DrDawkinstein Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 There are 4 or 5 WRs coming out next year that would be rated higher than the players coming out in this year's draft. Micheal Crabtree (6'3 222), Percy Harvin (5'11 185), Jeremy Maclin (6'1 185), Darius Heyward (6'3 200), and Branden LaFell (6'3 205) would all most likely be rated higher than every reciever coming out this year. Plus there are players like USC's Patrick Turner (6'5 220) and OSU's Brian Robiskie (6'3 200) who are just as talented as devin thomas or limas sweed. rated by who and based on what? you're counting on those guys to have great years, and great senior bowls, and great combines... WITHOUT injuring themselves. and then MAYBE they would be ok to pick at the 11th spot? The draft is for the future, not the present. I'm not advocating ignoring the WR position in this draft, but WRs like Sweed and Thomas are available every year. The Bills will not be in a position to get as talented a DE as Darick Harvey in some time. This is the year to get a D-Line stud. the future is now. Who are our impact front seven defensive players? No one. With Miami drafting Jake Long, I think it becomes even more imperative to take an impact DE. Jake Long, Matt Light, D'Brickshaw Ferguson are not going anywhere anytime soon. Schobel, on the other hand, has about 2 seasons left as a Bill. Plus, I think the Bills are going to try to emulate some of the Giants defensive tactics in order to beat the Patriots offense. And why is it a given that WR is our biggest need position? Our DEs had 11 sacks last year. That is pathetic. Stroud will help, but he won't turn Kelsay and Denney into pass rushers, and he won't make schobel any younger. Harvey is a no-brainer if you ask me. This team still lacks elite young defensive talent. WR at 11 is a Donahoe move. while i agree that we could always use help in the trenches, the fact that the Oline and Dline have been addressed through Free Agency and the Draft at all, combined with WR being one of our biggest needs, makes this a non-Donahoe move. id be happy if the Bills picked a DL or OL. dont get me wrong. but im not gonna cry and call them stupid like I know something they dont if they DO happen to go WR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 They must have been getting come pressure too. Its not like the QB walked into them Really? Is that why they were ranked 31st overall in defense? Looks to me like QBs had a field day against this defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 I see that there are a lot of folks manipulating stats to try to prove their case.... While I am not very good at that I have to ask.....when looking at Kelsay and Denny's sack totals from last year... WERE NOT BOTH OF THEM HURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Really? Is that why they were ranked 31st overall in defense? Looks to me like QBs had a field day against this defense. Are we talking about last year or the year before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Really? Is that why they were ranked 31st overall in defense? Looks to me like QBs had a field day against this defense. you make a lot of detailed assumptions based on all-encompassing rankings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 This is starting to take us back to the basic arguement...... How good can your DE's be when you cant stop the run up the middle.....how do DE's get sacks off the edge when all the opposing QB has to do is take a step up into the pocket behind center to buy extra precious time to find the reciever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 you make a lot of detailed assumptions based on all-encompassing rankings... Well that's just a talking point. At the end of the day, I watched every single game and came to the conclusion that our pass rush is simply not good enough. Now improving the pass rush can come in many forms... one is by bolstering the secondary. If you can cover the top WRs in this league, that leads to coverage sacks. Schobel is a perfect example of this -- with Nate blanketing top receivers two years ago, Schobel, with his never-quit motor, benefited greatly. Another way to bolster the pass rush is to beef up the middle of the defense. The Bills did that with the addition of Stroud and Spencer Johnson. Another way is to bolster the DE corps. Kelsay and Denney are pretty good, but we can use another disruptive player in the DE rotation, especially with Hargrove out with a suspension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Well that's just a talking point. At the end of the day, I watched every single game and came to the conclusion that our pass rush is simply not good enough. Now improving the pass rush can come in many forms... one is by bolstering the secondary. If you can cover the top WRs in this league, that leads to coverage sacks. Schobel is a perfect example of this -- with Nate blanketing top receivers two years ago, Schobel, with his never-quit motor, benefited greatly. Another way to bolster the pass rush is to beef up the middle of the defense. The Bills did that with the addition of Stroud and Spencer Johnson. Another way is to bolster the DE corps. Kelsay and Denney are pretty good, but we can use another disruptive player in the