RuntheDamnBall Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 They're a hot topic, obviously, but what do borders mean to you? There are strict protectionists who really feel strongly that we need to fortify and close off our borders as much as possible. As for myself, I'm not sure exactly. I'm kind of at an impasse as to what our borders mean. Our forefathers made clear that we are to stand for the equality of all peoples, but we have some regulations (and may redefine them) and requirements for coming in and being a part of that equality. Some (we try not to accept people who make their way by criminal means) are obviously for the better. Some are debatable, and hotly so -- requirements on speaking our common language, for example. A lot of us grew up next to a border that (I posit) didn't mean much in Canada. The differences between us were pretty minimal aside from a lower drinking age that some took advantage of, the *ahem* ballet, taxes, and some goofy cultural asides. I'm certain those who grew up near the Mexican border have different stories to share. What is a border other than a marker of 'difference'? Philosophically, I struggle with the sort of universal principles and ideals our nation is supposed to embody and strive for while maintaining dividing lines that say, to an extent, "you are not a part of this." At the same time, I understand the practicality of maintaining borders and the interests we're trying to protect in doing so. Am I alone here? Honestly, I'm just looking for good discussion. Please, leave all diatribes and cynicism at the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 They're a hot topic, obviously, but what do borders mean to you? There are strict protectionists who really feel strongly that we need to fortify and close off our borders as much as possible. As for myself, I'm not sure exactly. I'm kind of at an impasse as to what our borders mean. Our forefathers made clear that we are to stand for the equality of all peoples, but we have some regulations (and may redefine them) and requirements for coming in and being a part of that equality. Some (we try not to accept people who make their way by criminal means) are obviously for the better. Some are debatable, and hotly so -- requirements on speaking our common language, for example. A lot of us grew up next to a border that (I posit) didn't mean much in Canada. The differences between us were pretty minimal aside from a lower drinking age that some took advantage of, the *ahem* ballet, taxes, and some goofy cultural asides. I'm certain those who grew up near the Mexican border have different stories to share. What is a border other than a marker of 'difference'? Philosophically, I struggle with the sort of universal principles and ideals our nation is supposed to embody and strive for while maintaining dividing lines that say, to an extent, "you are not a part of this." At the same time, I understand the practicality of maintaining borders and the interests we're trying to protect in doing so. Am I alone here? Honestly, I'm just looking for good discussion. Please, leave all diatribes and cynicism at the door. 710731[/snapback] Borders are like religion: something man dreamed up to make himself feel safe and superior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I thought this was an interesting reply: During a recent interview, Prime Minister Tony Blair of Great Britain was asked by a member of parliament as to why he believes so much in America. And does he think America is on the right track? Blair's reply -- A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in and how many want out." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Borders are like religion: something man dreamed up to make himself feel safe and superior. 710736[/snapback] Is you property fenced Debbie, or do you allow any and all intruders (including the sick, pregnant and or gang members) to trespass on your personal property? Then again at your income level, I am certain that you are insulated from those to whom you would allow access beyond our national borders. The poor can deal with this, right? Deb I love ya, but you are a "liberal from afar." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopsGuy Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I thought this was an interesting reply: During a recent interview, Prime Minister Tony Blair of Great Britain was asked by a member of parliament as to why he believes so much in America. And does he think America is on the right track? Blair's reply -- A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in and how many want out." 710739[/snapback] Castro's cigar fell out of his mouth and Kelso (not that Kelso) yelled "BUUUURRRRRNNNNN!!!