erynthered Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 clearly part of the demise of the american auto industry can be traced to product costs, but disinvestment in small, fuel-efficient cars certainly played a big part as well You'd have to look it up, but I believe the avarage built in cost for every new car built by Ford or GM is about $2000.00 per car per retired union worker. Do the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 clearly part of the demise of the american auto industry can be traced to product costs, but disinvestment in small, fuel-efficient cars certainly played a big part as well How many small fuel efficient BMWs, Mercedes, Toyotas and Hondas do you really see? With all those makers you get much more bang for your buck that you do with American cars. Labor cost is killing them and they will all be gone soon. Ford's stock is at $2.50 and Gm is at $6.50. That's just sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 You'd have to look it up, but I believe the avarage built in cost for every new car built by Ford or GM is about $2000.00 per car per retired union worker. Do the math. Dude look at the contracts that BOTH sides signed. What do those contracts cover?? Pensions and Healthcare... wait a minute? hasn't the cost of healthcare gone up a ton in the past 10 years? Just one part that adds into the equation. Just pointing out the fact that it's not simply the unions fault as you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 You'd have to look it up, but I believe the avarage built in cost for every new car built by Ford or GM is about $2000.00 per car per retired union worker. Do the math. last I heard, it was $1500, and I acknowledge that as a big chunk of sunk "product cost", but the problem goes way beyond union contracts. A big part of their demise involved making conscious choices to design and build SUVs and pickup trucks vs focusing on fuel efficient cars, which has put them years behind other global auto manufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 last I heard, it was $1500, and I acknowledge that as a big chunk of sunk "product cost", but the problem goes way beyond union contracts. A big part of their demise involved making conscious choices to design and build SUVs and pickup trucks vs focusing on fuel efficient cars, which has put them years behind other global auto manufacturers. I would agree with this.. also the fact that when they announce a new concept car it takes way to long for them to roll through production. Not a huge fan of the design process before. Glad to see that is changing up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Dude look at the contracts that BOTH sides signed. What do those contracts cover?? Pensions and Healthcare... wait a minute? hasn't the cost of healthcare gone up a ton in the past 10 years? Just one part that adds into the equation. Just pointing out the fact that it's not simply the unions fault as you say. I have many friends that have worked at the Ford plant in Hamburg for over 25 years. One of them was making 25 hours sweeping floors. Time and half, holiday time? Yeah, that's cost effective. Though you make a point. Any of those rising union costs and health care cost Ford and GM had to incur were passed along to the consumer. The Car and Truck buyer. Who TF do you think is going to pay for this windfall profits tax Obama wants to implement, huh?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 It's a good thing that the SCOTUS turned down the GOP's attempt to overturn a lower court’s order requiring state officials in Ohio to supply information that would have made it easier to challenge prospective voters. Joe the Plumber would have had his vote put aside, ruled provisional, scrutinized and maybe disallowed. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/uselection...ctions2008-ohio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 last I heard, it was $1500, and I acknowledge that as a big chunk of sunk "product cost", but the problem goes way beyond union contracts. A big part of their demise involved making conscious choices to design and build SUVs and pickup trucks vs focusing on fuel efficient cars, which has put them years behind other global auto manufacturers. Yes that true. Profits for their shareholders. Now they have to answer for it. A big part of the solution will be rollbacks on pay. Good luck with that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 The Union has already given up so much in the form of concessions. How much more should they give up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 He's not a licensed plumber, nor is he registered as a plumber in Ohio. Oh, we're back to Joe again. The middle-class guy the left keeps fighting for until he suddenly fights back. Sorry, I thought we were talking about me hiring a non-union plumber. But how come I can't pick my plumber without making sure he or she belongs to a special group, but the left gets to pick the middle class people they want to help? Joe is clearly middle class, and yet now he's a scumbag. So I'm guessing the left doesn't want to help Joe. Just a special group of middle class people who stay in lock step with the left's way of thinking? So, there is to be no free thinking or free actions. You must stick to the group, and if you don't, you'll wake up a scumbag with Keith Olberman going through your trash. And for the record, I'm just curious. If every time we have a discussion where we don't agree on something, are you going to just keep bringing up the plumber in hopes that I suddenly forget what we're talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 How many small fuel efficient BMWs, Mercedes, Toyotas and Hondas do you really see? With all those makers you get much more bang for your buck that you do with American cars. Labor cost is killing them and they will all be gone soon. Ford's stock is at $2.50 and Gm is at $6.50. That's just sad. no and yes... Mercedes has spent megabucks on diesel technology development and it's gonna pay off in spades with excellent power/mileage ratios in the years to come. Toyota and Honda, come on! Up and down their lines are incredible showcases of fuel efficiency and in many cases, luxury and handling, in the same package. Yes, they pay their workers well and have kept unions at bay, of course, no argument there. I'm saying GM and Ford went for short term profits vs long term