I still don't like the Whitner and McCargo picks

[jimmyv.]

Were they playing on teams with new head coaches, new defensive coordinators, new defensive systems, starting FOUR other rookies regularly on defense, with huge questions in their front sevens? Not to let common sense get in the middle or anything.

 

 

I think the point in the beginning of this thread was the questioning of taking Whitner and McCargo in first round. Listen, I hope Whitner is all pro and makes 15 interceptions next year. All I'm saying is that so far I haven't seen anything in his play to justify his selection at #8 in draft. From what I saw of E. Reed and S. Taylor, I could see why teams selected them in first round, I think Taylor was taken #5 and Reed lower than Whitner, as they both showed the skills, hitting and tackling of impact players from the start. If Whitner can get much stronger, and develop better instincts, maybe he will turn out great... I sure hope he does.

[Ramius]

I think the point in the beginning of this thread was the questioning of taking Whitner and McCargo in first round. Listen, I hope Whitner is all pro and makes 15 interceptions next year. All I'm saying is that so far I haven't seen anything in his play to justify his selection at #8 in draft. From what I saw of E. Reed and S. Taylor, I could see why teams selected them in first round, I think Taylor was taken #5 and Reed lower than Whitner, as they both showed the skills, hitting and tackling of impact players from the start. If Whitner can get much stronger, and develop better instincts, maybe he will turn out great... I sure hope he does.

 

so lets say whitner isnt a spectacular game changer. lets say hes a solid player who doesnt get burned very often and shows up to play every day. lets say he's good enough that we dont have to worry about our SS for the next 10-12 years. Lets say he makes a pro-bowl or 2 here and there.

 

Are you going to come here in 2016 and B word that whitner still isnt good enough because we used the #8 overall on him, and that we could have gotten better value?

 

The amount fof emphasis here placed on so-called"draft value" is pathetic. We got a football player, plain and simple, and from the looks of it early on, a good one. And last time i checked, football players win football games, draft value doesnt.

[Orton's Arm]

The amount fof emphasis here placed on so-called"draft value" is pathetic. We got a football player, plain and simple, and from the looks of it early on, a good one. And last time i checked, football players win football games, draft value doesnt.

You honestly don't see a connection between draft value and football players? The Bills had the 8th overall pick in the draft. They used it to get Whitner. Instead they could have had Mangold (who looks like he'll be a better player than Whitner) plus a second round pick (who could have been another good football player).

[jimmyv.]

You honestly don't see a connection between draft value and football players? The Bills had the 8th overall pick in the draft. They used it to get Whitner. Instead they could have had Mangold (who looks like he'll be a better player than Whitner) plus a second round pick (who could have been another good football player).

 

 

good response. I guess some people are satisfied with " solid player" at #8 in draft; true you can do worse, but, point is the Bills could have done better, as you point out Holcombs Arm. I'd say I'd be satisfied with the description of K. Williams in round 5 turning into solid player.

[Bill from NYC]

so lets say whitner isnt a spectacular game changer. lets say hes a solid player who doesnt get burned very often and shows up to play every day. lets say he's good enough that we dont have to worry about our SS for the next 10-12 years. Lets say he makes a pro-bowl or 2 here and there.

 

Are you going to come here in 2016 and B word that whitner still isnt good enough because we used the #8 overall on him, and that we could have gotten better value?

 

Good point, but this would be unlikely because since 1993 the Bills have drafted 5 defensive backs in Round 1. Three of them left as free agents as soon as they were eligible to do so. Another seems to be on the verge of doing the same. During this time span, how many playoff wins have we enjoyed?

 

This is not to speak of the multitude of other 1st day DBs and UFAs. Last season was the pinacle of this bush league philosophy, whereas we used a 1st, 3rd, and 4th round picks on DBs, in addition to signing 2 UFA DBs.

The results? Teams ran all over us and our Guards were getting the snot kicked out of them consistently.

 

I was always of the opinion that running the football, and preventing your opponent from doing the same was the way to win football games. Playing in cold and snow probably increases the urgency of both.

Maybe Marv might take these things into consideration. I hope so, because if he fails to once again, we will probably continue to be a losing team. It is that simple imo.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

Good point, but this would be unlikely because since 1993 the Bills have drafted 5 defensive backs in Round 1. Three of them left as free agents as soon as they were eligible to do so. Another seems to be on the verge of doing the same. During this time span, how many playoff wins have we enjoyed?

 

This is not to speak of the multitude of other 1st day DBs and UFAs. Last season was the pinacle of this bush league philosophy, whereas we used a 1st, 3rd, and 4th round picks on DBs, in addition to signing 2 UFA DBs.

The results? Teams ran all over us and our Guards were getting the snot kicked out of them consistently.

 

I was always of the opinion that running the football, and preventing your opponent from doing the same was the way to win football games. Playing in cold and snow probably increases the urgency of both.

