Nice article on

[bills_fan]

Butler/Smith Article

 

Enjoy the read. Many Buffalo references.

[Bob in STL]

Butler/Smith Article

 

Enjoy the read.  Many Buffalo references.

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Good article. I met John Butler once and we talked football for a good 30 minutes. What a great guy. He loved football and he loved the Buffalo fans.

 

I wish Butler would have stayed in Buffalo, gutted the team that was in cap hell, and then rebuilt it with AJ Smith at his side.

 

I do believe we would have seen better football then we did in the TD era. I don't even want to hear about Butler's last draft, I am looking at his entire career when i make these statements.

 

The Butler-Smith connection makes me pull for the Chargers in the playoffs.

[ganesh]

Good article.  I met John Butler once and we talked football for a good 30 minutes.  What a great guy.  He loved football and he loved the Buffalo fans. 

 

I wish Butler would have stayed in Buffalo, gutted the team that was in cap hell, and then rebuilt it with AJ Smith at his side. 

 

I do believe we would have seen better football then we did in the TD era.  I don't even want to hear about Butler's last draft, I am looking at his entire career when i make these statements. 

 

The Butler-Smith connection makes me pull for the Chargers in the playoffs.

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Butler saw the writing on the wall. He was the GM here for 6 years after Polian was sent packing. He built a team with veterans and knew that 1999 would be his last shot. He did not want to face the cap mess that he had created. He kept dodging requests by Wilson to negotiate a contract. Ralph being cheap to pay his GM was conveniently used as an excuse to get out of Buffalo and he had the opportunity at San Diego where he could start over again. A.J. Smith was Butlers right hand man and he moved on when Butler did.

 

Also, look at some of the help the chargers have received. In a 5 year span during the Butler/A.J. Smith regime, they got to PICK #1 TWICE. And in both those years they were able to parlay that #1 pick into multiple first rounders due to the guy that was available #1. In 2001, they traded the rights to Michael Vick and moved down 3 spots to get L.T, as Running back was a big need for them. It is not like Smith had vision of LT being the greatest RB ever and picked him at #1 spot. Then in 2004, luck stuck again, as Eli Manning refused to play in SD and wanted to play in New York . This pushed another bunch of 1st round picks into the lap of the chargers when they all along wanted to pick the more complete QB in Phillip Rivers. To make it even better, their starting QB who had stunk up the joint for 4 years, forcing them to go QB with their #1 pick suddenly became a super star in the league allowing their new QB to sit on the bench and learn.

 

In that same period we picked once in the top 5 (#4) and we could neither trade up nor trade down to pick an impact player. All we got for that was Mike Williams. Talk about fortunes swinging towards San Diego.

[Bob in STL]

Butler saw the writing on the wall.  He was the GM here for 6 years after Polian was sent packing.  He built a team with veterans and knew that 1999 would be his last shot. He did not want to face the cap mess that he had created.  He kept dodging requests by Wilson to negotiate a contract.  Ralph being cheap to pay his GM was conveniently used as an excuse to get out of Buffalo and he had the opportunity at  San Diego where he could start over again.  A.J. Smith was Butlers right hand man and he moved on when Butler did.  

 

Also,  look at some of the help the chargers have received.  In a 5 year span during the Butler/A.J. Smith regime, they got to PICK #1 TWICE.  And in both those years they were able to parlay that #1 pick into multiple first rounders due to the guy that was available #1.  In 2001, they traded the rights to Michael Vick and moved down 3 spots to get L.T, as Running back was a big need for them.  It is not like Smith had vision of LT being the greatest RB ever and picked him at #1 spot.  Then in 2004, luck stuck again, as Eli Manning refused to play in SD and wanted to play in New York .  This pushed another bunch of 1st round picks into the lap of the chargers when they all along wanted to pick the more complete QB in Phillip Rivers.  To make it even better,  their starting QB who had stunk up the joint for 4 years, forcing them to go QB with their #1 pick suddenly became a super star in the league allowing their new QB to sit on the bench and learn.

 

In that same period we picked once in the top 5 (#4) and we could neither trade up nor trade down to pick an impact player. All we got for that was Mike Williams.  Talk about fortunes swinging towards San Diego.

