Buffalo isn't chasing away FA's like some think

[ganesh]

I'm mainly talking about Clements and Winfield. Perhaps not "great" players but not the kind of players you want to keep letting go and having to draft their replacements. Doing that is the equivalent of running on a treadmill. I don't even want to hear the cap arguement because the Bills haven't been near the cap in years. The day they're close to the cap is the day I'll worry about "overspending" on a player.

 

This is the problem...You yourself have agreed that they are not great players, but top-shelf players....However, when top-shelf players want to be paid as the greatest player at that position, I don't think a small market team like Buffalo can afford to put all that money in one basket. We are not a washington that can generate 50M more non-shared revenues that you can throw that extra money at average players.

 

One of the best examples is Bruschi. He took a much below market value offer from the Patriots to stay with the Patriots. He knew he was not a great linebacker, but was part and parcel of a fantastic defense and he took money that made him happy, not being egotistic. The same goes with players like Hines Ward, who considering the kind of #s he has put up in the last 6 years, did not even get a contract close to what a Marvin Harrison or even a Reggie Wayne got, yet chose to be part of a team that will eventually win the big one....

 

Lot of people here blame the bills for letting players go away....A lot of times, players stay back giving up some money and build that team-first attitude....and those are the teams that go on to win super bowls...The problem is many of the "very good" bills players think they are the best in the business and want to be treated like that without putting the "team" first in their priority order...

[MDH]

Lot of people here blame the bills for letting players go away....A lot of times, players stay back giving up some money and build that team-first attitude....and those are the teams that go on to win super bowls...The problem is many of the "very good" bills players think they are the best in the business and want to be treated like that without putting the "team" first in their priority order...

 

Players are only going to take below market value from their team if their team is winning. Until a team gets to that point they're going to have to slightly overspend for their good players. Otherwise the team will just keep turning their wheels getting nowhere.

 

How do you expect the Bills to become a consistent winner without going after difference makers in FA while at the same time not signing their top tier players to second contracts (even if they do have to overspend for them)? I just don't think it's possible.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Lot of people here blame the bills for letting players go away....A lot of times, players stay back giving up some money and build that team-first attitude....and those are the teams that go on to win super bowls...The problem is many of the "very good" bills players think they are the best in the business and want to be treated like that without putting the "team" first in their priority order...

Hence Marv's search for players of character. Conversely, you have guys of character like Fletcher who don't get offered a contract and you have to wonder what they're thinking. It's a tough road because you get some guys who truly are washed up and then others who really might just need the change in scenery to prove they have more left in the tank. Ruben Brown comes to mind here.

 

We talk all the time about wanting guys who want to be here. It's a little more complex than that and there are surely guys who want to be here whom we have no use for. It cuts both ways.

[ganesh]

Players are only going to take below market value from their team if their team is winning. Until a team gets to that point they're going to have to slightly overspend for their good players. Otherwise the team will just keep turning their wheels getting nowhere.

 

How do you expect the Bills to become a consistent winner without going after difference makers in FA while at the same time not signing their top tier players to second contracts (even if they do have to overspend for them)? I just don't think it's possible.

 

It is a catch-22 situation....On one hand the team could overpay a good player (not a great) and get stuck with a big contract from which they cannot recover for a few years. On the other hand, if a player stays back the continuity breeds winning.....So there has to be a give and take on both sides to get a fair deal done to keep the continuity going....But if the player keeps harping about getting the best deal at his position, then the team will not over pay and sign him to that contract, because it will tie the team hands from improving other parts of the team.

 

You don't go after the FA difference makers...which has been rare anyways....You DRAFT GREAT...and then get the mid level FAs to mesh with your team and build continuity.....For a team like the Bills with only so much money to spend, they need to spend it wisely.

[MDH]

People have this idea that the players feel the same way about their team that the fans do. Playing football is their job. How many of you out there would turn down a significant pay raise from another company because of some sense of loyalty to your current employer? Throwing a penny in the wishing well and hopinng beyond hope that the Bills can find playes who will agree to sign lowball contracts isn't a great strategy for building a team. Pay your good players market value, end of story.