Maybe Marv might take these things into consideration. I hope so, because if he fails to once again, we will probably continue to be a losing team. It is that simple imo.

 

 

i'm of the mind he has taken those things into consideration and has a plan to address the needs. he's on record as stating the importance of solid line play on both sides of the ball. your analysis of a 'bush league' draft seems strong to me, but if you're disappointed in both the caliber of player and the decision-making that went into selecting the player, i guess bush league is as good a critique as any. i think the draft was a goos one in retrospect, and we'll see what happens in year two.

 

so what's your read on why they didn't go the correct way on draft day?

[Bill from NYC]

so what's your read on why they didn't go the correct way on draft day?

 

When Marv was coach, he was quoted as saying that a team 'can't have too many cornerbacks." Jauron IS a defensive back. I'm sure that buying into this philosophy helped land him the job. Please keep in mind that job offers didn'y appear to be plentiful for either of them, although I wish to make clear that I think Jauron did a splendid job given the schedule and the circumstances.

 

Because of the interesting quotes by Mr. Wilson, I think that there is a better chance of the Bills addressing line play. I hope they also draft at least 1 early linebacker. When the Bills are bigger and stronger up the middle, they will win more games and become a playoff team.

TD had some pretty big faults, but he left us with some good young players to build around.

[Mickey]

Obviously, in hindsight, they should've taken Ngata at #8, and they could've drafted Landry, the SS the Ravens ended up with, in the second round. I don't think anyone on this Board would dispute that this would have been a better outcome IN HINDSIGHT.

 

But all things considered, including the fact that Levy doesn't have the ability to predict the future, it was a good draft.

 

a little perspective might be called for here. If you take a look at drafts past, you will rarely find many where, three or four years later, more than two or three picks are still on the roster. Levy managed, by the end of the year to have four picks starting: Whitner, Pennington, Simpson and Williams. McCargo would have been getting starter like playing time if not for his injury. I would wager that there is a good chance that all five of these guys will still be on the roster four years from now and in fact, Youboty and Ellison could be as well.

 

That isn't a "good draft", that is a legendary draft.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

When Marv was coach, he was quoted as saying that a team 'can't have too many cornerbacks." Jauron IS a defensive back. I'm sure that buying into this philosophy helped land him the job. Please keep in mind that job offers didn'y appear to be plentiful for either of them, although I wish to make clear that I think Jauron did a splendid job given the schedule and the circumstances.

 

Because of the interesting quotes by Mr. Wilson, I think that there is a better chance of the Bills addressing line play. I hope they also draft at least 1 early linebacker. When the Bills are bigger and stronger up the middle, they will win more games and become a playoff team.

TD had some pretty big faults, but he left us with some good young players to build around.

 

 

seems reasonable. i was just wondering, in no particular order. but--i swear i've seen quotes from marv on the importance of building strong lines on o/d.

 

one quick thought that both perplexes and torments me in the recesses of my sould when, after midnight, the dead rise and walk the cold dead streets in search of souls to feast on:

 

how could any coach/scouting staff/gm NOT come to the conclusion that ignoring the line(s) is done at your own peril. it's like working out and having some pretty cut up arms and shoulders, and skinny legs and a fat flabalanche belly. with a multidue of people giving input, even if you had one or two guys pushing for other positions, you'd thinkl one would say "hey guys, i was just thinking, our running backs are rotinely hit a yard deep on running playsm, and our qb is sacked every 8 times he drops back to pass--what's up with that?". yet it seems that it's done by many teams year after year. i never played organized football in my life, and yet it seems like it should be as basic as breathing.

 

not necessarily looking for a response, just pondering.

[Ramius]

Good point, but this would be unlikely because since 1993 the Bills have drafted 5 defensive backs in Round 1. Three of them left as free agents as soon as they were eligible to do so. Another seems to be on the verge of doing the same. During this time span, how many playoff wins have we enjoyed?

 

This is not to speak of the multitude of other 1st day DBs and UFAs. Last season was the pinacle of this bush league philosophy, whereas we used a 1st, 3rd, and 4th round picks on DBs, in addition to signing 2 UFA DBs.

The results? Teams ran all over us and our Guards were getting the snot kicked out of them consistently.

 

I was always of the opinion that running the football, and preventing your opponent from doing the same was the way to win football games. Playing in cold and snow probably increases the urgency of both.

Maybe Marv might take these things into consideration. I hope so, because if he fails to once again, we will probably continue to be a losing team. It is that simple imo.

 

I hate when facts interrupt a good rant, even a solid 10 month rant on the exact same subject, but...

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=3741

 

The only question the Bills had with the pick of Simpson was whether or not to address defensive tackle again. Levy was concerned that LSU defensive tackle Kyle Williams would not be on the board in Round Five.