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.... and he and AJ did not miss on a single pick. Trading the Vick pick was awesome, give credit. Picking LT, was also an awesome move. Then they drafted Brees and stuck witrh him. Call it luck but these guys did not make a mistake either. SD was the worst franchise in the league until Butler showed up!

[Cynical]

....  and he and AJ did not miss on a single pick.  Trading the Vick pick was awesome, give credit.  Picking LT, was also an awesome move.  Then they drafted Brees and stuck witrh him.  Call it luck but these guys did not make a mistake either.  SD was the worst franchise in the league until Butler showed up!

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I'll give more credit to Smith than Butler. Butler's biggest flaw was player "value". In the same two years, Butler also did the following:

 

-Got rid of K John Carney for Wade Richey

-Signed WR Tim Dwight to a contract that paid him #1 WR money when Dwight was/is clearly at best a #3 WR

-Signed TE Stephen Alexander to a contract that not only stunned the player and his agent, but the rest of the NFL.

-Signed Wiley to an enormous contract that he never lived up to

 

In late 2002 / early 2003, after two years of Butler, I had read an article where there were concerns with the Chargers salary cap. The article noted that in about 1-2 years, unless something was done, the Chargers were going to be in trouble with their salary cap.

 

As gruesome as it sounds, the best thing that happened to San Diego is Butler died, thereby turning over control to Smith.

[ofiba]

Then they drafted Brees and stuck with him. 

865027[/snapback]

 

I don't know if you can call drafting a QB in the top 5 to replace Brees "sticking" with him. They only reason Rivers didn't start the year is because he held out in training camp. Brees got to start again and the rest is history.

[dave mcbride]

Butler saw the writing on the wall.  He was the GM here for 6 years after Polian was sent packing.  He built a team with veterans and knew that 1999 would be his last shot. He did not want to face the cap mess that he had created.  He kept dodging requests by Wilson to negotiate a contract.  Ralph being cheap to pay his GM was conveniently used as an excuse to get out of Buffalo and he had the opportunity at  San Diego where he could start over again. 

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Since when did the opportunity to essentially quadruple one's salary become merely a "convenient excuse"?

[Scraps]

Since when did the opportunity to essentially quadruple one's salary become merely a "convenient excuse"?

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What was Ralph Wilson offering him?

[Bob in STL]

In late 2002 / early 2003, after two years of Butler, I had read an article where there were concerns with the Chargers salary cap. The article noted that in about 1-2 years, unless something was done, the Chargers were going to be in trouble with their salary cap.

 

As gruesome as it sounds, the best thing that happened to San Diego is Butler died, thereby turning over control to Smith.

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Yes, not all of Butler's moves were great ones. The same can be said for any GM. Your comment on the salary cap is completely unfair.

 

Smith has done a great job, and so did Butler before him. Lets leave it at that.

[Lurker]

Since when did the opportunity to essentially quadruple one's salary become merely a "convenient excuse"?

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[ganesh]

I don't know if you can call drafting a QB in the top 5 to replace Brees "sticking" with him.  They only reason Rivers didn't start the year is because he held out in training camp.  Brees got to start again and the rest is history.

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Thank you for a clear response. As I said San Diego got very lucky. Sometimes luck favors the brave. Jimmy Johnson made that calculated trade to send Herschel walker packing from Dallas and that returned them 3 SBs in 4 years. San Diego might be on its way thanks to Michael Vick and Eli Manning.

[ganesh]

Since when did the opportunity to essentially quadruple one's salary become merely a "convenient excuse"?

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The only reason I put that as an excuse was that Butler never even offered a chance to Wilson to talk a contract. I am sure Butler was not going to be paid 1/4th of what he got in San Diego for renegotiating a new contract with Wilson. The facts are that Butler knew that the Bills were going to be in Salary Cap hell and have a few 3 to 4 win seasons and he did not want any part of it. And San Diego with the 1st pick in the draft was a perfect situation to go and start afresh.

[Cynical]

Yes, not all of Butler's moves were great ones.  The same can be said for any GM.  Your comment on the salary cap is completely unfair.   

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Unfair? Why? How?

 

Butler's mismanagement of the salary cap is part of the reason the Bills have been bottom feeders for the past 6 years.

 

So, was it "fair" for Butler to screw up the Bills salary cap and then leave?

[ganesh]

Unfair? Why? How?