[MDH]

It is a catch-22 situation....On one hand the team could overpay a good player (not a great) and get stuck with a big contract from which they cannot recover for a few years.

 

I'd agree with this point if the Bils were anywhere near the cap. However, they're not. They can overspend on several of players and it is not going to adversly effect their future ability to sign other players. They have so much room its ridiculous.

[ganesh]

Hence Marv's search for players of character. Conversely, you have guys of character like Fletcher who don't get offered a contract and you have to wonder what they're thinking. It's a tough road because you get some guys who truly are washed up and then others who really might just need the change in scenery to prove they have more left in the tank. Ruben Brown comes to mind here.

 

We talk all the time about wanting guys who want to be here. It's a little more complex than that and there are surely guys who want to be here whom we have no use for. It cuts both ways.

 

 

I think the Fletcher case is unique in that he is on the wrong side of 30s and also he is not their best fit for MLB in their scheme....(I think they think they need a bigger player there). Considering that London is one of Wilsons favorite player (he himself has said that), I can see the only reason they haven't offered him anything is they are not sold on him....

 

Reuben and Moulds were here for too long under unfortunate circumstances that included 4 different HC and 2 different regimes and they wanted to go just to be with a different organization. I think that is entirely a different situation.

 

What we want is more players like Peters, Schobel etc, who took below or market-value deals to build continuity....I hope players like Evans, Losman all will be thankful for their oppurtunity with this regime and do the same and the Bills will give them fair deals.

[ganesh]

I'd agree with this point if the Bils were anywhere near the cap. However, they're not. They can overspend on several of players and it is not going to adversly effect their future ability to sign other players. They have so much room its ridiculous.

 

I disagree...Actually overspending on average/good players will breed greediness in the team...Other players will want similar overpaid deals to be done for them... That is one of the big

things Belichek and Pioli want to avoid when big contracts come up...It is not that they don't want to give the big money....They don't want to do that so that the team is not divided and to set a precedence for others to request similar deals. The Pats are always well below the Cap...

 

I again blame owners like Snyder for spending recklessly and overpaying for average/good talent and putting the pressure on all the other owners to do so...The economics (forget whether we are the full cap or not) does not work.

[2003Contenders]

And I'd argue that with B-level free agents Donahoe missed more than he hit. That's probably what separates him from Scott Pioli. Everyone in the world can tell you that a healthy Takeo Spikes in the prime of his career is a can't-miss pickup. Not everyone can tell you which affordable linemen will fit in your system and work out nicely.

 

Last year Marv brought in:

Tripplett (OK, not awesome),

Bowen (wash, injury),

Royal (solid),

Reyes (flop),

A-Train (solid backup),

Kiwaukee Thomas (solid nickel guy),

Andre Davis (good ST, poor WR),

Peerless (sort of a call-it-as-you-see-it pickup, some liked it, some didn't)

Fowler (popular and quality C who seems to have a good rapport with JP, center of line got better as OGs were switched)

Nall (wash, probably a capable backup, OK problem to have as JP blossomed)

 

In red I have the signings for which something more was probably expected than what we got in return. I still think that Tripplett will be a quality signing, provided we back him up with a healthy McCargo and a new acquisition to better what we got from Tim Anderson. Bowen's signing now looks a bit silly in that we got solid production from the rooks and Leonhard looks like a chippy guy who can contribute on STs. Reyes should not have been signed. Peerless will either have to better what he did last year or take a demotion as new blood comes in. Again, Nall's non-production is not the worst issue to have and when we part ways with Holcomb it'll be good to have youth on our side in the backup position.

 

So I really like half of those signings and most of them have a chance to perform better than they did last year. I don't think Marv really struck out the way others did. What we got was probably good enough for an 8-8, 7-9 team. We now need an impact guy or two like Briggs to replace what we'll lose, with obvious decisions to be made at MLB, CB, 2a WR, and the defensive line.