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Is you property fenced Debbie, or do you allow any and all intruders (including the sick, pregnant and or gang members) to trespass on your personal property? Then again at your income level, I am certain that you are insulated from those to whom you would allow access beyond our national borders. The poor can deal with this, right? Deb I love ya, but you are a "liberal from afar." 710749[/snapback] My yard is fenced to keep my dog from trespassing on my neighbors' property and peeing on their shrubs. I am a good neighbor. If an evildoer wants to open my gate, there's no lock. And there are plenty of evildoers around here. Read the paper and see the kind of crimes that take place in "safe" areas. A fence means nothing to someone who's determined. I live in the home of the brave, not Chickenland where we're afraid to stand up, fight and die for our freedom. Building fences won't stop them. Mending fences might. By the way, we are about to host Tent City in our town again. That's a moving encampment of homeless folks. Would I take one into my house? Probably not, any more than I'd take any stranger unless it was on word of a mutual friend, but I will certainly welcome them back and not be afraid of them. And there still won't be a lock on my fence. By the way my mom got public assistance for awhile when she was left with 5 kids and no job, or appreciable job skills. I've known times of want when I had nothing but a can of peaches in my pantry. I've worked hard and enjoy the benefits of my hard work. The difference between me and many like me is that I know there's a fine line between "us" and "them" and I learned that sharing is a blessed thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I prefer Barnes and Noble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 My yard is fenced to keep my dog from trespassing on my neighbors' property and peeing on their shrubs. I am a good neighbor. If an evildoer wants to open my gate, there's no lock. And there are plenty of evildoers around here. Read the paper and see the kind of crimes that take place in "safe" areas. A fence means nothing to someone who's determined. I live in the home of the brave, not Chickenland where we're afraid to stand up, fight and die for our freedom. Building fences won't stop them. Mending fences might. By the way, we are about to host Tent City in our town again. That's a moving encampment of homeless folks. Would I take one into my house? Probably not, any more than I'd take any stranger unless it was on word of a mutual friend, but I will certainly welcome them back and not be afraid of them. And there still won't be a lock on my fence. By the way my mom got public assistance for awhile when she was left with 5 kids and no job, or appreciable job skills. I've known times of want when I had nothing but a can of peaches in my pantry. I've worked hard and enjoy the benefits of my hard work. The difference between me and many like me is that I know there's a fine line between "us" and "them" and I learned that sharing is a blessed thing... 710768[/snapback] Funny how your sig applies to your post. Or is it irony? "Nothing is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." -- Martin Luther King Jr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 My yard is fenced to keep my dog from trespassing on my neighbors' property and peeing on their shrubs. I am a good neighbor. If an evildoer wants to open my gate, there's no lock. And there are plenty of evildoers around here. Read the paper and see the kind of crimes that take place in "safe" areas. A fence means nothing to someone who's determined. I live in the home of the brave, not Chickenland where we're afraid to stand up, fight and die for our freedom. Building fences won't stop them. Mending fences might. By the way, we are about to host Tent City in our town again. That's a moving encampment of homeless folks. Would I take one into my house? Probably not, any more than I'd take any stranger unless it was on word of a mutual friend, but I will certainly welcome them back and not be afraid of them. And there still won't be a lock on my fence. By the way my mom got public assistance for awhile when she was left with 5 kids and no job, or appreciable job skills. I've known times of want when I had nothing but a can of peaches in my pantry. I've worked hard and enjoy the benefits of my hard work. The difference between me and many like me is that I know there's a fine line between "us" and "them" and I learned that sharing is a blessed thing... 710768[/snapback] What is your address, I'd love to come over with a bunch of my friends and hang out in your yard. I'll assume this is ok with you since you have no problem with people illegally crossing the border on other peoples property. If you try to make me leave I can just sue you for harrassment just like many of the illegals are doing to the evil land owners on the border. I'll probably place some water tanks in your yard too so nobody gets thirsty while trespassing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Borders are like religion: something man dreamed up to make himself feel safe and superior. 710736[/snapback] LOL Liberals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 LOL Liberals. 711055[/snapback] The religion comment is for another argument, but isn't it in a sense true? Borders don't naturally exist, though there are "natural" borders like oceans and rivers that serve as demarcating lines for us. They do in manmade fashion define and differentiate "mine" from "yours," to what end but to feel safe in knowing what's ours, who we are and aren't. Why else would they be associated with protection? Where I find difficulty is in defining something as mine by little other than birthright. At the same time, I recognize the sense of ownership one tends to have and how that projects to nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 The religion comment is for another argument, but isn't it in a sense true? Borders don't naturally exist, though there are "natural" borders like oceans and rivers that serve as demarcating lines for us. They do in manmade fashion define and differentiate "mine" from "yours," to what end but to feel safe in knowing what's ours, who we are and aren't. Why else would they be associated with protection? Where I find difficulty is in defining something as mine by little other than birthright. At the same time, I recognize the sense of ownership one tends to have and how that projects to nation. 