DE rotation, especially with Hargrove out with a suspension. Another way to improve the pass rush is to have your DEs healthy for a full season, much as they were in 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Well that's just a talking point. At the end of the day, I watched every single game and came to the conclusion that our pass rush is simply not good enough. Now improving the pass rush can come in many forms... one is by bolstering the secondary. If you can cover the top WRs in this league, that leads to coverage sacks. Schobel is a perfect example of this -- with Nate blanketing top receivers two years ago, Schobel, with his never-quit motor, benefited greatly. Another way to bolster the pass rush is to beef up the middle of the defense. The Bills did that with the addition of Stroud and Spencer Johnson. Another way is to bolster the DE corps. Kelsay and Denney are pretty good, but we can use another disruptive player in the DE rotation, especially with Hargrove out with a suspension. but im not arguing that our defense doesnt need some help. this thread is about taking a WR at 11. and i can use every single one of your arguments, turn it around, and use it on our "30th ranked offense" and its inability to score points (especially in the redzone) and be anything more than a one-dimensional running game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 We dont even know that Harvey is the stud you are talking about....there are several mocks that have him in the latter part of the 1st round. and all it would take is some of these receivers having an injury or a down year to change the whole outlook of the WR class......(for instance Limus Sweed was a top prospect before the wrist injury) I dont want a WR at 11.....but I have no problem taking one down the draft board a bit. I am not playing for NEXT year....I want this team to play for THIS year. Hopefully we will do well enough that our pick next year wont be at 11 Correct about an injury changing next year's WR class, but the point is that the talent is better. Our overall talent is lower than most teams defensively. We cannot draft thinking short term, that is what bad FOs do. We need to maximize the value of that 11th pick. I don't want a WR at 11, but if we are trading back picking up more picks in later rounds or in next year's draft and then take WR at 19 or 24. I will be fine with that. I think devin thomas is good prospect, but he is not worth taking with the 11th pick if Rodgers-Cromartie, Rivers, Albert, Williams or Clady are still there. In regards to Harvey, I just think he is really good and makes our D-Line pretty dominant. But there are other "can't miss" prospects that will be available and I think it will be a mistake to pass them up because we need a wideout. Are we really doing that much worse if take Jordy Nelson in round 2? Or getting a stopgap player after July 1st cuts and then addressing WR in next year's draft? I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 but im not arguing that our defense doesnt need some help. this thread is about taking a WR at 11. and i can use every single one of your arguments, turn it around, and use it on our "30th ranked offense" and its inability to score points (especially in the redzone) and be anything more than a one-dimensional running game. It just seems to me that we have a starter at every position on defense (while they could be upgraded) but there are offensive spots that are not filled Who is going opposite Evans.....Josh Reed? When we are in the red zone who is our Tight End? Gaines was better then Royal and he is gone. There is something else to consider here to......we seem to not be doing a very good job cultivating our QB's the only exception to that was Drew Bledsoe when we gave him both Eric Moulds AND Peerless Price and our offense soared......what are we giving our young QB to develop? Lee Evans is a DEEP THREAT for a QB who doesn't throw the ball deep on every play. He needs OPTIONS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Correct about an injury changing next year's WR class, but the point is that the talent is better. Our overall talent is lower than most teams defensively. We cannot draft thinking short term, that is what bad FOs do. We need to maximize the value of that 11th pick. I don't want a WR at 11, but if we are trading back picking up more picks in later rounds or in next year's draft and then take WR at 19 or 24. I will be fine with that. I think devin thomas is good prospect, but he is not worth taking with the 11th pick if Rodgers-Cromartie, Rivers, Albert, Williams or Clady are still there. In regards to Harvey, I just think he is really good and makes our D-Line pretty dominant. But there are other "can't miss" prospects that will be available and I think it will be a mistake to pass them up because we need a wideout. Are we really doing that much worse if take Jordy Nelson in round 2? Or getting a stopgap player after July 1st cuts and then addressing WR in next year's draft? I don't know. These are good points...I dont know for sure either. I dont know that Cromartie is the answer....I think people love him because of his relation in San Diego...he is not that player. A lot of scouts think he is just a track star and is unpolished. With