 

"When we were on the board in the fourth round there was a long, hard discussion as to whether we should take Kyle Williams there who we wanted badly," Levy said. "With a bit of a grimace they finally convinced me to take Simpson and we were fortunate to get Williams in the fifth round."

 

Whats bush league is somehow thinking drafting 7 OL every year and starting jabari greer, kiwaukee thomas, and matt bowen is going to lead you anywhere.

[Scraps]

I hate when facts interrupt a good rant, even a solid 10 month rant on the exact same subject, but...

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=3741

Whats bush league is somehow thinking drafting 7 OL every year and starting jabari greer, kiwaukee thomas, and matt bowen is going to lead you anywhere.

 

Who is thinking the Bills should draft 7 Offensive Linemen every year?

[Lurker]

10 month rant on the exact same subject...

 

I guess that's what you get when you don't have Big Mike Williams to kick around anymore.

 

Mental masterbation at it's best...

[Alaska Darin]

I think the point in the beginning of this thread was the questioning of taking Whitner and McCargo in first round. Listen, I hope Whitner is all pro and makes 15 interceptions next year. All I'm saying is that so far I haven't seen anything in his play to justify his selection at #8 in draft. From what I saw of E. Reed and S. Taylor, I could see why teams selected them in first round, I think Taylor was taken #5 and Reed lower than Whitner, as they both showed the skills, hitting and tackling of impact players from the start. If Whitner can get much stronger, and develop better instincts, maybe he will turn out great... I sure hope he does.

Better instincts? You mean like covering a third of the field to break up the two point conversion pass to beat Miami? You people fuggin' amaze me with your inability to even know what the hell you are watching.

[Sketch Soland]

Better instincts? You mean like covering a third of the field to break up the two point conversion pass to beat Miami? You people fuggin' amaze me with your inability to even know what the hell you are watching.

 

yes, but you forget, because whitner wasn't immediately inducted into the HOF after his rookie year, that means he is not worth the 8th pick. case closed. there is no way he can develop and grow into an even better player if he continues to play because this line of thinking would be what we call a case of "intuitive" logic, which we know is bs because one year is enough to close the book for good on a player.

[jimmyv.]

Good point, but this would be unlikely because since 1993 the Bills have drafted 5 defensive backs in Round 1. Three of them left as free agents as soon as they were eligible to do so. Another seems to be on the verge of doing the same. During this time span, how many playoff wins have we enjoyed?

 

This is not to speak of the multitude of other 1st day DBs and UFAs. Last season was the pinacle of this bush league philosophy, whereas we used a 1st, 3rd, and 4th round picks on DBs, in addition to signing 2 UFA DBs.

The results? Teams ran all over us and our Guards were getting the snot kicked out of them consistently.

 

I was always of the opinion that running the football, and preventing your opponent from doing the same was the way to win football games. Playing in cold and snow probably increases the urgency of both.

Maybe Marv might take these things into consideration. I hope so, because if he fails to once again, we will probably continue to be a losing team. It is that simple imo.

 

Exactly...build both lines. It amazes me that people still see the need to draft an early round CB this year...not the way to go, unless sure HOF drops to us. when I last checked there are no dominant type DBs this year. I didn't understand Bills draft a year ago, but, I hope it works out.

[jimmyv.]

Better instincts? You mean like covering a third of the field to break up the two point conversion pass to beat Miami? You people fuggin' amaze me with your inability to even know what the hell you are watching.

 

 

I do know what I'm talking about. You're taking everything I say out of context. So he made one good, or even great play, that means he has great instincts...right on with your asinine logic. I'm comparing him to other first round picks by other teams at the safety position, like S. Taylor and E. Reed. So far, Whitner has not shown similar ability or instincts, I stand by this statement, and I don't think you would hear much argument from anyone who knows football. Maybe, Whitner does turn out to be like those other DBs, I sure as hell hope he does. Tell me how many GMs or HCs in league would take Whitner over S. Taylor or E. Reed. I don't think you would find many, except maybe Marv or Jauron.

[Pyrite Gal]

I think the real answer considering whether Whitner was a good pick is to simply think about the other options for the Bills at SS.

 

Once the Bills decided to cut Lawyer Milloy and made a decision that there were no FA SS's they were interested in starting, the draft really was their only choice. This was not an outrageous thought since the Bills not only had the #8 pick with only a few teams in front of them, but given the apparent needs of those teams, the Bills might even have a choice at SS between two players they felt could start right away Whitner and Huff.

 

The Bills had probably looked carefully at the needs of teams picking behind them as if in fact the had the choice between the two, even if the preferred one of the other (and they said they always wanted Whitner, but everyone says that about the guy they picked really). Methinks that if in fact Oakland had not picked Huff we likely would be arguing over whether they got enough value in their trade down as I suspect they would have happily traded down to get more picks in this rebuilding year to a point where they still felt sure of getting one of these two.