 

Butler's mismanagement of the salary cap is part of the reason the Bills have been bottom feeders for the past 6 years.

 

So, was it "fair" for Butler to screw up the Bills salary cap and then leave?

865782[/snapback]

 

Add to it one of the most horrible 1999 Draft....Erik Flowers, Travers Tillman.....Uh

[dave mcbride]

What was Ralph Wilson offering him?

865527[/snapback]

We do know now that Donohoe was not in it for the money, and made about $1 million a year. Moreover, none of the Bills' coaches since 01 have made more than roughly $1-1.5 million a year. Basically, Wilson has *never* paid management the going rate, assuming (rightly, I would argue) that he could find decent talent willing to take less than the Nick Sabans and Bill Parcells of the world. From what I read about Butler in 1999-2000 (and I read a lot), the raises hinted at were incremental, which would have been par for the course for Wilson. An 80 year old leopard doesn't change his spots, and I certainly doubt that Wilson underwent a radical philosophical change regarding pay scales for coaches and GMs. In any event, since Butler left, Wilson has ended up with GMs willing to tak $1 million/year, and coaches willing to slide into the bottom of the pay scale. So I suspect that his philosophy has been reinforced in his mind, if anything.

[loadofmularkey]

Add to it one of the most horrible 1999 Draft....Erik Flowers, Travers Tillman.....Uh

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Ugh, I can't believe it took this long for that abortion of a draft to be brought up. Too bad that was JB's last draft and unfortunately, one of my parting memories of him. Sad but true.

 

That may be the worst draft of any team in NFL history. Let's take a trip down memory lane, for fun:

 

1. Erik Flowers DE Arizona State (26)

2. Travares Tillman FS Georgia Tech (58)

3. Corey Moore LB Virginia Tech (89)

4. Avion Black WR Tennessee State (121)

5. Sammy Morris RB Texas Tech (156)

6. Leif Larsen DT Texas El-Paso (194)

7a. Drew Haddad WR Buffalo (233)

7b.^ DaShon Polk LB Arizona (251)

 

 

Out of all those, only Morris has "made it". If you count being a backup RB as "making it". Although he has been decent in relief of Ronnie Brown the last few weeks.

[dave mcbride]

Add to it one of the most horrible 1999 Draft....Erik Flowers, Travers Tillman.....Uh

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It was actually the 2000 draft that was the problem. When bringing up that draft, though, it's best to put it in perspective by including the drafts from 1988-1999. It's really easy to pick the bad egg out of a dozen where 11 are fine ...

[Bob in STL]

Unfair? Why? How?

 

Butler's mismanagement of the salary cap is part of the reason the Bills have been bottom feeders for the past 6 years.

 

So, was it "fair" for Butler to screw up the Bills salary cap and then leave?

865782[/snapback]

 

BS - The cap was not a 6 year problem. TD cleared out the cap issue in two years, just like any other GM could do. Cutting expensive players and playing rookies is not hard or ingenious, but all teams get to that point sooner or later.

 

It is unfair because Butler sacrificed the cap to keep a team of veteran players together for one more run at the Super Bowl. The last legitimate run was the year of the "homerun throwback". Ralph was desperate for a title if you recall and Ralph was on board with the direction. Ralph tried to re-sign Butler to a new contract but Butler was evidently pissed about Ralph's interference with Wade, and also the Flutie-Johnson debacle. That is why he left. He did not run away from the cap.

 

Butler could have gutted the team and stockpiled draft picks just like TD did. That was not the directed that managemnent wanted to go.

 

I look at Butlers drafting and scouting record over his entire career and I say he was one of the best. I don't think he was a great GM in all aspects of the job, but he was excellent at judging talent. Ask Polian, Levy, Smith, etc.

[Gordio]

Add to it one of the most horrible 1999 Draft....Erik Flowers, Travers Tillman.....Uh

865876[/snapback]

 

 

Great point, to be honest with you, this draft in my opinion was the key component in our current 8yr slide. You just can not miss on a draft that badly.

[ganesh]

Out of all those, only Morris has "made it".  If you count being a backup RB as "making it".  Although he has been decent in relief of Ronnie Brown the last few weeks.

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I think Tillman is still in the league....In fact he might be visiting Orchard Park this very weekend.