playing the cover two do we NEED a top corner? I am totally against take "LINEMEN" at the top of this draft (with the exception of Harvey or equiv) because we have addressed this in other ways....we have to have some sort of balance to this team. What good does it do to stop a team on defense when our offense can score. This will make us the Ravens (who we beat this past year) I am also afraid of not doing the right thing this time with our QB......Trent Edwards needs to be brought along and need a comfort zone by putting better players around him.....not the guy that the defense bitches at in the locker room because they are hold teams to 10 points and losing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 rated by who and based on what? you're counting on those guys to have great years, and great senior bowls, and great combines... WITHOUT injuring themselves. and then MAYBE they would be ok to pick at the 11th spot? the future is now. while i agree that we could always use help in the trenches, the fact that the Oline and Dline have been addressed through Free Agency and the Draft at all, combined with WR being one of our biggest needs, makes this a non-Donahoe move. id be happy if the Bills picked a DL or OL. dont get me wrong. but im not gonna cry and call them stupid like I know something they dont if they DO happen to go WR. I don't think we have done anything to upgrade the DE position, the center position, or the WR position. I think we maximize our value if we take a DE at 11 and WR in round 2. If we are counting on this player to come in and start from day one we are looking at another 6-10, 7-9, 8-8 season so the future is not now. 2nd year starting QB, 2nd year starting RB, MLB has played 3 career games. I would say they are definitely building for the future, while trying to be competitive now. If our scouts have a WR rated as around the 11th - 20th best player then fine. Take the WR. But we have a good chance of being the team that passes up drafting Warren Sapp or Jevon Kearse to draft J.J. Stokes or David Terrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 tom donahoe exposed! Yeah really. Like there weren't 100's of better players available when we took Roscoe. Man, he's been a great punt returner, hasn't he. Maybe we can take a long snapper in the first round this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrobot Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 The key isn't "wanting to win" I think its about actually winning. We gotta get a credible passing game to do that. You might "want to win" with a ballerina, a duck and truman capote. You're gonna actually do it with a running game a passing game and a very tough defense. [in my best Truman Capote voice]: "Which one of you is the duck?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 can you explain to me what WR will be there in the second round for us? We need a starting WR and I am not so sure we will find one if we put it of past round one and it is not a reach if you fill a need and draft a player 5 slots before he is projected to go None of these WRs will be good starting options this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obie_wan Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 If Kelsay and Denney aren't pass rushers, how did they combine for 12 sacks in 2006? wow 12 sacks combined with our scheme to rotate DL on every other snap - that leaves a bunch of down time where we have no rush. each will also be 2 years older. Take the impact defender over the WR at #11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 None of these WRs will be good starting options this year. DOn't have tunnel vision...its not just about this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramius Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 wow 12 sacks combined with our scheme to rotate DL on every other snap - that leaves a bunch of down time where we have no rush. each will also be 2 years older. Take the impact defender over the WR at #11 Lets see, in 2006, 1 DE had 14.5 sacks, and the other side of the line combined for 12 sacks. How many teams get 26.5 sacks from the DE position? Oh thats right. You live in a little world where all teams have 2 12-sack per year players on them. And how do you know the defender is going to be impact? You are focused on this rut that any defender taken at 11 will be a pro-bowler, while any WR taken there will be a bust, which, while completely asinine, is right up your alley of moron-think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawgg Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 And how do you know the defender is going to be impact? You are focused on this rut that any defender taken at 11 will be a pro-bowler, while any WR taken there will be a bust, which, while completely asinine, is right up your alley of moron-think. The probability that a defender will make an immediate impact is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than that of a WR -- that's a fact. If the team's scouting department is good, they should be able to find a good receiver after round 1 and get immediate help from a defensive playmaker at #11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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