 

Once Huff was picked, it was really not a question of who they would choose but when would they pick Whitner.

 

A look at the alternate draft choices the Bills would have had if they had risked trading down in the hopes of still getting Whitner or if they had in fact taken DT N'gata and thus made their SS choice late is interesting.

 

These were the potential SS's taken after Whitner:

 

#15- Jason Allen- Miami

#40- Daniel Bullocks- Detroit

#42- Danael Manning- Chicago

#54- Bernard Pollack- KC

 

There seems to me little question comparing these players to our choice that Whitner had a better season. Allen was not able to break into Miami's starting lineup at all this season and neither did Pollack for KC. Bullock did eventually become a starter but did not start right away for DET. Even worse he lost the job for whatever reason and not only did not start the last 5 games but was not even active for DET's final game. Manning was the best performer among the players listed as potential SS candidates, though he did finish the season as a constant starter it was at FS for the Bears and he did not start immediately. He produced no where near the 100+ tackles Whitner produced.

 

Thus, anyone who says they do not like the Whitner pick at all reasonably needs to say who they would have had at SS (Coy Wire was the heir apparent) or if they insist that we could have traded down, the fact that Detroit which had #9 behind us went with an SS in round 2 is a sign they clearly needed and valued this position and if we had traded down we may well have ended up with one of these other players as our choice as SS starter.

 

Not only is there a risk in trading down that DET might take Whitner with the next pick, but we also risked MIA trading up above us and picking off Whitner.

 

It appears to me that not only would have been a huge risk not to take Whitner at #8 if you want him in particular, but actually the likelihood if we had passed on picking him would have been Coy Wire starting at SS.

 

I'm not sure how much folks would have preferred N'gata or even disliked Whitner but its hard for me to believe that they would have named this thread based on the likely outcome if we had done this which is that Coy Wire would have started the season for us at SS.

 

As Willis says. Case closed.

[Alaska Darin]

I do know what I'm talking about. You're taking everything I say out of context. So he made one good, or even great play, that means he has great instincts...right on with your asinine logic.

As opposed to yours, you mean? You'll forgive me for not taking the opinion of someone who has no idea what is being coached or who can only watch what is being shown to them on television (which generally means you see about 10% of what a safety does in any given game). Whitner made plenty of very good, instinctive plays this season. I simply picked the easiest one for the simpletons to remember.

I'm comparing him to other first round picks by other teams at the safety position, like S. Taylor and E. Reed. So far, Whitner has not shown similar ability or instincts, I stand by this statement, and I don't think you would hear much argument from anyone who knows football.

Right, except both of the players you're comparing our Strong Safety to play Free Safety (but you know football). I won't even get into the different defensive philosophies between Baltimore, Washington, and Buffalo - because if you can't discern the difference between free safety and strong safety play, it's going to be really tough for you to understand that tidbit.

Maybe, Whitner does turn out to be like those other DBs, I sure as hell hope he does. Tell me how many GMs or HCs in league would take Whitner over S. Taylor or E. Reed. I don't think you would find many, except maybe Marv or Jauron.

Right, because that's the argument. I wasn't aware Taylor or Reed were on the board when Whitner was taken.

[Orton's Arm]

I hate when facts interrupt a good rant, even a solid 10 month rant on the exact same subject, but...

 

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=3741

Whats bush league is somehow thinking drafting 7 OL every year and starting jabari greer, kiwaukee thomas, and matt bowen is going to lead you anywhere.

You missed Bill's point. On the one hand, the Bills use a lot of first round picks on defensive backs. On the other, those defensive backs seldom remain here beyond their first contracts. Nate Clements may be a good case in point, as was Antoine Winfield. The Bills have been dumping too many high round draft picks into their secondary, while at the same time neglecting the offensive line.

 

The link you provided does nothing to refute anything Bill's been saying. On the contrary, Bill made it very clear he's quite happy with the second day of the Bills' most recent draft.

[jimmyv.]

As opposed to yours, you mean? You'll forgive me for not taking the opinion of someone who has no idea what is being coached or who can only watch what is being shown to them on television (which generally means you see about 10% of what a safety does in any given game). Whitner made plenty of very good, instinctive plays this season. I simply picked the easiest one for the simpletons to remember.

 

Right, except both of the players you're comparing our Strong Safety to play Free Safety (but you know football). I won't even get into the different defensive philosophies between Baltimore, Washington, and Buffalo - because if you can't discern the difference between free safety and strong safety play, it's going to be really tough for you to understand that tidbit.

 

Right, because that's the argument. I wasn't aware Taylor or Reed were on the board when Whitner was taken.

 

 

I sure as hell Whitner turns out to be fine safety. I guess you have different standards than me.