investments and will pay for those mistakes, while saddled with high labor costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 The Union has already given up so much in the form of concessions. How much more should they give up? You're the one so big on Labor. You tell me. Ford and GM will close their doors if the unions dont do something drastic. You want that kind of unemployment in the Northeast pDiddy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Oh, we're back to Joe again. The middle-class guy the left keeps fighting for until he suddenly fights back. Sorry, I thought we were talking about me hiring a non-union plumber. But how come I can't pick my plumber without making sure he or she belongs to a special group, but the left gets to pick the middle class people they want to help? Joe is clearly middle class, and yet now he's a scumbag. So I'm guessing the left doesn't want to help Joe. Just a special group of middle class people who stay in lock step with the left's way of thinking? So, there is to be no free thinking or free actions. You must stick to the group, and if you don't, you'll wake up a scumbag with Keith Olberman going through your trash. And for the record, I'm just curious. If every time we have a discussion where we don't agree on something, are you going to just keep bringing up the plumber in hopes that I suddenly forget what we're talking about? Try non-licensed plumber. Not non-union, although that would be true if he didn't have a license. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 You don't abandon a problem/project because it's not going perfectly. You find a way to fix it. Programs that help the less fortunate in a free-market system with minor regulation are needed. That's reality, because if you don't administer some type of relief for those people you will have bigger, more costly problems. You keep the ones that work, you fix the less efficient ones. You clearly disagree. If you're trying to find a way to fix the problem do you focus on the problem or is the tool to fix it more important? If you are trying to fix the problem knowing you are using the wrong tool, do you keep buying more of the same type of tool? Do you tell the problem to just be satisfied with the solution your tool provides? Or would you examine the problem and consider using new tools? The Federal government (and the left) has deemed that the Federal government is the only tool that can be used. The problems are not going to be fixed that way any more than you can cure cancer by continually hitting cancer cells with a hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 You're the one so big on Labor. You tell me. Ford and GM will close their doors if the unions dont do something drastic. You want that kind of unemployment in the Northeast pDiddy? No one wants unemployment just as much as no one wants to lose their benefits. I guess people cutting their benefits in half, losing most of their pensions and already cutting the salaries for many isn't drastic enough. If that was you, would you want to give up more? How about looking to the management that gets paid the big bucks to run the company to fix the company. Labor has given up a lot. I know this for a fact. The one thing I will blame on these workers is that many of them do not buy their own product and have not for years. Just dumb. Personally I buy nothing but GM vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 No one wants unemployment just as much as no one wants to lose their benefits. I guess people cutting their benefits in half, losing most of their pensions and already cutting the salaries for many isn't drastic enough. If that was you, would you want to give up more? How about looking to the management that gets paid the big bucks to run the company to fix the company. Labor has given up a lot. I know this for a fact. The one thing I will blame on these workers is that many of them do not buy their own product and have not for years. Just dumb. Personally I buy nothing but GM vehicles. Which is just dumb... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 No one wants unemployment just as much as no one wants to lose their benefits. I guess people cutting their benefits in half, losing most of their pensions and already cutting the salaries for many isn't drastic enough. If that was you, would you want to give up more? How about looking to the management that gets paid the big bucks to run the company to fix the company. Labor has given up a lot. I know this for a fact. The one thing I will blame on these workers is that many of them do not buy their own product and have not for years. Just dumb. Personally I buy nothing but GM vehicles. Never again at their current quality for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pBills Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Which is just dumb... Yes, it's dumb to buy American? And for me, since both of my parents worked at a GM plant, it is completely dumb of me to support GM. Wow, what was I thinking. Actually going to pick up a new vehicle tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 No one wants unemployment just as much as no one wants to lose their benefits. I guess people cutting their benefits in half, losing most of their pensions and already cutting the salaries for many isn't drastic enough. If that was you, would you want to give up more? How about looking to the management that gets paid the big bucks to run the company to fix the company. Labor has given up a lot. I know this for a fact. The one thing I will blame on these workers is that many of them do not buy their own product and have not for years. Just dumb. Personally I buy nothing but GM vehicles. Thats bullshiit!! Let me say it again, I have friends AND family that work for Ford. They have not done what you are describing. There have been buyouts, where the employee has an option to pick two or three or four different plans or continue working. Its their choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Yes, it's dumb to buy American? And for me, since both of my parents worked at a GM plant, it is completely dumb of me to support GM. Wow, what was I thinking. Actually going to pick up a new vehicle tonight. You support them just because their American and your parents work there? The fact that their product is a piece of sh-- never enters into the equation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts