Chilly Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Well, first I would put nutrition before health care. Health care is important though. Sure, some can be healthy w/o ever seeing a doctor, while others will stay sick no matter what health care is provided. The masses though, will benefit from MORE & CHEAPER health care if we can provide it. With our current economy that seems unlikely. Pretty sure we don't substantially disagree there. More likely you just typed out the first thing that came to mind to slam Max. As to Max's point about it being disastrous financially as set up currently, aren't there an awful lot of defaults on those type of medical bills? In a way, that's true, but it has to be the right kind of health care. More & Cheaper health care isn't any good if it doesn't focus on preventative medicine and education, which need to become ingrained into society's habits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Lighten up. I just hate it when someone uses the same debate tactics they accused someone else of...in the same post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 I never said I was opposed to exploring feasible ways to make sure citizens have affordable healthcare. That's not what we're discussing. We're discussing creating a legal obligation for the government to provide healthcare to 300MM people. We're discussing exploring feasible ways to provide basic affordable healthcare as if was a basic right. Same for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Either you agree with that or you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Sounds like a statement made to counter Biden's "Let's revalue the principal of everyone's mortgage" bloviating last week...about as stupid and ill-considered. I can see more ways to make McCain's statement (I resist calling it a "plan") work, but fewer risks to the taxpayer in Biden's. Mostly, though, I just find myself asking "Does anyone in government know anything about the economy?" Buncha morons... Thanks for the info. That's exactly how I took it - seemed like a way for McCain to incorporate what Biden said without making it seem quite as loony. I bet that got some play in focus groups, so McCain wanted to implement it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Right to happiness, but you don't have to be. The pursuit of happiness is a right...not happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Because they aren't. One can be healthy and not avail themselves of any health care. Conversely, one can have all the health care available in the world, and not be healthy. Your particular idiocy - that health means universal health care - is why the public health system in this country is such a mess. And yes, I'm sure part of your response will be along the lines of "Most people agree with me." Shared idiocy is still idiocy. Wow. You continually go to the same well of interjecting arguments that were never made then declaring victory. I thought you said you were smart, not simply lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 The pursuit of happiness is a right...not happiness. True enough. I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 In a way, that's true, but it has to be the right kind of health care. More & Cheaper health care isn't any good if it doesn't focus on preventative medicine and education, which need to become ingrained into society's habits. Exactly right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 The pursuit of happiness is a right...not happiness. I've come to the conclusion that Max has absolutely no idea what the word "right" means in this context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 I saw the second half of the debate. Cable was shut off in my neighborhood for a while and came on midway. Oh, well guess I didn't miss much. McCain seemed a little testy but much more aggressive and more relaxed. Overall, he did okay, but his voice is grinding in a much different way from George Bush. He tried to do the old Democrat is going to raise taxes routine, which I am not sure it went over that well. But in his closing he more directly acknowledge how things were right now economically. However, he was very unspecific in what he would do about, just what he would not do about it. Obama was very specific economically and while they took shots on each other on foreign policy, I have a hard time seeing where they really disagreed. Maybe McCain would Bomb first and then talk about it and Obama would talk first and then say FU, but it really amounts to much of the same. Interesting to watch the two styles work a room, but on substance on FP, not much difference. I do think McCain did a better job controlling the debate, but Obama wasn't a shrinking violet and handled himself well. McCain still seems to be disrespecting Obama, "this one" and his attempt at humor with trying to bring Brokaw in referring to not him as his choice for Treasury Secretary. Bottom line, not a great game changer, but for all the good McCain did being aggressive, he had enough of uncomfortable moments and small gaffe's that leave you with an uncomfortable feeling about McCain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 The pursuit of happiness is a right...not happiness. Interesting distinction, isn't it? I had an American Political Thought professor who spent a whole hour and a half talking about that distinction and why it was important. One of the points he made that I agree with was its important to never become truly happy - which delves into complacency. Such happiness ignores a great quote from Mencken, "Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 I've come to the conclusion that Max has absolutely no idea what the word "right" means in this context. I corrected myself. Like you care. I pretty sure that small thinking like yours has us in the situation were in. Do nothing. Good strategy. Let the budgets continue to explode and ignore the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 True enough. I stand corrected. See the founding fathers were very smart. Reason it's the pursuit of happiness is because that's what motivates people to be successful, it usually is accompanied by happiness. Also imagine all the cases clogging up the Supreme Court of people that are "just not all that happy." Monday mornings would be a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Well, first I would put nutrition before health care. Health care is important though. Sure, some can be healthy w/o ever seeing a doctor, while others will stay sick no matter what health care is provided. The masses though, will benefit from MORE & CHEAPER health care if we can provide it. With our current economy that seems unlikely. Pretty sure we don't substantially disagree there. More likely you just typed out the first thing that came to mind to slam Max. As to Max's point about it being disastrous financially as set up currently, aren't there an awful lot of defaults on those type of medical bills? Didn't say it wasn't important. Said it wasn't synonymous with health. And it isn't. The difference between health and health care is the difference between walking a mile a day versus taking Xenical. Until people realize that "universal health care" isn't synonymous with "public health" (the main reason I'm against universal health care is because it WILL take funds from true public health programs), and neither is synonymous with "health", the American health system will remain as screwed up as it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowLinesandArmadillos Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 See the founding fathers were very smart. Reason it's the pursuit of happiness is because that's what motivates people to be successful, it usually is accompanied by happiness. Also imagine all the cases clogging up the Supreme Court of people that are "just not all that happy." Monday mornings would be a mess. Which is why we need a right to health care.... more mood altering... excuse me.... stabilizing prescription drugs. Where is da big oxy boy when we need him for one of his patented McCain rocks, you suck, fu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Well, the CBS instant poll had Obama winning by 12 points, the CNN poll had him win by 24 points, the FOX focus group had him winning significantly (by about 2-1), the CBS focus group had him winning. I havent seen any group saying McCain won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Wow. You continually go to the same well of interjecting arguments that were never made then declaring victory. I thought you said you were smart, not simply lazy. You mean, the argument that health and health care are synonymous? That was your argument, buckwheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 In a way, that's true, but it has to be the right kind of health care. More & Cheaper health care isn't any good if it doesn't focus on preventative medicine and education, which need to become ingrained into society's habits. I would agree with that if you mean that we educate people on how to keep themselves healthy. Say explain that eating a lean cut of chicken that is blackened with it's own grease and pepper, a buttload of black beans, corn, and green beans (trying to go texas style) beats the hell out of a Big Mac and fries. That would be a start health wise. Adding some grapes for desert wouldn't hurt. Do some classes to explain this, it would probably be cheaper than the alternative. Redefine what food stamps can be spent on maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 See the founding fathers were very smart. Reason it's the pursuit of happiness is because that's what motivates people to be successful, it usually is accompanied by happiness. Also imagine all the cases clogging up the Supreme Court of people that are "just not all that happy." Monday mornings would be a mess. Agreed. There are some very important distinctions but what can't be ignored is what is best for the nation as a whole and defining what those rights mean. At one time, not too long ago, education was not considered a right. Yes, it costs untold billions now (and I'm sure many here can go on for thousands of posts of how it "sucks") but few Americans don't agree that basic education (K-12) shouldn't be a "right" and an excellent investment. Of course, not all take advantage but this nation was built on the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Well, the CBS instant poll had Obama winning by 12 points, the CNN poll had him win by 24 points, the FOX focus group had him winning significantly (by about 2-1), the CBS focus group had him winning. I havent seen any group saying McCain won. I think this group said he won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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