Raiders Hire Shell

[The Senator]

Why are you one of them who believe we still won't make the playoffs?

600910[/snapback]

Heck no - I think the Bills will be 19 and 0 in 2006/7, and will keep that optimism until they prove me wrong!

 

I doubt that the Raiders will see post-season play.

[The Senator]

Why is it that anyone thinks Jim Kelly wants to be a QB coach, or that he would necessarily be a good one?  Position coaches aren't motivators or strategists, they're teachers, first and foremost.  Jimbo never struck me as a particularly cerebral player.

601180[/snapback]

Actually, it's not that I think he wants to be a QB coach - I was just responding to MBD's question, "Who else would you want...?"

 

On the other hand, I don't think anyone really knows if Jim Kelly wants to be a QB coach until they ask him, interview him, or offer him the job, no?

 

And I agree you that position coaches are teachers, first and foremost (though I think all coaches can also be motivators). I think Jim Kelly would make an excellent teacher coaching one or two players at a position he knows as well (or even better) as anyone.

 

Jimbo may not fall into the category of "cerebral", but I've never thought of football as a very cerebral game, at least from a player's perspective. It's more about preparation, execution, and discipline - and, at the QB position, good instincts. Kelly had all those qualities as a player, and I think he can teach them to JP. And if any of Kelly's other HOF qualities 'rubbed off' on JP - like toughness, attititude, play calling, how to handle teammates in the huddle, ability to read defenses, etc.), well that would be good too. Head coaches and coordinators may need to be cerebral - I don't think players do (unless you're playing chess).

 

Kelly may not want to be QB coach here or anywhere, now or ever. I hope we offer him the job and find out because, while I may be a minority of one, I think he'd be a great QB coach for this particular team at this particular time.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

If we're looking at ex-players to be a QB coach, I'd go with AVP. In general, great players don't mak great coaches, and I think the reason for that is that more often than not, their pure talent was enough to get them to their level and they didn't need to rely on technique as much. But whatever the case, it pretty much holds.

[The Senator]

If we're looking at ex-players to be a QB coach, I'd go with AVP.  In general, great players don't mak great coaches, and I think the reason for that is that more often than not, their pure talent was enough to get them to their level and they didn't need to rely on technique as much.  But whatever the case, it pretty much holds.

601216[/snapback]

Oh I'd have no problem with AVP, either - that would be a great move. (Might screw up Turner Gill's plans at UB, though). I just think Kelly might be the one to penetrate JP's skull and turn him into the QB we think and hope he can be.

 

Would AVP leave UB for the Bills? I think he turned down the QB coach position with the Packers.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Oh I'd have no problem with AVP, either - that would be a great move.  (Might screw up Turner Gill's plans at UB, though).  I just think Kelly might be the one to penetrate JP's skull and turn him into the QB we think and hope he can be.

I'd have Kelly hang-around in a non-coaching role for that. That's more sports psychology than coaching, per se. And again, I don't even know if Kelly WANTS to coach.

Would AVP leave UB for the Bills?  I think he turned down the QB coach position with the Packers.

I don't see why not, the situation with the Packers notwithstanding. I'm sure he'd rather stay in Buffalo, and would rather coach with the Bills.

[Simon]

From a buddy's email to me this morning:

 

"I've been a Raider fan since 1976.  Through good and bad, I've never been ashamed of my team, not even in 1990.....until now.  Hiring back Art Shell???  He couldn't even hold down a line coach position since he was deservedly fired from the Raiders. .....  We will once again have one of the best teams on paper and tank!!!  Here's hoping for 5 & 11."

 

600905[/snapback]

 

If you want to annoy your despondent buddy try this:

Send him a link like this one to provide him an example of the typical kind of garbage roster Art Shell had to work with. Then remind him that Art took that flotsam and jetsam and took it to the postseason 3 times and played above .500 ball with it 4 out of 5 years in a division that boasted John Elway, a SB caliber Chargers team and a tough Chiefs D that was sporting the likes of NeilSmith, DThomas and DaleCarter.

Then not so subtly remind him that after Shell was fired for going 9-7 with that trash roster, the Raiders proceeded to go 19-29 the next three years and didn't top .500 again for 7 years.

Cya

[rockpile]

OK, BE rational. Are you trying to get banned?

 

It is time for Al Davis to sit his boney ass down and let his coaches coach. I do not like the Raiders but have a lot of respect for Art Shell.

 

If you want to annoy your despondent buddy try this:

Send him a link like this one to provide him an example of the typical kind of garbage roster Art Shell had to work with. Then remind him that Art took that flotsam and jetsam and took it to the postseason 3 times and played above .500 ball with it 4 out of 5 years in a division that boasted John Elway, a SB caliber Chargers team and a tough Chiefs D that was sporting the likes of NeilSmith, DThomas and DaleCarter.