711063[/snapback] Borders exist because they are necessary. They define the limits of who is responsible for what. Without borders, what's to stop some Mexican politician from demanding the US government build schools in Sonora? How do you think the Poles felt when their borders were whittled away until their sovreign status ceased to exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Borders exist because they are necessary. They define the limits of who is responsible for what. Without borders, what's to stop some Mexican politician from demanding the US government build schools in Sonora? How do you think the Poles felt when their borders were whittled away until their sovreign status ceased to exist? 711067[/snapback] Agreed. We both think that borders are necessary. Do you think that we should have borders and simply ignore them because of the price of grapes and steaks? I wish that I could understand your position on this whole issue, and I am not being a smartass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted June 20, 2006 Author Share Posted June 20, 2006 Borders exist because they are necessary. They define the limits of who is responsible for what. Without borders, what's to stop some Mexican politician from demanding the US government build schools in Sonora? How do you think the Poles felt when their borders were whittled away until their sovreign status ceased to exist? 711067[/snapback] I don't disagree with you in that respect. I'm just curious as to how the border gets to mean different things when we're looking at Canadians coming in as compared to Mexicans. What about Americans going to Canada to take advantage of the free health care and cheaper prescriptions? (note this is not my voicing support for the Canadian health care system -- I'm aware it has problems and Canadians come here for better specialists, etc). I think the real problem here is not so much an invasion or transgression of our borders -- it's that Mexico lets it happen instead of doing right by its own people, and is an extremely corrupt country that has the gall to try and force our hand. At the same time, we're complicit because we enjoy the results of the cheap labor, as we do around the world. I thought the Tony Blair quote someone offered before was interesting. For all the bitching people tend to do, this really is a pretty great country and it does offer a lot (and i'm not talking about the freebies or social services -- I'm talking about the chance for people who want to work hard to come here and better themselves). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Then do it LEGALLY. Apply for a visa, then a green card and then citizenship. When Mexico doesn't do something , then we have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blzrul Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 What is your address, I'd love to come over with a bunch of my friends and hang out in your yard. I'll assume this is ok with you since you have no problem with people illegally crossing the border on other peoples property. If you try to make me leave I can just sue you for harrassment just like many of the illegals are doing to the evil land owners on the border. I'll probably place some water tanks in your yard too so nobody gets thirsty while trespassing. 711034[/snapback] My ancestors got off a boat in 1658 onto other peoples' land and have hung out there ever since. Do you have an issue with that (other than that it was MY ancestors)? Perhaps yours were still living in caves at that time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnTheRocks Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 My ancestors got off a boat in 1658 onto other peoples' land 711109[/snapback] "first come first served" does not declare ownership of land. you presume that because Indians that inhabited the land when your ancestors arrived that just because they were here first made it theirs. it always has and always will come down to "he who has the most toys, wins". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HereComesTheReignAgain Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 My ancestors got off a boat in 1658 onto other peoples' land and have hung out there ever since. Do you have an issue with that (other than that it was MY ancestors)? Perhaps yours were still living in caves at that time.... 711109[/snapback] I'm sure those "other people" fought for their land and lost. You may not win the battle, but at least have the courage to defend your country or land. If they did not fight to protect their land, they deserved to lose it. I feel that America is worth fighting for, perhaps you do not. If you think this is simply an issue of peacefull peasants working in the fields, take a look at the millions of illegals protesting in the streets demanding that we change our laws to accomodate them. The majority of the flags at the protests were not American, they were Mexican. Millions of foreign citizens making demands to the American government while planting their flag....sounds innocent enough to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 My ancestors got off a boat in 1658 onto other peoples' land and have hung out there ever since. Do you have an issue with that (other than that it was MY ancestors)? Perhaps yours were still living in caves at that time.... 711109[/snapback] "other peoples' land"??? so boarders are b.s., but land ownership based on a first-come, first-served basis is legit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Coli Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 The majority of the flags at the protests were not American, they were Mexican. 