 

Excellent points. The funny thing is that Reyes was probably the highest profile FA signing of all from last year.

 

For what it's worth, in Chris Brown's blog yesterday, he predicted that the Bills will let Gandy walk and go after Eric Steinbach in a major way. Also, don't get too excited about Briggs. Supposedly he and the Giants' Antonio Pierce are good friends -- and Pierce has been trying to woo him to come play for the Giants. Pierce told the press that he didn't think that the Giants would be able to afford Briggs... If the Giants can't afford him, where does that leave the Bills?

[MDH]

I disagree...Actually overspending on average/good players will breed greediness in the team...Other players will want similar overpaid deals to be done for them... That is one of the big

things Belichek and Pioli want to avoid when big contracts come up...It is not that they don't want to give the big money....They don't want to do that so that the team is not divided and to set a precedence for others to request similar deals. The Pats are always well below the Cap...

 

I again blame owners like Snyder for spending recklessly and overpaying for average/good talent and putting the pressure on all the other owners to do so...The economics (forget whether we are the full cap or not) does not work.

 

Belichick and Pioli are able to do this because the Patriots are a consistent winner. That's how you attract FAs and keep your own players at a reasonable price. A consistent losing franchise (like the Bills) can not hope to do it this way. It just isn't going to happen. It's a pipe dream.

 

And I'm not talking about breaking the bank on players, I'm talking about paying market value for players. Clements is a top 5 CB. Market value for a top 5 CB hitting FA is to make him one of the top 2 paid CBs in the league, it's as simple as that. If the Bills aren't willing to pay out a big contract to Clements as he hits his prime I have a hard time believing they're willing to pay out big money to any player. My guess is that the Bills don't think that a CB is a huge need in the cover 2 but I'm looking at it in more basic terms than that: You keep your good players. Who knows how long the Bilsl will be running the cover 2.

 

This is where the cap comes in. If the Bills were pressed up against the cap I'd say yeah, you go ahead and let Clements walk. However, they're not. They can keep Clements and STILL be 15-20 million under the cap next year. It's not going to breed some greed by average players as you suggest. It actually says just the opposite Imo, that the Bills are willing to take care of their own. Players like to see that from franchises, particularly ones that don't win. And spending the cash on Clements isn't going to prevent the Bills from making a play at other players that they think would help them. The only things not signing Clements does are make the Bills worse and save Ralph Wilson money.

[Orton's Arm]

Do you mean, remember back when we had one of the best defenses and special teams in the league? Yes is do.

The FA signings he mentioned are these: Spikes, Milloy, Sam Adams, Villarial, FLetcher, Bledsoe. Look at what they're bringing to the table today:

Spikes: injury makes him a question mark

Milloy: gone

Adams: gone

Villarrial: would make a decent backup

Fletcher: probably on his way out

Bledsoe: gone

So yes, the Bills used free agency to have one of the better defenses in 2004. But it wasn't a stepping stone to a successful 2005. It was a stepping stone off a cliff. Build through free agency, and you give yourself a very small window. Build through the draft, and your window gets bigger. Players work with each other over longer periods of time, and have the chance to develop chemistry.

 

One advantage to the bigger window is that it gives you more time to get the whole team built. Take the Colts. For many years, they had a good offense but lousy defense. But because that offense had been built through the draft, they were able to keep it intact for many years. That gave them the chance to get the defense fixed.

 

Compare that to the Bills--good (if overrated) defenses in 2003 and 2004, but a mediocre to bad offense. So the Bills focused on offense in the draft with picks like McGahee, Losman, Lee Evans, and every slot receiver that declared himself eligible. But even as we started getting production from some of those picks on offense, the free agent-based defense collapsed.