Then not so subtly remind him that after Shell was fired for going 9-7 with that trash roster, the Raiders proceeded to go 19-29 the next three years and didn't top .500 again for 7 years.

Cya

601643[/snapback]

[Bill from NYC]

If you want to annoy your despondent buddy try this:

Send him a link like this one to provide him an example of the typical kind of garbage roster Art Shell had to work with. Then remind him that Art took that flotsam and jetsam and took it to the postseason 3 times and played above .500 ball with it 4 out of 5 years in a division that boasted John Elway, a SB caliber Chargers team and a tough Chiefs D that was sporting the likes of NeilSmith, DThomas and DaleCarter.

Then not so subtly remind him that after Shell was fired for going 9-7 with that trash roster, the Raiders proceeded to go 19-29 the next three years and didn't top .500 again for 7 years.

Cya

601643[/snapback]

 

Simon, I have always thought that Shell was a good coach. The things that you say about him are true. Why do you think that he didn't get another job? Racism?

Maybe so, but the Chiefs were tripping over themselves to hire Herm Edwards, an idiot.

 

I have long suspected that perhaps Shell had some personal issues.

I am not a naive person. Sure, a certain amount of racism exists in the NFL, because it does everywhere else. Having said that, are things really THAT bad that a man as qualified as Shell was held back only because of his race? My inclination would be to guess no.

 

Did this scenario ever occur to you?

[tennesseeboy]

Simon, I have always thought that Shell was a good coach. The things that you say about him are true. Why do you think that he didn't get another job? Racism?

Maybe so, but the Chiefs were tripping over themselves to hire Herm Edwards, an idiot.

 

I have long suspected that perhaps Shell had some personal issues.

I am not a naive person. Sure, a certain amount of racism exists in the NFL, because it does everywhere else. Having said that, are things really THAT bad that a man as qualified as Shell was held back only because of his race? My inclination would be to guess no.

 

Did this scenario ever occur to you?

601673[/snapback]

Okay...save this post. Art Shell and the Raiders at the end of next season versus Dick Jauron and the Bills at the end of next season. If I had to bet I'd put my money on Shell.

[Bill from NYC]

Okay...save this post.  Art Shell and the Raiders at the end of next season versus Dick Jauron and the Bills at the end of next season.  If I had to bet I'd put my money on Shell.

601702[/snapback]

 

TB, you might want to read it again. In no way did I say that Shell is not a fine coach. The only thing I questioned was why, with such a good background, he didn't get another job until now.

It is simply hard to believe that race was the only factor. If I am wrong, things are worse than I thought. That's all.

[Orton's Arm]

If you want to annoy your despondent buddy try this:

Send him a link like this one to provide him an example of the typical kind of garbage roster Art Shell had to work with.

601643[/snapback]

I wouldn't exactly call that a garbage roster. Chester McGlockton at DT. Jeff Hostetler--a familiar face in the Bills' first Super Bowl--at QB. Speed at WR with James Jett and Raghib Ismail. Tim Brown as the featured WR. Guys like Kevin Gogan and Steve Wisniewski along the OL. There was some talent there.

 

As for why the Raiders fell off the radar after Shell left, some of it has to do with guys getting old fast. Much like what happened to the Bills between 2004 and 2005.

[stinky finger]

Commitment to excrement.

601135[/snapback]

That's great!!

[tennesseeboy]

Bill, I think Shell is a very good coach with a very good record. Jauron might conceivably be a very good coach who can't win football games. Jauron got hired by the Bills, Shell didn't even get interviewed. I suspect race was a factor. Sure wasn't the won-loss record.

[Bill from NYC]

Bill, I think Shell is a very good coach with a very good record.  Jauron might conceivably be a very good coach who can't win football games.  Jauron got hired by the Bills, Shell didn't even get interviewed.  I suspect race was a factor.  Sure wasn't the won-loss record.

601802[/snapback]

 

Serious charge TB.

Does the same charge apply to ALL of the other teams that didn't hire him or only the Bills? Take the Browns for instance.....are they an example of a team that was racist in the past, but has now changed their ways? Same with KC and Chicago. The Jets had an AA coach. Did they consider Shell?

 

I hope my tone reflects that fact that I am NOT trying to be combative. The subject of Shell not getting a job has puzzled me for a long time. I recall respecting his game decisions and professional demeanor. Plus, he can probably kick the ass of the entire Raider team.

 

This is why I suspected personal issues.