711180[/snapback] Lost on many of you who are so vocal on this topic is the fact that not all of the undocumented workers are "mexican". Irish Lobby for Immigration Reform "A lot of people are surprised that the Irish are involved in this issue, but we actually have a very significant undocumented population in proportion to the legal Irish-born population," said Niall O'Dowd, head of the Irish immigration lobby.[...] O'Dowd, a Syosset resident who is publisher of the Manhattan-based Irish Voice newspaper, estimates that half the nation's 50,000 undocumented Irish immigrants live in the tri-state area, with the others in cities including Chicago, Boston and San Francisco. Many of the men work in construction, while the women are nannies. [...] Most have come because Ireland's thriving economy is growing mostly in high-tech areas and excluding many low-skilled workers from the boom. Those who decide to emigrate usually come on tourist or student visas they overstay after they expire, O'Dowd said. They don't stay legally because getting a long-term visa or green card is almost impossible for low-skilled workers, no matter where they come from. Here's a transcript from an interview with an Irish immigration counselor in Boston from 2001. Some 40 Million Americans Claim Irish Heritage KELLEY: What about folks who are still coming? Are the Irish still coming to America, or how are conditions in Ireland, and are they going back or staying put? O'SULLIVAN: Well, the Irish immigration center was founded in Boston in 1989. And this was back in the years where there was thousands and thousands of people coming to the U.S. We saw in the first five years of the 1980's, for example, over 20,000 people emigrated from Ireland each year. This continued through the '80s and through the early '90s when Congressman Morrison and Congressman Brian Donnelly introduced visa programs aimed at helping the undocumented Irish in America. Many of these undocumented workers have become law-abiding, productive members of society, a fact that is not lost on the Irish living in and around Boston. The Boston Irish Reporter: Time to Stand Up And Be Counted A young Irish woman spoke at a recent Dorchester rally for undocumented immigrants. Calling herself an "overstay," she said she entered this country legally with a student visa some 15 years ago, and upon graduation she chose to stay here and live in America. She hoped to win a lottery for a "green card" several times, always with no luck. Still, she has continued to live and work in New York City over these years: "I love this country, I consider it my home," she said. She has worked and paid her taxes, been a productive resident, and in all ways but one she has observed the laws of our society. So she continues to live in the shadows&emdash; an illegal immigrant, one of some 11 million "undocumented aliens" who live with the understanding that, the way things are, they must never go back to their native land again- or if they do, they must say goodbye to America. Forever. Here's more from IrishAbroad.com, covering the immigration rally in NYC. They zero in on one of the "anchor babies" I see villified in this forum every time this comes up. Soon, the Irish demonstrations grew as Brian, a founding member of ILIR [irish Lobby for Immigration Reform], took to the main stage to say nobody was alone in the fight for reform. “The Irish are here with ye today, and we are here to stay. We are all together on this fight regardless of where we come from,” he roared into an appreciative audience. Even little Kelan Fay Welsh, 3, was in fighting mode. He wore a tiny tee that said “Legalize my Mammy and legalize her friends.” The preschooler smiled as dozens of cameras zoomed in on his adorable face. His mother, who did not want to give her name, said it was for her son, an American citizen, that she joined the demonstration. “I want to be able to bring him up in the country he was born and to bring him to see his grandparents in Ireland when he wants. There are friends who he met here but they had to leave because their parents were illegal,” she said. More from an Irish blog (Irish Voices). Last night, in a traditional Irish bar in the Bronx in the heart of the Irish neighborhood, that is being devastated because the Irish who inhabit it can not get greencards, a hero stepped up to the plate. Eugene, an Irish immigrant himself and successful business owner, donated his night's takings at his bar the Catalpa to the Irish Lobby for Immigration Reform. Scrolling down to another entry from the same blog should hit particularly close to some of you from Buffalo: A "robust Irish smuggling ring" operating out of a popular pub in Buffalo has been smuggling dozens of Irish citizens from Canada into the United States for about three years, U.S. court documents show. The attempt by many to describe this as a "mexican invasion" couldn't be further from the truth. There are undocumented, productive, law-abiding workers from almost every country in the world here. I'd love to see the reaction in this country, and this forum for that matter, if all of a sudden 50,000 undocumented Irish workers and their "anchor babies" were rounded up, handcuffed, and deported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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