[BillsVet]

The FA signings he mentioned are these: Spikes, Milloy, Sam Adams, Villarial, FLetcher, Bledsoe. Look at what they're bringing to the table today:

Spikes: injury makes him a question mark

Milloy: gone

Adams: gone

Villarrial: would make a decent backup

Fletcher: probably on his way out

Bledsoe: gone

So yes, the Bills used free agency to have one of the better defenses in 2004. But it wasn't a stepping stone to a successful 2005. It was a stepping stone off a cliff. Build through free agency, and you give yourself a very small window. Build through the draft, and your window gets bigger. Players work with each other over longer periods of time, and have the chance to develop chemistry.

 

One advantage to the bigger window is that it gives you more time to get the whole team built. Take the Colts. For many years, they had a good offense but lousy defense. But because that offense had been built through the draft, they were able to keep it intact for many years. That gave them the chance to get the defense fixed.

 

Compare that to the Bills--good (if overrated) defenses in 2003 and 2004, but a mediocre to bad offense. So the Bills focused on offense in the draft with picks like McGahee, Losman, Lee Evans, and every slot receiver that declared himself eligible. But even as we started getting production from some of those picks on offense, the free agent-based defense collapsed.

 

 

 

I agree there's a window every team has to win or face starting over. With NE the only exception, most teams have 2-3 years to win or start over. I figure Buffalo's last window was 2003-04 when we had good teams on paper and still missed the playoffs with 6-10 and 9-7 records those years. I agree, free agency gives you less of that window, but when I look and see Losman, Evans, Crowell, Spikes, and Schobel have their deals end in either 08 or 09, our "window" is already closing. Everyone knows few draft picks have their best seasons as rookies. You've gotta wait until at least their 2nd or 3rd seasons. If all we're going to do is build through the draft and pick up bargain FA's, well, we may never get back to the playoffs because those picks who do succeed will be allowed to leave for more $$.

 

That's probably pessimistic assessment to some, but good free agent signings combined with good drafting will get us back to the playoffs. I'm not saying just spend on any "name" FA because they played well somewhere else because I believe Marv and Dick will assess who fits in with the current team. Last year they didn't make a splash and went 7-9. Keep in mind we did that WITH F-B and NC. Should those guys leave what are we then? This is why I advocate using some money in FA and giving us more than 1 or 2 years to win or face no postseason. There's cap money available that won't jeopordize re-signing Evans, Crowell, and whomever else down the road.

 

The time is now.

[Captain Hindsight]

You know, when a team signs players through free agency they don't give up draft picks. So you get to sign FAs AND use the draft to build your team. Any team that goes only one route isn't using all the tools available to them. This team isn't going to be able to compete year in and year out without using FA to cherry pick a few difference makers. Hell, this team doesn't even want to spend the money to keep their own difference makers. If the Bills are going to build through the draft they had better start signing their own players once their initial contracts are up.

 

Bottom line is that the Bills just aren't going to be able to compete on a consistent basis if they don't spend up to the cap. You can't be a consistant winner by using the draft and then not signing your own great players to second contracts. Sure they might have a year here or there where they exceed expectations and slip into the playoffs but they'll be a mediocre team at best overall if they're consistently 13+ million under the cap.

wait isnt that what the patriots and eagles do.....

[Blue Chipper]

Excellent points. The funny thing is that Reyes was probably the highest profile FA signing of all from last year.

 

For what it's worth, in Chris Brown's blog yesterday, he predicted that the Bills will let Gandy walk and go after Eric Steinbach in a major way. Also, don't get too excited about Briggs. Supposedly he and the Giants' Antonio Pierce are good friends -- and Pierce has been trying to woo him to come play for the Giants. Pierce told the press that he didn't think that the Giants would be able to afford Briggs... If the Giants can't afford him, where does that leave the Bills?

 

Is Steinbach the type of player Marve goes after? I thought he was arrested and charged with operating a boat under the influence. Not as serious as some of the other bengal arrests but still a crime. If you ask me a 6'6, 26 year old guard who has started evry game the past two seasons might be worth looking at.