[tennesseeboy]

It might be personal issues, but the only coaching decision I was following intensely was my beloved Bills. I gotta admit I don't see why not even one serious thought was given to any of a number of black coaches with a lot more going for them than Dick Jauron. Shell is certainly one of the ones that came to mind. Maybe I'm wrong and Jauron is better. The proof is in the pudding . Let's see what Jauron does with the Bills versus what Shell does with the Raiders. I'm pulling for the Bills, but I'd rather go into battle with Shell than with Jauron.

[The Senator]

Or it could have something to do with Marv's memories of Shell in the 51-3 AFC title game, where the Bills marched down the Raiders' throats so forcefully on our first possession that Art got confused and had to take a time out barely 2 minutes into the game...

 

"We got after the Raiders from our first possession," Kelly said in his book Armed and Dangerous.. "We rattled off five consecutive "K-Gun" plays and motored deep into Los Angeles territory. Then the Raiders, desperately looking to regroup, called another of those basketball-type time-outs that we had become used to seeing from our opponents. They looked more confused and disoriented than any of the other teams that had previously faced our no-huddle."

 

Bills-Raiders

 

Now that was a great Bills moment, no?

 

I like Art Shell, but I think he got the Raiders' job by default - no one else was crazy enough to work for Al Davis.

 

I certainly don't think racism had anything to do with him not getting an interview with Marv.

[Simon]

Why do you think that he didn't get another job? Racism?

Maybe so, but the Chiefs were tripping over themselves to hire Herm Edwards, an idiot.

 

I have long suspected that perhaps Shell had some personal issues.

I am not a naive person. Sure, a certain amount of racism exists in the NFL, because it does everywhere else. Having said that, are things really THAT bad that a man as qualified as Shell was held back only because of his race? My inclination would be to guess no.

 

I would be inclined to agree with you that race wasn't a factor in Shell's firing. Al Davis is a strange ranger but I just don't get the impression that he's motivated by anything other than success. From what I've read, Davis actually admitted later on that he regretted the move.

I don't know what went on there, but Shell is a proud man and there may indeed have been some personal issues with him and the "maverick".

It also may have been as simple as Davis panicking and firing a good football guy even though he had a history of success. Kind of like Ralph's work this offseason.

Either way I doubt that race was much of, if any of a factor and if it was probably more of a vocal fanbase than AlDavis.

 

I wouldn't exactly call that a garbage roster. Chester McGlockton at DT. Jeff Hostetler--a familiar face in the Bills' first Super Bowl--at QB. Speed at WR with James Jett and Raghib Ismail. Tim Brown as the featured WR. Guys like Kevin Gogan and Steve Wisniewski along the OL.

In McGlockton, Brown, Wiz and Gogan you've probably named the 4 best players on the roster, and imo the only 4 really good players on their roster at the time. Jett and Ismail were one-dimensional babesinthewoods who combined for only 5 TD's and less than 50 catches, Hoss was past the point in his career where he could be a good NFL QB, their big threat in the rungame was the immortal Harvey Williams and McGlockton's running mates on their DLine were guys like Aundray Bruce, Jerry Ball and Anthony Smith.

Playing .500 ball in the NFL with only 4 good players on your entire roster is an awful lot to ask, yet somehow Shell managed to make 3 playoff appearances and go 14 games over .500 during the infancy of the cap era in a division loaded with teams who were legitimate contenders almost every year.

If you can belittle that accomplishment, I'm thinking that you've got some other sort of agenda your pursuing.

[The Dean]

Or it could have something to do with Marv's memories of Shell in the 51-3 AFC title game, where the Bills marched down the Raiders' throats so forcefully on our first possession that Art got confused and had to take a time out barely 2 minutes into the game...

 

601867[/snapback]

 

 

I'm not sure it's fair to say "Art got confused". But the point is well-taken, otherwise.

[Dr. Fong]

His regular season record was 54 - 38 . Thats not too shabby. Went to the plaoyoffs many times. He did a pretty good job actually.

 

Why was he fired anyways ?

600908[/snapback]

 

A team's record and number of playoff appearances don't always equate to them having a good coach. Perhaps those teams were even better than their record refects and Art Shell actually held them back.

[Orton's Arm]

If you can belittle that accomplishment, I'm thinking that you've got some other sort of agenda your pursuing.

602319[/snapback]

You make him sound like the second coming of Vince Lombardi. If he was, why didn't other teams hire him after the Raiders got rid of him? Race? Look at all the other black head coaches hired by teams after Shell was fired. Clearly at least some GMs were willing to hire black coaches. So either Shell has some weird personal issue we don't know about, or else NFL GMs have a different opinion of Shell's accomplishments than you seem to.