate did the 49ers, Bills and Rams suffer this year as a result of the Mike Martz offense? Missing the playoffs is the only link, but I think that's more a result of being poorly coached and/or talent-thin teams, not simply because of the offense they run. Going one step further - only one of the top 12 teams in terms of sacks allowed made the playoffs. Could it simply be that bad teams miss the playoffs and part of the reason they do is they allow more sacks than the rest of the league (because they have inferior offensive lines and/or are playing from behind, necessitating they throw more)? And again, Mike Martz is looking for a job because he wants to run the wide-open passing game and Singletary wants to run the ball more and play a little more conservative. And he's an egotistical jackass who cares more about rankings, stats, points and yards, not winning. So I flip it around on you - what proof do you have that the "Mike Martz offense" is the reason that TE is injury prone? What about when he was at Stanford? I agree Martz is too pass happy. The conditions in Buffalo dictate that the team has a very solid running game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmwolf21 Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 I agree Martz is too pass happy. The conditions in Buffalo dictate that the team has a very solid running game. Absolutely, and that was what we kicked around yesterday in another thread. Bottom line is we are a cold-weather franchise in a mostly cold-weather division, and yet we are built and prepare like a dome team or a southern division team. We need to be a ball-control running team with a strong defense. I think Trent would be very good in that kind of system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 1, 2009 Share Posted January 1, 2009 Absolutely, and that was what we kicked around yesterday in another thread. Bottom line is we are a cold-weather franchise in a mostly cold-weather division, and yet we are built and prepare like a dome team or a southern division team. We need to be a ball-control running team with a strong defense. I think Trent would be very good in that kind of system. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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